Retribution DPS Theorycraft - Page 51

Mearis · 11/13/07, 5:05 AM

Originally Posted by Cavalier

Using max rank skills? yes

using CS with r1 SoC and no judgement? normally no

Yes, if you use max rank consacration on single targets that's a given. That's like mages spamming arcane blast nonstop.

flyingtoastr · 11/13/07, 6:30 AM

Originally Posted by Mearis

A paladin in full tier5 probably grinds at least 2x as fast as a raid spec'd healer of any class even in full t6 gear. Grinding in wow is incredibly easy, complaining about that really makes you look petty.

Welcome to patch 2.3, where it is actually more efficient to grind as a healer than a ret pally (and yes, I have tried it on the PTR). 2.3 is live, you have your free 800 spell damage, so time to stop whining about how unfair it is for healers.

Originally Posted by Mearis

Do paladins run out of mana on raids with JoW and spamming mana potion every cooldown? I was under the impression that the problem was outside of raids lacking exogenous mana-sources.

Just using numbers we've calculated for a fully raid buffed Paladin (I'm rounding because its very early and I'm tired).

Ret Pallys gain:

Chain Chugging: 100 Mp5
JoW: 100 Mp5
BoW (talented): 50 Mp5
Mana Spring (non-talented): 50 Mp5

Total Gain: 300 Mp5

Our consumption is as follows:

Using max rank SoC and Consecration
CS (6 seconds): 236 mana
SoC VI + Judgement (8 seconds): 243 mana
Consecration VI (8 seconds): 660 mana
-761 mana used per 5 seconds

Total Result: -463 Mp5

Naturally this would lead to "lets downrank to save mana". If you brought everything to the lowest possible rank your consumption and regen would look like this.

Downranking SoC and Consecration to Rank I
CS (6 seconds): 236 mana
SoC I + Judgement (8 seconds): 151 mana
Consecration I (8 seconds): 120 mana
-366 mana used every 5 seconds

Total Result: -68 Mp5

The next logical step is to cut out Consecration.

Cutting out Consecration
CS (6 Seconds): 236 mana
SoC VI + Judgement (8 seconds): 243 mana
-348 mana used every 5 seconds

Total Result: -48 Mp5

If you want to take this to an extreme and cut out as much as possible (no Judgement or Consecration) and downrank SoC you will regen mana, but at a huge cost to DPS.

Absolute Minimum Mana Consumption
CS (6 Seconds): 236 mana
SoC I (30 seconds): 55 mana
-206 mana used every 5 seconds

Total Result: +94 Mp5

Make of it as you will. These of course are very very rough estimates that don't take into account all sorts of extra variables (Spiritual Atunement comes to mind first) but they give you a rough idea of what our regen looks like.

Kris · 11/13/07, 6:36 AM

Cutting out Consecration
CS (6 Seconds): 236 mana
SoC VI + Judgement (8 seconds): 243 mana
-348 mana used every 5 seconds

Total Result: -48 Mp5

TBH you shouldn't spam consecration unless you're regenning huge amounts of mana from SA. I find it silly that people complain they go quickly oom from spamming their most inefficient spell. With this rotation the average retri paladin with 7000 mana will last approximately 730 seconds (12 minutes) before going oom and I find that totally acceptable.

Cromfel · 11/13/07, 6:42 AM

What exactly makes us use R1 spells as main source of damage? This isnt using Consecration at all. Only CS + SoC + JoC.

flyingtoastr · 11/13/07, 6:48 AM

Originally Posted by Kris

TBH you shouldn't spam consecration unless you're regenning huge amounts of mana from SA. I find it silly that people complain they go quickly oom from spamming their most inefficient spell. With this rotation the average retri paladin with 7000 mana will last approximately 730 seconds (12 minutes) before going oom and I find that totally acceptable.

