Retribution DPS Theorycraft - Page 52

Prepared · 11/13/07, 9:14 AM

If I may derail this section of the thread slightly... I was looking at replacing my [Violet Signet of the Master Assassin] with a [Shapeshifter's Signet] (both with +12 spell damage), because - with my racial - it would round down to having 10 total Expertise points.

I'm already hit-capped with the gear I have, and we raid with a druid that has Improved Faerie Fire... I'll have about 37% crit raid buffed, and something like 2300 AP. Has anyone yet calculated in the estimated DPS increase from having fewer attacks dodged? I noticed v23 of the spreadsheet (that I can't load all the way, anyhow) has nothing in the WE column from our racial, and putting 5 in just gives me about a 12 DPS boost - and it also doesn't have that ring yet.

galzohar · 11/13/07, 10:13 AM

Cromfel my post was *supposed* to support your testing as opposed to the people showing just parts of what affects grinding, sorry if it didn't come out in the way I posted it.

My point is that as actual experience here shows paladins grind slow, and just testing mana regen abilities, same as just testing DPS values, is not enough to show how fast a class is grinding, which is what many other people here were bringing up as both claims to why "paladins grind fine" and "paladins grind slow", while those claims were really not making any point as they only take less than 1/2 of what grinding is about.

At least 15% move speed increase up from 8% would be a rather noticeable, although small, increase in grinding speed. Of course if you don't have anyone in the raid with imp BoM (or the imp BoM guy is also doing imp BoW or kings on guys that need BoM as well), picking up PoJ isn't too viable. If you don't have to spec imp BoM, though, you can easily pick it up too. Then again you want imp BoM for a soloing spec, yet I still think 2/5 BoM 3/3 PoJ should grind faster than 5/5 BoM and a 8% speed increase enchant on boots.

Cromfel · 11/13/07, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by galzohar

Cromfel my post was *supposed* to support your testing as opposed to the people showing just parts of what affects grinding, sorry if it didn't come out in the way I posted it.

Sorry, I simply misunderstood your intentions. I appology

Originally Posted by galzohar

My point is that as actual experience here shows paladins grind slow, and just testing mana regen abilities, same as just testing DPS values, is not enough to show how fast a class is grinding, which is what many other people here were bringing up as both claims to why "paladins grind fine" and "paladins grind slow", while those claims were really not making any point as they only take less than 1/2 of what grinding is about.

At least 15% move speed increase up from 8% would be a rather noticeable, although small, increase in grinding speed. Of course if you don't have anyone in the raid with imp BoM (or the imp BoM guy is also doing imp BoW or kings on guys that need BoM as well), picking up PoJ isn't too viable. If you don't have to spec imp BoM, though, you can easily pick it up too. Then again you want imp BoM for a soloing spec, yet I still think 2/5 BoM 3/3 PoJ should grind faster than 5/5 BoM and a 8% speed increase enchant on boots.

I think Malan (Or some other Shaman) Had pretty well explained information about speed enchants and their effects in DPS. It must have been in the Shaman megathread.

galzohar · 11/13/07, 10:25 AM

Calculating the effect on DPS should be really really easy... If you spend 10% of your time moving to a target, 8% speed increase would result in 0.8% DPS increase. Of course you this would have slight effects on your actual 10% of time spent moving, but it'll change the 0.8% by an insignificant number ("second order" correction).

Friski · 11/13/07, 10:32 AM

Great thread, with a lot of useful information. I was curious to see if it would be possible to get [Furious Gizmatic Goggles] added into the spreadsheet? Basically because that is all I have/had available to me up to this point and I would like to see what upgrades would benefit me the most before aquiring them and finding out differently. Also if it would be possible to add that ring mentioned a few posts up, the Shapeshifters signet now that it has weapon expertise.

Fiola · 11/13/07, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by Cromfel

"What do you consider to be a reasonable grind rate for a Ret paladin?"

Thats the question what you need to answer. Im still not entitled to do your homework. I have done mine. Ingame testing multiple classes, theory behind our own manaconsumption and double checking them ingame to verify results.

Oh, I'm happy with my grind rate. I've also done my homework to be reasonably efficient with it, given the constraints of my class.

Can it be improved? Sure. Does it need improving? I don't think so.

You say it needs improving. *You* need to do *one* more step beyond simply observing, "this other class can grind faster". Every class has something they can do better than other classes, so handing out buffs based on comparison alone would yield homogenized classes.

What is "enough"? Do Ret paladins need a 100% grinding speed buff? 200%?

