nm, I retract my Stormherald vs. Lionheart champion question, as it has been answered several times int his thread (LH slightly edges Stormherald in PVE dps, but SH has stamina that is handy in some situations as well = personal choice).
I will leave the question standing for those that have progressed far beyond my meager SSC/TK experience, though. How quickly in T3 content are SH or LH replaced by simple raid boss drops, if ever?
Archimonde ([Cataclysm's Edge]) and Reliquary of Souls ([Torch of the Damned]) are the only two bosses in T3 content that drop a feasible replacement. One could argue the axe off Teron Gorefiend ([Soul Cleaver]) is as well, but not over the 3rd tier of crafted weapons IMO.
Originally Posted by Cathmor
If you plug your stats into maxdps.com and for hit rating put in enough to be hit capped, it no longer rates hit rating as high.
While this is true, I find armor penetration is rated extremely high, and again as a blood elf the whole seal of blood thing not working is a huge downer, causing spell damage to be rated too highly.
I apologize in advance if this horse has been beaten.
Is Seal of Vengeance a waste of time/mana to weave into a spell rotation? I'm thinking of stacking 5 at the beginning of a fight, then moving on to seal of command and getting hits in every so often with SoV up to refresh it.
Bliz: why is SoV gimped. Let Crusader strike refresh it. Kthx.
edit: I wanna be an emo paladin and hurt myself. Lil help here with SoB?
Last edited by Saltycracker : 12/18/07 at 2:26 PM.
Its not gimped... from my understanding it is far and away the best tanking seal in the game... alliance get a protadin seal, horde gets a retadin seal. FIXT?
I am not quite sure our prot colleagues would agree...
It's better than SoR unless you have a massive amount of spelldamage, but it's only really useful against certain bosses. If you can't refresh the stack reliably for whatever reason (usually movement or impairment) it's really bad. But it's situationally awesome.
Both seals should be available to both factions, given how good they can be in those builds. That they aren't shows you how poorly thought out the paladin class has been for a while; no fights have been considered with SoV or SoB in mind.
Its not gimped... from my understanding it is far and away the best tanking seal in the game... alliance get a protadin seal, horde gets a retadin seal. FIXT?
SoV is theoretically the highest TPS seal in the game. In practice, it falls far short. Because of boss resist rates and lack of spell hit, misses/parries/dodges, and a lack of a gaurenteed proc chance with anything slower than a 3.0 speed weapon it can be very difficult to maintain a stack on any given boss. SoR is still the tanking seal of choice.
So Horde get an amazingly powerful ret seal and alliance get... something to keep rogues from vanishing in PvP (though if you're not laying down the Rank I consecrates you deserve to be double cheap shotted anyway). Good game.
I'm trying to create some macros for castsquences for better timings of spell rotations, but i've heard some spells like Hammer of Wrath reset the Swing Timer. Mainly trying to time a crusader strike judgement reseal within the 1.5 sec GCD, without getting an auto-attack unsealed
Does anyone know what other spells reset the swing timer?
Main one's i'm wondering about are:
Concecration
Exorcism
Hammer of Wrath
Hammer of Justice
Repentance (i know it stops auto-attack, so by stoping auto attack will the next swing happen 3.8 secs later)
I'm trying to create some macros for castsquences for better timings of spell rotations, but i've heard some spells like Hammer of Wrath reset the Swing Timer. Mainly trying to time a crusader strike judgement reseal within the 1.5 sec GCD, without getting an auto-attack unsealed
Does anyone know what other spells reset the swing timer?
Main one's i'm wondering about are:
Concecration
Exorcism
Hammer of Wrath
Hammer of Justice
Repentance (i know it stops auto-attack, so by stoping auto attack will the next swing happen 3.8 secs later)
TY for your time.
Instant cast abilities do not reset the swing timer. As for not getting an autoattack w/out a seal, I recommend a swingtimer (I use Quartz). Personally I use the following macro for judge/reseal...
#showtooltip Judgement
/cast Judgement
/cast Seal of Blood
Watching the swingtimer I time my clicks of the judge/reseal macro soon after a swing prioritizing CS first of course (judgeing and getting the new seal up before your next swing will happen).