Of course this is true. The thing to remember about Consecration though is that it is one of your largest DPS spells as well. With no spell damage on a Crusader Judged mob (with Sanctity Aura) Consecration VI is 98 damage per second. Consecration I is 35 DPS. That is a lot of extra DPS. I don't think you can say "never use Consecration", because it is a really good spell. The key is finding your sweet spot where you can maximize your DPS but not run OOM until the second the boss drops.

The golden rule of DPS stands. If you have mana left over after a boss dies you weren't pushing hard enough. If you're OOM before a boss goes down you're not being conservative enough.

galzohar · 11/13/07, 7:32 AM

yeah we go OOM much faster than pots+JoW can handle.

So does every other mana based class! The raid-based mana regen (BoW, SPs, totems, mana pots...) are a very significant part of the mana of ALL mana using classes. Unbuffed they will ALL run oom pretty damn fast (compared to average bossfight length of ~10min) even not going all out.

All those mana regen comparisons really don't mean much. What really means something is at the end if you'll test your mobs/hour as a ret paladin and then as another class, you'll probably be getting the ret palladin having way less mobs/hour. Until your test shows otherwise all these arguments about PARTS of the grinding ability are meaningless, as you need to add up all the parts to really see the speed difference, not just say the mana regen is bad and thus the grinding is bad, or anythign ilke that.

Bringing JoW/SoW into use, as shown above, is completely pointless, since you're better off DRINKING than using it (I could guess that result due from plain experience, that's how big the difference is).

Cromfel · 11/13/07, 7:41 AM

Originally Posted by galzohar

All those mana regen comparisons really don't mean much. What really means something is at the end if you'll test your mobs/hour as a ret paladin and then as another class, you'll probably be getting the ret palladin having way less mobs/hour. Until your test shows otherwise all these arguments about PARTS of the grinding ability are meaningless, as you need to add up all the parts to really see the speed difference, not just say the mana regen is bad and thus the grinding is bad, or anythign ilke that.

Bringing JoW/SoW into use, as shown above, is completely pointless, since you're better off DRINKING than using it (I could guess that result due from plain experience, that's how big the difference is).

I have done that testing many times with multiple classes. Feral druid, Shadowpriest, Warlock, Retribution paladin and shockadin. Why does not my results qualify for you? Mobs per hour with Retribution is significantly lower than other classes. Thats one of the very base arguments behind this conversation, and that was countered by "L2P" what seemed to be issue on the accusing player instead of me.

A: Our grinding is extremely inefficient compared to other classes B: We dont have any manaregen abilities or ways to get closer to other classes. Just see flyingtoastr example for reference, it is absolutely stupid to judge JoW on monsters. it is abou 10-20 seconds that it takes for you to kill monster, where you would need 30sec or more to even gain the mana back that you have wasted on the judgement of wisdom.

Reason behind the conclusion:
#1: Testing multiple classes ingame with equal gear level and evaluating their performance
#2: Calculating theoretical possibilities of performing better
#3: Double checking the theory ingame to verify results

Conclusion: We need some kind of manaregen tool similiar to Shamanistic Rage, or just little increase in base mana regeneration.

Mearis · 11/13/07, 7:48 AM

Grinding is absolutely not something the game is balanced around, much like 1 vs 1 PvP.

Since you are absolutely interested in achieving grinding parity (determined as amounts of mobs killed/hour) between classes, I suppose you are in favour of very very large nerfs to protection paladins AoE'ing mobs on top of black temple seeing as absolutely nobody else comes close to matching their killing speed?

Cromfel · 11/13/07, 7:51 AM

Originally Posted by Mearis

Grinding is absolutely not something the game is balanced around, much like 1 vs 1 PvP.

Since you are absolutely interested in achieving grinding parity (determined as amounts of mobs killed/hour) between classes, I suppose you are in favour of very very large nerfs to protection paladins AoE'ing mobs on top of black temple seeing as absolutely nobody else comes close to matching their killing speed?