Where do you show this conclusion and whats the base of this assumption? Is it safe to say just you just draw that conclusion out of air, since you dont have any 1st hand experience?

The entire math post that you're replying to?

Perhaps I need to use more bolds and italics just for you to read my damn math.

Originally Posted by Cromfel

Your "Mana Efficient" Grinding rotations:

Using SoC 1x + 1x CS + 1x JoC + SoW + white:
Kill time: (5.5k - 1038 - 430) / (281) ~= 14 seconds;
Mana Use: 280 + 236 + 130 + 270 = 916 mana
Mana Regen: 140 mana from SJ, 100.8 mana from BoW, 427 mana from SoW (assume 12 PPM, includes CS average proc rate), 117.6 mana from spirit (6 seconds) = 785.4
Your Net Mana Use: -149.4 (Net mana gain!)
Real Net Mana Use: 130.6

Using SoC 1x + 1x JoC + SoW + white:
Kill time: (5.5k - 430) / (281) ~= 18 seconds;
Mana Use: 280 + 130 + 270 = 680 mana
Mana Regen: 140 mana from SJ, 129.6 mana from BoW, 436 mana from SoW, 157 mana from spirit (8 seconds) = 862.6
Your Net Mana Use: -462.6 mana
Real Net Mana Use: -182.6 mana

Awww, it's cute what you did here.

Do you understand that the point of the grind rotation is to chain them together?

You fight one mob, you judge, you re-seal. When the mob dies, you still have 20 seconds left on your seal, and you fight your next mob. Judge, re-seal. Rinse, repeat.

Un-necessary sealing wastes mana and increases downtime (eventually).

The point of my math isn't to prove that Paladins absolutely don't need mana regen buffs. My point is that they *do* have (grinding) mana regen. You haven't done any of this *simple* homework, how do you expect Blizzard to give you buffs?

Dev A: "They want mana regen buffs"
Dev B: "How are their existing mana regen abilities deficient?"
Dev A: "Dunno, they want buffs cause Shadow Priests and warlocks can grind better"
Dev B: " ... "

You are grinding 100 monsters in average of 1600 seconds, while using your zero managain/manaloss rotations that would keep your grinding infinetely up mana wice. But you still have to heal from time to time. Lets say you spend 1 HL every 2 monsters (about 2800 healed monsters dealing 87 dps to you) thats 131 mana consumed for healing. Meaning you would still need to drink 4 times giving you extra downtime of 105 seconds.

I think I've adequately explained how your addition to my rotations are invalid.

For this next calculation, I will use my original math, assuming a 5.7k mana pool.

Combo 1:
10.7 seconds, -427 mana per mob -> 13.3 mobs or 143 seconds of grinding till OOM.
Drink for 25 seconds

Cycle Time: 168 seconds
Kill rate: 13.3 mobs per 168 seconds

vs.

Weaving Combo 2 + 3
26 seconds per 2 mobs, or 13 seconds per mob; net mana gain from this cycle

Cycle time: Indefinite

Kill rate: 11 mobs per 143 seconds
Kill rate: 12.9 mobs per 168 seconds

There does seem to be a kill rate penalty using the weaving combo, but you're also gaining mana overall and do not have to sit and drink.

If you'd like to seize this as an "AHA!" point, you can say my math proves that using max ability spam + drinking yields a 3% increase in mob kill rate compared to using SoW/JoW weaving.

We're still ignoring travel time, which I'd rather not bother with, since that's highly variable. And I think this thread has had enough of "grinding theorycraft". I made my point, take it as you will.

You "think" that the math still shows how SoW/JoW can be weaved into a rotation for better sustained grinding, since when these forums are used to throw these wild assumptions as facts, even when the reality is different? If you dont know how it works, dont post. Calculate how things work and then post if you are sure about your results. Grinding is field test what has large margin of error. If you WWS logged your grinding periods, evaluated the results from your grinding periods. Calculated them and then double checked the theory by another testing period, then you should post your results. Just like I did. You havent done anything but "You think", that grinding experiment where your ingame results only give you rotation that allows you to grind infinitely without drinking, are "developed techniques". Thats only finding lazy way, thats not finding efficient way.

I did this math first, and then I used it when grinding.

Feel free to denigrate how this is "just theorycraft". You countered my posts with "just theorycraft". The point is that the math shows us possibilities. In particular, I kept this math simplified for your sake, since you seemed to have never seriously considered the possibilities of using SoW + JoW while grinding.

Have a nice day.

I will, you too.

