Retribution DPS Theorycraft - Page 54

Cavalier · 11/13/07, 6:50 PM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

Just using numbers we've calculated for a fully raid buffed Paladin (I'm rounding because its very early and I'm tired).

Ret Pallys gain:

Chain Chugging: 100 Mp5
JoW: 100 Mp5
BoW (talented): 50 Mp5
Mana Spring (non-talented): 50 Mp5

Total Gain: 300 Mp5

I should point out that JoW will never hit 100mp5 with any decent 2h, simply due to the procrate vs slow weapon.

In practice it'll be closer to 60-70mp5 depending on luck.

flyingtoastr · 11/13/07, 7:00 PM

Originally Posted by Cavalier

I should point out that JoW will never hit 100mp5 with any decent 2h, simply due to the procrate vs slow weapon.

In practice it'll be closer to 60-70mp5 depending on luck.

You forget that JoW procs off all our attacks, including SoC, CS, and Consecration. Trust me, I did the math.

Cromfel · 11/13/07, 7:03 PM

Originally Posted by Cavalier

I should point out that JoW will never hit 100mp5 with any decent 2h, simply due to the procrate vs slow weapon.

In practice it'll be closer to 60-70mp5 depending on luck.

JoW 50% proc rate
3.8 speed weapon (47.4 mp5)
6sec CS cooldown (30.8 mp5)
7 ppm SoC (21.5 mp5)
Judgement every 8sec (23.1 mps5)

Thats total of 122.8?

Cavalier · 11/13/07, 7:36 PM

I was under the impression it had a 40% proc rate, not sure where I got that number but i'll look it up.

Are you sure that Consecration procs it? if so it should theoretically pay for itself and then some on a JoW mob. Which I know in practice hasn't worked for me.

edit: just tested, yeah the first tick can in fact proc it which is another thing I had forgotten.

flyingtoastr · 11/13/07, 7:46 PM

Originally Posted by Cavalier

I was under the impression it had a 40% proc rate, not sure where I got that number but i'll look it up.

Are you sure that Consecration procs it? if so it should theoretically pay for itself and then some on a JoW mob. Which I know in practice hasn't worked for me.

edit: just tested, yeah the first tick can in fact proc it which is another thing I had forgotten.

Both JoW and JoL are 50% proc rates. They can both only proc off the first tic of a DoT (such as Consecration).

Iod · 11/14/07, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by koetjeka

Hello guys,

2.3 is on the doorstep and one of the paladins in my guild is speccing retri. There is only 1 problem: his class leader doesn't allow him to sign up for raids. Not enough dps he says.

I of course want a retri pala in raid for the sake of judgement of wisdom so I want to convince the CL to get a retri pala each raid. I'm not a great paladin-theorycrafter so could anyone make me a list why we should get a retri pala instead of a dps warrior for instance?

Sadly I don't have the WWS up yet, but in a Windfury group our Ret Pally hit #5 on Gruul last night (in partial greens, no less). If your Ret pally is appropriately geared and Windfury is available, a Ret Pally certainly would be a viable addition.

In addition, Improved Sanctity Aura (2% Group Damage Bonus) and the talented Seal of the Crusader (additional Crit) should at least provide some compelling utility. Crusader might gimp the Paladin's personal dps, but might at least convince a Raid Leader that he'd be worth taking.

Sorry for the lack of hard numbers at the moment, hopefully I can get you an example log this evening.

tarja · 11/14/07, 11:53 AM

Last night in the first night of raiding since the 2.3 patch, I could've sworn that I was proccing JoW far more than normal. My combat log would often have 2 or 3 lines in a row of "You gain 74 mana...". It seemed to me like JoW was proccing off the "immune to vindication" combat result (where vindication procs a TON).

Unfortunately I can't verify it for sure, since it seems like WWS is completely busted or something. I've been trying to load our WWS report for hours now and my position in the queue just keeps getting higher.

Has anyone else noticed this to confirm or deny whether I'm crazy? If this is true, (and if it doesn't get "fixed" by Blizzard), it would be a huge source of mp5. I'll edit this post if I can ever get the WWS report loaded, and figure out whether it's true.

Prepared · 11/14/07, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by tarja

Last night in the first night of raiding since the 2.3 patch, I could've sworn that I was proccing JoW far more than normal. My combat log would often have 2 or 3 lines in a row of "You gain 74 mana...". It seemed to me like JoW was proccing off the "immune to vindication" combat result (where vindication procs a TON).

Unfortunately I can't verify it for sure, since it seems like WWS is completely busted or something. I've been trying to load our WWS report for hours now and my position in the queue just keeps getting higher.

Has anyone else noticed this to confirm or deny whether I'm crazy? If this is true, (and if it doesn't get "fixed" by Blizzard), it would be a huge source of mp5. I'll edit this post if I can ever get the WWS report loaded, and figure out whether it's true.

If that's true, I know where I'm going to put my spare point in, from Imp. Judgement (I accidentally took both points. Habit!)