Who are you to decide what we can talk about our class performance? Are you moderator here, if our conversation was something that is not suitable for these boards, I suppose you can delete the posts. Incase you are moderator here.

Grinding is absolutely something the game is balanced around, much like 5 vs 5 PvP.

See what I did there?

flyingtoastr · 11/13/07, 7:56 AM

Originally Posted by Mearis

Since you are absolutely interested in achieving grinding parity (determined as amounts of mobs killed/hour) between classes, I suppose you are in favour of very very large nerfs to protection paladins AoE'ing mobs on top of black temple seeing as absolutely nobody else comes close to matching their killing speed?

This kind of crap belongs on the Blizzard forums. Keep it out of our topic.

Mearis · 11/13/07, 8:05 AM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

This kind of crap belongs on the Blizzard forums. Keep it out of our topic.

It isn't 'your topic' and I am not trying to moderate or anything, I am simply suggesting that trying to balance WoW around any type of grinding parity is absolutely absurd because the differences are staggering. It is like 1 vs 1 PvP, it is absolutely completely imbalanced, and Blizzard has never shown absolutely any willingness to balance it, and it is part of the reason why certain roles are almost always shunned by a large percentage of the gaming populace.

Every class runs out of mana quickly if they use max dps rotations on raids, this is normal and balanced. A lot of classes are completely hamstrung in PvP if they are drained or once they run out of mana. and I don't see Blizzard changing it anytime soon.

If someone wants to suggest that there should be an effort to balance the grinding ability of different classes, the first step would be to massively nerf affliction warlocks and protection paladins, since they are by far the biggest outliers - but since Blizzard is completely not interested, as long as grinding remains trivial for every class, they won't make any changes that only affect that facet of gameplay.

Cromfel · 11/13/07, 8:12 AM

Originally Posted by Mearis

It isn't 'your topic' and I am not trying to moderate or anything, I am simply suggesting that trying to balance WoW around any type of grinding parity is absolutely absurd because the differences are staggering. It is like 1 vs 1 PvP, it is absolutely completely imbalanced, and Blizzard has never shown absolutely any willingness to balance it, and it is part of the reason why certain roles are almost always shunned by a large percentage of the gaming populace.

Every class runs out of mana quickly if they use max dps rotations on raids, this is normal and balanced. A lot of classes are completely hamstrung in PvP if they are drained or once they run out of mana. and I don't see Blizzard changing it anytime soon.

If someone wants to suggest that there should be an effort to balance the grinding ability of different classes, the first step would be to massively nerf affliction warlocks and protection paladins, since they are by far the biggest outliers - but since Blizzard is completely not interested, as long as grinding remains trivial for every class, they won't make any changes that only affect that facet of gameplay.

It is extremely easy to narrow the cap between classes if you actually bothered to think about possible solutions instead of just post this crap. You dont have point, anywhere in your post. Only your own assumptions how this game should be designed and how you think its designed. Class grinding longevity has nothing to do with general pvp balance. You are trying to say that we shouldnt get fixed because ability X is not balanced over Y. Those 2 things have zero relation. Who have said we are trying to create perfect balance anyway? We are only saying that our class performance is crippled, and we are saying that it needs some kind of fix. All mana based classes have ways of improving their longevity, while Paladin has zero ways.

Why dont you actually start to think about what you are saying, or just leave in peace? If you dont have anything to contribute than just WoW official forum style generalizations and completely irrelevant comparisons, you shouldnt post at all.

Edit: Nevermind, you already received infraction for it so I think you should take the hint.

Meuble · 11/13/07, 8:17 AM

Hey everyone. Rough couple of weeks, couldn't get any test done, I will *hopefully* get 3 or 4 wws links for a ret pal with savagery by the night. Hopefully.

