Deathwing

We had a debate about this in guild a few weeks ago. Aren't armor debuffs a percentage dps increase regardless of the target's armor(unless it's zero)? This is basically the reverse of stacking armor. Yes, the AC to DR conversion has diminishing returns, but the AC to delta DR is linear...so wouldn't subtracting armor work the same way?

 

Saltycracker

Re: Ashtongue Talisman of Zeal...

Does anyone know if this thing has an internal cooldown?

 

Wrl

AC to Time to Live is Linear, but any change in AC has more of a change in DR at lower armor.

Here is a helpful graph


And the equation for that graph (basically):



Where
y=the % increase to physical damage
x=the target's armor
z=the armor penetration

Gori | Aja | Secured | Sao | Wrl | Lloem

 

Wrl

99.999% sure it doesn't. Giving it a 8 second internal cooldown would prevent it from that refreshing bug however (if it is true).

Gori | Aja | Secured | Sao | Wrl | Lloem

 

Aramul

None of the Ashtongue trinkets have internal cooldowns.

 

Lackdanon

Heyas, I´m finding that Omen isn´t calculating my threat properly and I find my self way over the MT when I just Auto attack and CS with out even judging. Is this still the case or whats the latest version with the real Threat numbers for ret. I just updated to Omen-r55025. Is this the latest one?

Thanks,

Lackdanon

 

• Zurm

That should be the latest version... I'm using a version from like a week ago and it works perfectly.

 

Mind

Hi guys, about one totally different question. What do you think its better for blood elf paladin (SoB).

[Cataclysm's Edge] or [Torch of the Damned]

I have it both, but dunno why I feel the sword its better for pve.

I actually have some WWS here, as you can check dps:

WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Retribution Black Temple DPS - WWS

My actual unbuffed stats with the sword sit around 2000ap, 29-30% crit, 1147 armor penetration and 31 haste (1.97%). Because my gear is ArP based I feel the sword its better for dps.

I would like to know if anyone already stacked alot of haste gear and checked a really noticeable dps increase.

But, in general, what would you say its best for SoB, sword or mace?

 

flyingtoastr

Front page weapon examples show CE as about 2 DPS higher than TotD with SoB. These are just rough comparisons but you get the gist (the differences between the two weapons are small). As with nearly everything regarding those two weapons, its really what you get first and personal choice from there. Can't go wrong with either one. Now if you (for some odd reason) start stacking huge amounts of armor penetration the sword will begin to give more benefit, as the more Armor Pen you have the more effective each point of it becomes.

Haste has been proven the best stat for anyone using SoB.

Actually though, your post reminded me of something I've been meaning to do for a while.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

Tonyk

Haste has been proven to be the best for Seal of Blood? I find that odd.

A typical recount shows my damage broken up like this:

Melee (46%)
Crusader Strike (24%)
Seal of Blood (20%)
Judgement of Blood (10%)

Given that CS and my autoattack are the largest portions of my dps, wouldn't stacking ArP be more beneficial than stacking Haste which effects a smaller portion of my dps?
Or am I missing something here that makes Haste amazing?

 

Meuble

edit: More Haste => More white hits => more SoB => Way more dps _o/

 

flyingtoastr

So to give a little rough example as to why haste is so good.

Lets say you're using a regular old 3.8 speed weapon with Seal of Blood. You hit with every attack for exactly 1000 white and then 350 yellow.

Example 1: No Haste

Swing Timer: 3.8 seconds
White Attack: 1000
Seal of Blood: 350
DPS: 355.26

Now lets say you go on a DKP binge and buy 150 passive haste rating on new gear (~10% increased attack speed). Your weapon speed now drops dramatically while the damage output remains the same.

Example 2: 10% haste

Swing Timer: 3.42 seconds
White Attack: 1000
Seal of Blood: 350
DPS: 394.74

As you can see, that 10% haste increased your DPS fairly dramatically. It is quite possible to get a very slow weapon (such as TotD) down to a very quick attack speed if you gear correctly. You will be keeping the very high topend damage of a slow weapon, yet hitting very quickly. Thanks to Seal of Blood's amazing mechanics, its damage scales very well with haste rating.

And just to give a very extreme example, lets say you popped a Haste Potion with all your passive haste gear on. You now have a total of 550 haste rating, which works out to about a 35% attack speed increase.

Example 3: Haste Potion + Haste Gear

Swing Timer: 2.47 seconds
White Attack: 1000
Seal of Blood: 350
DPS: 546.56

Yes, haste is very nice.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

Kazekan

You gain 10% haste, but don't lose ANYTHING? In what scenario (except jumping from a T4 gear level to T6 of course), will you not sacrifice any other stats for haste? Since I'm not a ret pally for raids, I don't know what stats you end up actually giving up, but for Holy, you end up losing MP5/crit for the most part. I won't argue that haste isn't great for SoB, however I highly doubt that your white dmg & SoB dmg would be the same for both gear setups (unless of course you're sacrificing something like crit & INT/STA/SD or something). Just seems a bit misleading.

 

Handled

The sacrifice you make for Haste is Critical Strike but you also pickup Hit in fact when I'm haste stacked I find my hitting rating is pretty high but I still have to throw on Mail boots with +Hit to cap @ 142. With Vengeance as it currently is I see no reason to not stack Haste and Arm Pen that is what I have been doing and have pulled some higher numbers the past few weeks. The only thing I find I still lack is mana for sustained DPS I have to choose between Haste pots or Mana pots and it's a choice I wish didn't matter.

 

SomeoneRandom

Well, yes you sometimes lose some other stats for haste, but in general for SOB if you can wear the items while maintaining hit cap...