Cathmor · 11/14/07, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by Prepared

If that's true, I know where I'm going to put my spare point in, from Imp. Judgement (I accidentally took both points. Habit!)

With a 6 second Crusader Strike, is only 1/2 Improved Judgement advantageous for the DPS cycle in lining up cooldowns? I specced to 5/10/46, grabbing Guardian's Favor for some utility in thinking that Vindication does nothing in raids - however, some people are saying that Vindication will proc JoWisdom even if the mob is immune, which means I want at least a point in there. If I move the points from Guardian's Favor and 1 point from Imp. Judgement, that gives me 5/8/48 with everything in ret that I want and Vindication.

Summary - will a 9 second cooldown Judgement be good for a raid DPS cycle?

Iconoclast · 11/14/07, 12:30 PM

So about 12 pages back or so there was some discussion about the value of armor penetration stats on gear...

Was it ever resolved? Did we come up with a determination for it?
How do these values compare for SoC as well ass SoB?

Prepared · 11/14/07, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by Cathmor

Summary - will a 9 second cooldown Judgement be good for a raid DPS cycle?

Yes, I'm pretty sure that was determined earlier in the thread, and it's also the default setting in the spreadsheet to have only 1 point in Imp. Judgement. I had 2/2 last night, and noticed myself mashing my Judgement/SoC whenever it came up, and having to wait a few times on the GCD so I could Crusader Strike.

Agrippina · 11/14/07, 1:04 PM

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

So about 12 pages back or so there was some discussion about the value of armor penetration stats on gear...

Was it ever resolved? Did we come up with a determination for it?
How do these values compare for SoC as well ass SoB?

Hierarchy of ret stats (with kings factored in):

Str->Crit/Agi/Ap-> Armor pen/Haste

It's a solid DPS coefficient, but it isn't quite there. For me, the question is savagery vs. executioner atm. I wonder if anyone has some figures for the worth of those.

flyingtoastr · 11/14/07, 1:42 PM

Originally Posted by Cathmor

With a 6 second Crusader Strike, is only 1/2 Improved Judgement advantageous for the DPS cycle in lining up cooldowns? I specced to 5/10/46, grabbing Guardian's Favor for some utility in thinking that Vindication does nothing in raids - however, some people are saying that Vindication will proc JoWisdom even if the mob is immune, which means I want at least a point in there. If I move the points from Guardian's Favor and 1 point from Imp. Judgement, that gives me 5/8/48 with everything in ret that I want and Vindication.

Summary - will a 9 second cooldown Judgement be good for a raid DPS cycle?

I'm willing to bet a rather large sum of money that if Vindication is proccing JoW it is a bug that will be fixed soon, much like the JoW proccing off Judgement refreshes bug on the PTRs. Not worth sinking any points into in a pure raiding build unless it is an intended change.

If you look in the first post there is a little diagram that shows DPS cycles with 9 second and 8 second Judgement. The 9 second does come out ahead, but the effect is so marginal I wouldn't really worry about picking up 2 points in it.

fingoldin · 11/14/07, 1:50 PM

Originally Posted by Prepared

Yes, I'm pretty sure that was determined earlier in the thread, and it's also the default setting in the spreadsheet to have only 1 point in Imp. Judgement. I had 2/2 last night, and noticed myself mashing my Judgement/SoC whenever it came up, and having to wait a few times on the GCD so I could Crusader Strike.

I actually found that having 2/2 in there isn't so bad. You can put 1 point into BoM or Deflection, to get to the third tier, but I think just doing 2/2 imp judgment is better overall. The reason being that you can hold off on judgements for an additional second to make sure you weave in your CS at the appropriate time in your cycle, but the shortened cooldown makes it notably easier when you have to switch targets and quickly get a JotC on the new target quickly.

The one thing which I find most annoying and, also, most torn on what I should do, is when you are switching targets fairly often. If your judgment cooldown isn't up, you don't want to waste the mana casting SoB / SoC only to switch to SotC to get off a judgment and then recast your dps seal... wasted seal cast that isn't judged, which if you do that often, adds up (unless you're using rank 1 SoC). But then again, you don't want to just sit there swinging with SotC waiting for your judgment cooldown because that is a pretty decent hit to your sustained dps, and, well, 3% crit buff on things when you need to burn it down fast isn't a bad thing. So, the 2/2 imp judgment helps with that a little bit by making the window that I am sitting there waiting to judge SotC that much smaller so I can get back into my normal damage rotations.

I just found that, yeah, in theory, a 9 second cooldown is better and no reason to put 2 points in it... in practice, it is nice to have 2 points for when you do need to judge quickly to get up those debuffs for the raid.

Astinus · 11/14/07, 2:18 PM

Are these the two talent spec's for Retribution now?

With Precision

I couldnt quite figure out where to put the last point saved from Imp. Judgement.

Without Precision

I had 7 points left over. I put 5 in 10% INT and 2 in Pursuit of Justice. I was unsure where to place them.