So Horde get an amazingly powerful ret seal and alliance get... something to keep rogues from vanishing in PvP (though if you're not laying down the Rank I consecrates you deserve to be double cheap shotted anyway). Good game.
Actually... With SoB getting through CoS, we are also better to keep them from vanishing than you are. Good game indeed :P
How exactly is class specific spell related to race specific racials? Should we also mention Dwarfs? No, lets not go there. Those 2 have no relation. Current situation is like Horde shamans whould have Bloodlust that only effects melee speed, and Alliance shamans would have Heroism that only effects spell casting speed. The arguing would be enormous. Think of an advantages over healing scenarios that Alliance would have. We have similiar situation going with SoV versus SoB, in a different environment. Even when SoV is Retribution seal, it is considered as tanking spell. Where SoB is considered as pure DPS seal.
I think the closest thing the SoV versus SoB argument resembles is the old Fear Ward problems. Its the same kind of thing, one faction having a vastly superior skill to the other. It isn't a mandatory ability for every encounter, but it makes things a lot easier. I think having nice little flavor differences between factions and races is a very good idea, but something as game breaking as SoB or Fear Ward really shouldn't be confined to one race.
I really hope Blizzard either gives SoB to both factions (of course renaming it for alliance, the whole Blood thing doesn't really work for us) or fix SoV to either be a guaranteed proc or unresistable (which would make it a much better tanking seal). Or fix Seal of Command to be useful, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.
Originally Posted by CaptBooyah
1.25% expertise racial... yes please..
Don't get me started on Tauren bear tanks. Racials are an entirely different topic.
I had some questions, at work so I can't check the spreadsheet:
I specced ret yesterday as my guild was short on DPS for the night (11 healers, though) and I'm hoping that they'll let me stay and play around with it. I'm primarily holy though my ret gear isn't half bad, just need new boots, cloak, trinkets, and I need to enchant everything.
Are the season 3 gloves a massive upgrade over pillager's gauntlets?
I'm almost hit capped (5.5% or something before precision), would it be better to get the str/int helm enchant or the ap/hit one?
Also, what unbuffed stats should I be shooting for to be competitive against t6 geared DPS?
I had some questions, at work so I can't check the spreadsheet:
I specced ret yesterday as my guild was short on DPS for the night (11 healers, though) and I'm hoping that they'll let me stay and play around with it. I'm primarily holy though my ret gear isn't half bad, just need new boots, cloak, trinkets, and I need to enchant everything.
Are the season 3 gloves a massive upgrade over pillager's gauntlets?
I'm almost hit capped (5.5% or something before precision), would it be better to get the str/int helm enchant or the ap/hit one?
Also, what unbuffed stats should I be shooting for to be competitive against t6 geared DPS?
The season 3 gloves are a must. I cant think of a scenario where they wouldn't be better.
Get a Darkmoon: Crusade card if you are thinking about staying ret. Its expensive, but its the best ret trinket save maybe the Dragonspine Trophy.
Personally I am over the hitcap with no gems, so I use the str/int enchant. Pretty much all the gear in T6 comes with more than enough hit, and if not you can always gem it. Also, snag a relentless earthstorm diamond if you can.
In terms of stats: ~1850 AP, 30-35% crit, hit capped, expertise helps a lot if you can swing it. Spell damage is pretty marginal, but if you have some tier gear, that should be enough.
I have a Question about BT exalted trinket for Paladins Ashtongue Talisman of Zeal - Items - World of Warcraft. It scales with vengeance and sanctity aura and it does 155 damage/2 sec with both up. That means 620/16 sec->38,75 dps. Ok sometimes you can get double proc and sometimes no procs for a while but nevertheless it seems to be pretty nice. What do you think about it?
A small update. Several weeks back I posted on this thread about advice on talents and that for being ret since I was having hard issues proving to my guild that ret can work, and to keep bringing me. I am happy to report on SSC Hydross to Kara nights I can push 800+ dps, similar in TK. We even killed vashj recently (First kill horde side on durotan) and I have been ret the entire time except one raid where we had a complete lack of healers. Been awesome recently and to those that gave advice previously thanks a lot. Done with most of my gear as well from SSC/TK but a few upgrades left to get : )).