For example : Red belt of battle is 4 dps less than Belt of Seething Fury(haste) as long as you can maintain hit cap.
Band of Devastation is also the 2nd best ring in game after Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring.
Swiftsteel Bracers end up being slightly better than Furious Shackles in the long run as well.

Its not all that hard to actually grab quite a little bit of haste, Personally, I am just gonna grab haste gear whenever nobody wants it just to test / mess around with it, Swinging a torch at 2 speed sounds like it might be fun

I think the biggest problem people have with haste is it is slightly harder to notice unless you have a whole lot of it... especially spell haste... If your holy light is casting .2 seconds faster it is sort of hard to tell, but when you have 200 more +heal, it is very easy to notice.

 

flyingtoastr

If you look at random epics from BT that have haste versus those that do not the stat you are going to sacrifice is Critical Strike Rating. Most of the haste gear is still well endowed with hit rating, and Strength is available in droves. In reality, as long as you keep your crit high enough to keep Vengeance up (very easy to do with the extended duration) and stay hit capped you will notice a large increase in DPS from haste items without a huge loss of other stats. The problem does come about that you will be sacrificing real Paladin gear in order to wear haste rating warrior epics, which will be a dent in your mana pool. But, in all honesty, the 2-piece Lightbringer bonus is all you really need at that level for most fights (and of course the Season 3 gloves). It is quite attainable to stack a huge amount of haste rating and maintain or even increase your white damage.

Spell Haste is an entirely different matter, as the BT/Hyjal plate healing haste sets are terribly itemized (loss of all regen for haste, no thanks). You really can not compare the two.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

Handled

I think this is a very fair comparison for what any Horde Paladin in BT and Hyjal gear can expect when properly geared and put into a group with proper melee makeup. As you can see by the results we only got 1 Bloodlust, I rotate 2 AW's into my rotation because I know how fast after combat starts I can use the first one. I was using a set of Partial Arm Pen and Haste gear the same setup from this Build - Requital - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger

I found it to be an effective build but I still can't really decide if it's the best I can do.

Wow Web Stats

 

Tonyk

Seems like nobody saw the first part of my question...

Haste is good, but it only affects about 70% of my damage whereas ArP would effect about 75%.

What makes Haste better than Armor Penetration, especially considering that the more ArP you get the more valuable it becomes?

 

Handled

I'm in the same debate but as Paladins we have a limited amount of ArP we can get without killing our stats off. So I don't go overboard, Haste however is all over the place I agree with you that they should both be as useful but the sacrifice for ArP is greater in other stat reduction then Haste is. Not to mention our current T6 is still broken and the 4PC is garbage.

 

CaptBooyah

I'd say haste also benefits the paladin in ways such as more chances at JoW/JoL procs which in the long run equates to more dps from longevity.

At the moment, we gain no bonus from just hitting harder. It would make sense for Blizzard to give paladins (or just ret paladins) an inbuilt VT for such a task. The sooner we don't have to chain chug mana pots, the more effectiveness we will push out.

 

SomeoneRandom

I could be wrong, being that I haven't been ret since day 1 or anything, but I thought ArP only affects white hits?

And even if it were to affect Crusader Strikes as well as white hits, Haste would end up being more damage anyway, It may affect slightly less damage, but it adds JoW / JoL procs, creates more windfury hits, possibly adds another white hit in a AW / Haste pot as well...

Again, just my opinions, I don't actually have any numbers to put behind it because I have not been able to pick up more haste than a band of devastation

Also I think it has been covered multiple times over that the actual increase in damage by stacking armor penetration doesn't warrant it much extra value.

 

galzohar

You guys need to remember it's far from only "how much of my dmg does this stat affect?" it's also "how much would this stat cost?" Obvoiusly a stat that increases 1/2 your dmg by 1% will be better than a stat that costs double and increases 3/4 of your dmg by 1%.
For example with stats we know their value, you need a lot less hit rating than crit rating to get 1%, so hit is way better than crit (until cap) even though 1% hit isn't that much better than 1% crit. So when comparing haste and ArP you need to take their costs into account, or even better to compare actual items you can actually choose between and see which gives more DPS, as at the end DPS is what matters, not which stat is better dps per itemization.

 

Handled

In the current state of WoW, Warriors have access to ArP in abundance compared to Paladin based on T6. We have a few rings, a Neck and if we get ArP past that point we are forced to take ZA gear. I'm pretty sure to get more ArP I would lose crit and hit from ZA loot.

 

urukai

hi guyz, first i want to thank u for this rly wonderful thread.

second i want to ask u if [Vengeful Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets] really better than [Grips of Silent Justice].

i always thought they are better but then i started to calculate-> WoW Web Stats

on archimonde i did 84k damage with cs with s3 gloves on. without the gloves it would be 80k(? 84000/105x5?). this is an overall damage increase of 1%

with the grips i would get 20 more strenght and 175 armor ignore.shouldnt this better?
the most bosses have 7700 armor or 6200
7700:
fully debuffed without CoR -> 4490 which is a 30% migation, now -175 armor ignore and it would be 29% migation which would be 1% damage increase for Melee,SoB and CS?

6200:
fully debuffed without CoR -> 2990-> 22% migation, -175 =20,5% migation which would be 1,5% damage increase?

hope u can help me to find an error in my math or confirm it

the formula i used to calc the migation is armor/(armor+10557.5)

 

Vamperica

hi guys i recently got Mark of the Champion what do you guys think of that seems to me its better than berserker trinket because you dont have to wait for a cd to use it and your getting a constint 150 ap in those 2m berserker is down.

Also snaged illidans helm ;p thats one for the ret.

i looked on forum but how do i post links to items were i just mouse over and it pops up the item info and stuff.