Originally Posted by Cromfel
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Thanks for doing some math I can respond to. I'll cover it in a second.
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And why exactly you expect me to be entitled to do it for you? In my eyes you are only trolling just because you can be against me. Nothing less, nothing more. Only because internet gives you that option behind anonymity. If you arent willing to join up for the manaregen conversation by proving your stand, then stay out of it. None at these forums are entitled to prove your wild assumptions wrong, if you spam something completely based on your "long grinding for reputation".
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You made the first claim, which is that Ret paladins grind poorly, and then followed up with numbers with minimal context. Why does it take a full page of discussion before you're willing to use math to back up your claim? This is a theorycraft forum, and math is the primary proof for any claim.
The post I responded to talked about "no manaregen" for pallies, which is flat out false. Paladins have SoW/JoW/BoW at the baseline, which are (in-combat) mana regen abilities. 2 of them are applied once and give a passive (in-combat) bonus for a long period of time.
If you simply said we had limited, non-scaling manaregen, your post would be truthful and I'd have no beef with it.
Okay, you counter that SoW/JoW are no good in grinding, so they might as well not exist. Let's look at the actual numbers.
First off, you say that you do 900 DPS self-buffed, and that you can kill a 5.5k life mob in 7 seconds. You might do 900 raw DPS, but the 72 mob in question has armor, and at least half of your damage is not Holy.
Using your numbers
309 character sheet DPS
CS does 1116 damage per hit (no JotC, 112 DPS@10 seconds now; 186 DPS@6 seconds)
SoC adds 93.1 DPS. (unbuffed melee hit * 70% damage procs * 7 PPM / 60 seconds)
JoC adds 430 damage (using your values without JotC; this is assuming 219 JotC, since you don't specify)
(At full burn, these abilities would yield 570~ DPS on a 30% AC target)
Adjusted damage with 30% crit and 30% AC factored:
281 white DPS
1038 damage per CS
93 121 SoC DPS
430 559 damage per JoC
EDIT: Oops! Forgot crit damage bonus for SoC/JoC. Unfortunately, I don't have time to update the math below, but I think the math gets my point across.
How long does it take you to kill an Aether Ray (5.5k hp)?
Using 1x CS + 1x JoC + SoC + white:
Kill time: (5.5k - 1038 - 430) / (281 + 93) ~= 11 seconds;
Mana Use: 236 + 130 + 280 = 646 mana
Mana Regen: 140 mana from SJ, 79.2 mana from BoW, 39 mana from spirit (2 seconds) = 258.2 mana
Net Mana Use: 427 mana
Using 1x CS + 1x JoW + SoC + white:
Kill time: (5.5k - 1038) / (281 + 93) ~= 12 seconds;
Mana Use 236 + 130 + 280 = 646 mana
Mana Regen: 135 mana from SJ, 86.4 mana from BoW, 209 mana from JoW, 78.5 mana from spirit (4 seconds) = 508.9
Net Mana Use: 137 mana
Using 1x CS + 1x JoC + SoW + white:
Kill time: (5.5k - 1038 - 430) / (281) ~= 14 seconds;
Mana Use: 236 + 130 + 270 = 636 mana
Mana Regen: 140 mana from SJ, 100.8 mana from BoW, 427 mana from SoW (assume 12 PPM, includes CS average proc rate), 117.6 mana from spirit (6 seconds)
Net Mana Use: -149.4 (Net mana gain!)
Using 1x JoC + SoW + white:
Kill time: (5.5k - 430) / (281) ~= 18 seconds;
Mana Use: 130 + 270 = 400 mana
Mana Regen: 140 mana from SJ, 129.6 mana from BoW, 436 mana from SoW, 157 mana from spirit (8 seconds)
Net Mana Use: -462.6 mana
Note: Ignored Benediction for seal costs; Judgement cost is a guess, since I can never remember how much it costs with and without Benediction; Forgot to include Vengeance, but it shouldn't affect results too much; spirit regen numbers are deliberately under-estimated to generate more of a worst-case scenario
CONCLUSION:
Looking at this simplified math,
you could chain together Combo 2 and Combo 3 for net mana GAIN, killing 2 mobs every 26 seconds and ignoring travel time (which adds more spirit/mp5 regen, meaning you can afford to be more liberal with your mana -> use more DPS abilities). Using JoC + SoW (Combo 3) only loses 2 seconds of kill time versus 1x JoW + SoC. (Combo 2)
If you used the mushroom trinket, Combo 2 becomes a net gain in mana, and you can start sprinkling in Combo 1 into your grind rotation liberally. Also note that I've ignored SoC R1 as a potential combo. SoC R1 has borderline retarded efficiency (until Blizzard"fixes" it), which is highly useful for grinding (aiming for highest sustained DPS possible; mana efficiency == double plus good)
13 seconds to kill a mob on average and you're gaining mana. How is Ret grinding horrible? It doesn't match what a warlock can do with fear + DoTs on multi-targets (due to DoT +dmg scaling), but it's certainly respectable - though that really depends on *your* expectations.
What do you consider to be a reasonable grind rate for a Ret paladin?
EDIT Note: I forgot to add in the crit rate damage bonus for SoC/JoC. However, I think that the math still shows how SoW/JoW can be weaved into a rotation for better sustained grinding. Since the math ignores travel time, the reality is that you'll have more mana to do Combo 1 for higher DPS - as long as you're willing to abuse spirit regen in between mobs.