Habaka · 11/13/07, 11:12 AM

After playing a rogue to 70, Warrior to 70 and done some grinding with them and seeing how my brother plays his mage...

I agree with Cromfel also.

Ret paladins have... atleast by just observing, lowest damage, goes fastest to a state where he needs to drink / eat and ofcourse since they do it fastest, also most frequently.

Edit: Oh and I dont really see JoW and SoW as a fix, since atleast for my state of mind, that takes waaaay too much damage off, so that killing mobs becomes very very tedious...

I'd rather buy water and food from a vendor and eat / drink every now and then.

flyingtoastr · 11/13/07, 11:12 AM

On the note of Weapon Expertise, I've seen a lot of conflicting reports on boss dodge and parry chances. Some people have set them as low as 5%, and I've seen some estimates as high as 12%. Does anyone know how much expertise we would need to be capped? Obviously any amount of it will be a DPS gain, but where is the point where you can push parry and dodges off the table?

And a quick question for those long time Ret Vets. My first raid as ret is going to be TK to get a few new recruits atuned. On the Kael fight is picking up a Devestation worth it or should I stick with my Skillherald? Also, during the gravity lapses in phase 5 should I bother throwing heals or just worry about keeping alive?

Sapp · 11/13/07, 11:42 AM

Dodge is usually low and normal, 5.6%-6% or so from bosses.

Parry is often high, ~14% or so from many bosses.

Don't attack from the front!

Kyne · 11/13/07, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

And a quick question for those long time Ret Vets. My first raid as ret is going to be TK to get a few new recruits atuned. On the Kael fight is picking up a Devestation worth it or should I stick with my Skillherald? Also, during the gravity lapses in phase 5 should I bother throwing heals or just worry about keeping alive?

Devastation is worth it, but you're going to have to pace yourself and keep a wary eye on the threat meter since you will be seeing some unusually large numbers. In my experience on Phase 5 when I was Retribution, I would find a good spot for myself and toss heals on targets who required more immediate attention (use your judgment here).

myth123 · 11/13/07, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

Its not just grinding. I have shown you twice now with pure mathematics that our mana regen whether soloing or raiding is bad to nonexistent. Look at all those restoring abilities that I listed for our regen capabilities. All of those are outside buffs. We have no Shadowfiend, no Dark Pact, no Shamanistic Rage. We don't even have any Meditation or Dreamstate talents. We have no regen outside of what buffs we get. Let me say that one more time for emphasis. We have no regen outside of what buffs we get. Is it so much to ask that Paladin's get some sort of regen tool so we aren't forced to completely cut out spells from our DPS cycle to prevent going OOM?

PvE aside, the complete lack of mana regen in a PvP environment is one of the greatest reasons (perhaps THE) retribution paladins are highly undesirable in arenas right now.

That and crusader strike is really just a glorified auto attack (actually weaker than auto attack with zero spell dmg on our gear)

Cromfel · 11/13/07, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by Habaka

After playing a rogue to 70, Warrior to 70 and done some grinding with them and seeing how my brother plays his mage...

I agree with Cromfel also.

Ret paladins have... atleast by just observing, lowest damage, goes fastest to a state where he needs to drink / eat and ofcourse since they do it fastest, also most frequently.

Edit: Oh and I dont really see JoW and SoW as a fix, since atleast for my state of mind, that takes waaaa ytoo much damage off, so that killing mobs becomes very very tedious...

I'd rather buy water and food from a vendor and eat / drink every now and then.

Ill be damned, everyone agrees with me except 1 individual who says he dont have experience to back up hes observations. Fascinating, everyone so far who have said they have experience came to same conclusion. Could this indicate that we actually could use some tuning on the manaregen front?

Originally Posted by myth123

PvE aside, the complete lack of mana regen in a PvP environment is one of the greatest reasons (perhaps THE) retribution paladins are highly undesirable in arenas right now.

That and crusader strike is really just a glorified auto attack (actually weaker than auto attack with zero spell dmg on our gear)

And another one? This have to be madness?

Mearis · 11/13/07, 12:14 PM

I would rather not reply to this thread any further until I have the data, but I'd like to gather some empirical data on killing speed of mobs for different specs/classes.

I'll see if I can get some guildmates to help, does anyone have any suggestions for what mobs would be a good benchmark to measure grinding speed? A measure of mobs/10 minutes seems like a good indication, but controlling the parameters would be a nightmare if we pick a crowded spot. There is also the problem that player skill would be an absolute nightmare to normalize, a great player might try to grind multiple mobs at once while someone instead might limit himself to single pulling mobs that are far awa yfrom each other.