About the argument going on: I couldn't care less about grinding! I've been holy for way too long, everytime I spec ret I feel like golds, rep and items really fall in my hand by themselves. Might the whole "woo hoo, I do crazy crits" syndrom talking tho. Anyway, I've gout trouble considering this an issue. Holy pals will probably farm better at 2.3 but, well... good for them.

Back to what I still consider an issue: What the hell with the S3 stuff? Since they got all the SD out I assumed that there was gonna be a str > sd or ap > sd or whatever > sd thing given to pallys. Aparently there's not. Am I the only one surprised (to say the very least) about this?

edit: Wouldn't be a first "very odd" thing we would have to deal with however >< next blizzcon "ret dependance on SD will be lessened as soon as wotlk hits". Hurray!

Cromfel · 11/13/07, 8:25 AM

Originally Posted by Meuble

Back to what I still consider an issue: What the hell with the S3 stuff? Since they got all the SD out I assumed that there was gonna be a str > sd or ap > sd or whatever > sd thing given to pallys. Aparently there's not. Am I the only one surprised (to say the very least) about this?

It would be very odd if they didnt add any conversion talent. From raw numbers we lost almost 50% of stats in the process, 154 spelldamage and 252 armor penetration is equal to 156 strength, and we received 82 str. So we got reduction in damage and reduction in combat durability due loss in +healing. Thats how WoW itemization works with split stats. But that doesnt justify any reason for nerfing the set just for the sake of doing so. At least I can not currently see the reasoning for this change, as we gained nothing in the process.

It gives even more edge for Blood Elf paladins, since their SoB doesnt gain anything from Spell damage. But yet again I dont see how faction restricted seal should be objective for tailoring our class gear. Hence leaving Alliance paladins pretty much with empty hands. Thats what I have to say about the itemization change. If anyone has some obvious point I have missed, I am more than willing to hear it.

Blizzard developers mentioned that they are trying to lessen our reliance in multiple stats. But currently I dont see any reduction in reliance, only seeing removal of stats that try to fulfil the spell damage dependancy. Tier sets also try to fulfil that dependancy, but for example ring/neck/back slots and trinket slots do not give us that option to follow our class design.

flyingtoastr · 11/13/07, 8:33 AM

Originally Posted by Mearis

It isn't 'your topic' and I am not trying to moderate or anything, I am simply suggesting that trying to balance WoW around any type of grinding parity is absolutely absurd because the differences are staggering. It is like 1 vs 1 PvP, it is absolutely completely imbalanced, and Blizzard has never shown absolutely any willingness to balance it, and it is part of the reason why certain roles are almost always shunned by a large percentage of the gaming populace.

Its not just grinding. I have shown you twice now with pure mathematics that our mana regen whether soloing or raiding is bad to nonexistent. Look at all those restoring abilities that I listed for our regen capabilities. All of those are outside buffs. We have no Shadowfiend, no Dark Pact, no Shamanistic Rage. We don't even have any Meditation or Dreamstate talents. We have no regen outside of what buffs we get. Let me say that one more time for emphasis. We have no regen outside of what buffs we get. Is it so much to ask that Paladin's get some sort of regen tool so we aren't forced to completely cut out spells from our DPS cycle to prevent going OOM?

The reason this discussion has been focusing on grinding is because all of our problems are magnified there. Since all our regen is coming from outside buffs, we actually have pretty much nothing to keep us from going OOM very quickly in a soloing situation.

Originally Posted by Meuble

Back to what I still consider an issue: What the hell with the S3 stuff? Since they got all the SD out I assumed that there was gonna be a str > sd or ap > sd or whatever > sd thing given to pallys. Aparently there's not. Am I the only one surprised (to say the very least) about this?

I'm remaining hopeful that 2.4 will bring additional changes. 2.3 was a huge patch to begin with, and from what they've done the developers are trying to meet the issues for us at the very least. I consider 2.3 a major success regardless of the lack of AP > SD, our two major issues were handled cleanly and efficiently (CS cooldown and Threat Reduction). I like to think optimistically anyway.