This meant "While we're whinging about something we don't have..." but I guess its a sore spot none the less.
At either rate, I like the variations across races/classes and I think their should be more of it. I also agree with the buffing of SoV to support the notion that Alliance paladins aren't as dementedly crazed on retribution (in the concept sense, not game talented) as their illgotten-power crazed elvish brethren. =]
I'm stumped. I cant choose between Executioner or Mongoose for my Soul Cleaver. I would typically go for the mongoose since I'm a BE and the haste proc helps out Sob a ton. The only reason I'm considering Executioner now is because I have a nice amount of armor pen already unbuffed. With Soul cleaver, in my raid gear I have exactly 777 armor pen(lucky me, /rolleyes). We use FF, curse of reck and Imp EA since we dont use warrior mt's. Thats alot of armor reduction already. Will it outdps the mongoose enchant at this point?
I think debating the weapon enchant topic further is equivalent to beating a dead horse at this point. I'll sum it up by saying you have two options: toy with the spreadsheet and find your answer that way, or pick the prettier enchant. I think the overall difference is minimal at best. I prefer mongoose over executioner simply because executioner doesn't scale as well on higher-armor targets, but its great for pvp vs clothies.
I would like to see more discussion about the Ashtongue Talisman of Zeal. Here is what I can put together:
1. It is holy damage.
2. It is 30dps base if you judge ever 8 seconds exactly.
3. Theoretically it should do (480/8)*.5*1.3*1.1*1.02*1.05 damage with 3/3 vengeance, Sanctity Aura, and Misery. That should be 46 dps, theoretically way more than any other trinket.
Now the questions for those that actually have it:
1. What does it ACTUALLY scale with? Arg tends to think that he wasn't getting this level of damage from scaling.
2. Is it resistable?
3. Does it have the refresh on CS bug ala Libram of Avengement?
You assume a perfect uptime for it which is hugely inaccurate. First, a successful proc on a judgement will not put a new debuff but simply refresh the time of the already ticking one. Second, in a 25 person raid it will be pushed off the mob all the time by other debuffs. It's really great on paper but quite lacking in practice unfortunately.
You assume a perfect uptime for it which is hugely inaccurate. First, a successful proc on a judgement will not put a new debuff but simply refresh the time of the already ticking one. Second, in a 25 person raid it will be pushed off the mob all the time by other debuffs. It's really great on paper but quite lacking in practice unfortunately.
The debuff lasts 8 seconds. Under perfect judging conditions, the debuff will drop at the same time your judgement cooldown comes up. Buffed with Vengeance, Misery, Sanctity Aura, and Crusade, the proc will deal 167.4 damage every 2 seconds, or 669.8 damage every proc. Since a proc occurs every other judgement, and judgements occur every 9 seconds in a good dps cycle, the trinket deals 669.8/18=37.2 dps. However it has the disadvantage of being a debuff which can both knock off better debuffs (what isn't better than a 37.2 dps dot?) and be knocked off by other debuffs.
I think debating the weapon enchant topic further is equivalent to beating a dead horse at this point. I'll sum it up by saying you have two options: toy with the spreadsheet and find your answer that way, or pick the prettier enchant. I think the overall difference is minimal at best. I prefer mongoose over executioner simply because executioner doesn't scale as well on higher-armor targets, but its great for pvp vs clothies.
For me it depends on my weapon.
Since soul cleaver is the best that's dropped for me, I slapped executioner on it to add to my existing armor ignore.
If the torch drops, i'll probably put mongoose on it.
If the archimonde sword drops, executioner (or maybe because of its speed, i might even consider savagery)
However it has the disadvantage of being a debuff which can both knock off better debuffs (what isn't better than a 37.2 dps dot?) and be knocked off by other debuffs.
Because of this, i know it's not even an option for me.
We have debuffs being pushed off constantly.
12/18/07, 10:52 AM
Racials are an entirely different topic.