My experience so far is that even with a decent spell damage suit, raid healing spec'd and prot tanks are by far the slowest classes at grinding, and all DPS classes are able to grind at very high speeds, with a few classes being absolutely exceptional (protection paladins and affliction warlocks).

I freely conceed that ret paladins might be at the bottom of the ladder as far as grinding speed of DPS classes, but they are probably well ahead of restoration shamans, holy priests, holy paladins, and protection warriors, even considering the upcoming healing -> spell damage conversion. A guildmate who absolutely hates ret spec'd ret once on a bet and commented that the only thing the spec was good for was grinding mobs.

Cromfel · 11/13/07, 12:15 PM

I freely conceed that ret paladins might be at the bottom of the ladder as far as grinding speed of DPS classes, but they are probably well ahead of restoration shamans, holy priests, holy paladins, and protection warriors, even considering the upcoming healing -> spell damage conversion. A guildmate who absolutely hates ret spec'd ret once on a bet and commented that the only thing the spec was good for was grinding mobs.

Are you going to perform the test with Retribution verus healing specced or Retribution versus classic grinding specs?

Good mobs to chain grinding are for example Skettis surgers or SMV elementals if you pick your timing correctly.

LockApologist · 11/13/07, 1:46 PM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

Welcome to patch 2.3, where it is actually more efficient to grind as a healer than a ret pally (and yes, I have tried it on the PTR). 2.3 is live, you have your free 800 spell damage, so time to stop whining about how unfair it is for healers.

Just using numbers we've calculated for a fully raid buffed Paladin (I'm rounding because its very early and I'm tired).

Ret Pallys gain:

Chain Chugging: 100 Mp5
JoW: 100 Mp5
BoW (talented): 50 Mp5
Mana Spring (non-talented): 50 Mp5

Total Gain: 300 Mp5

Our consumption is as follows:

Using max rank SoC and Consecration
CS (6 seconds): 236 mana
SoC VI + Judgement (8 seconds): 243 mana
Consecration VI (8 seconds): 660 mana
-761 mana used per 5 seconds

Total Result: -463 Mp5

Naturally this would lead to "lets downrank to save mana". If you brought everything to the lowest possible rank your consumption and regen would look like this.

Downranking SoC and Consecration to Rank I
CS (6 seconds): 236 mana
SoC I + Judgement (8 seconds): 151 mana
Consecration I (8 seconds): 120 mana
-366 mana used every 5 seconds

Total Result: -68 Mp5

The next logical step is to cut out Consecration.

Cutting out Consecration
CS (6 Seconds): 236 mana
SoC VI + Judgement (8 seconds): 243 mana
-348 mana used every 5 seconds

Total Result: -48 Mp5

If you want to take this to an extreme and cut out as much as possible (no Judgement or Consecration) and downrank SoC you will regen mana, but at a huge cost to DPS.

Absolute Minimum Mana Consumption
CS (6 Seconds): 236 mana
SoC I (30 seconds): 55 mana
-206 mana used every 5 seconds

Total Result: +94 Mp5

Make of it as you will. These of course are very very rough estimates that don't take into account all sorts of extra variables (Spiritual Atunement comes to mind first) but they give you a rough idea of what our regen looks like.

For those BE pally, SoB comes to:

Using max rank SoB and Consecration
CS (6 seconds): 236 mana
SoB I + Judgement (8 seconds): 168 mana
Consecration VI (8 seconds): 660 mana
-714 mana used per 5 seconds

Total Result: -414 Mp5

Downranking Consecration to Rank I
CS (6 seconds): 236 mana
SoB I + Judgement (8 seconds): 168 mana
Consecration I (8 seconds): 120 mana
-376 mana used every 5 seconds

Total Result: -76 Mp5

Note: BE get slightly less benefit here due to no lower rank of SoB

The next logical step is to cut out Consecration.

Cutting out Consecration
CS (6 Seconds): 236 mana
SoB I + Judgement (8 seconds): 168 mana
-301 mana used every 5 seconds

Total Result: -1 Mp5

If you want to take this to an extreme and cut out as much as possible (no Judgement or Consecration) you will regen mana, but at a significant cost to DPS.

Absolute Minimum Mana Consumption
CS (6 Seconds): 236 mana
SoB I (30 seconds): 210 mana
-231 mana used every 5 seconds

Total Result: +69 Mp5

Personally, I usually run w/o Consecration, as I didn't get BoW in raids (Salv is too important). With build in -threat, I may get BoW and add it back in.