Mmmm, thats a good deal of mana return there given its new proc rate. Every little bit helps =]

Do we know if Vindication's proc rate goes up with more points? Extra JoW procs make it an interesting avenue to explore, even for Prot Paladins (I usually judge Wisdom to provide raid utility if threat isn't tight).

Well the PTR is refusing to allow me on so I can't test whether different ranks proc more/less often.

However, assuming a flat 30% proc rate (the only data I could find on WoWhead listed this, if its wrong please correct me), by moving 1 point into Vindication a paladin would gain a fair amount of Mp5. From only white attacks with a 3.8 speed weapon you would theoretically get an extra proc of JoW every 6 swings. This works out to be ~16 Mp5. Not too shabby for 1 talent point.

That's a great find. I never even thought about that.

I'll definitely try to work 1 point in Vindication in my future PVE builds

Hi Guys,

Sorry I haven't been around for a long time, and the dps model has become slightly out of date. I havent been raiding for a long while now, and work, committments etc reduced the amount of time I had to keep informed of all the new happening and browze the forums as much as i would have like.

Thanks for all the PM's. They have all been read (if not responded to).

I did however want to get the model uptodate before 2.4 hits PTR (fingers crossed for more changes). I have updated the spreadsheet to V24 (2.3.2). It can be downloaded here:-

Free file hosting by Savefile.com

There aren't a lot of changes since the last version:-

1) It is now 2.3.2 compliant - 110% CS & 80% Sanctified Crusader included
2) Have gone through the badge loot & ZA loot (including leather and mail) and added a lot of items.

There is no protection on the sheets so you can unhide and look at the item database and the dps calculation sheet. If you spot any items that are missing or have incorrect stats, or if you can make sense of all the calculations that are going on and see any mistakes please let me know.

Any additions/changes/suggestion etc are probably best addresses through a PM. I don't have as much time to browze the forums nowadays so may miss something, but can easily keep uptodate in my PM's and can respond to additions/changes etc in forums.

Regarding the one big issue with Open Office and compatibility issues that some have had. I'm sorry but I dont have the time to figure out / correct why there are compatibility issues (if anyone figures it out, please let me know). The file was created with Excel 2003. So that and later versions should be fine.

Anyway, enjoy and i hope to get a new version with your suggestions updated pre 2.4 and then some big changes with new gear etc when 2.4 hits

Have a nice weekend

I have aded 1 point in Vindication to my prot build, and I haven't seen a single double Jow (from swing and Vindication proc), not noticed any additional procs of JoW. Does Vindication definitely still have this behaviour?

The Vindication cannot double proc JoW, it just counts as another spell, so that will increase your chances of getting mana.

Anyway, this was observed on the current PTR.

The Vindication thing was just a rumor, and never had any evidence to support it. Immune is just like miss or dodge, it is not a hit and will not proc abilities (windfury, seal of command, judgement of wisdom). Unless someone comes up with evidence in support, there's no reason to believe there's some crazy 'proc limit' on JoW that applies only to Vindication.

I only have 2 old WWS-Reports to look at from ZA, one with 2/3 Vindication and one without, I specced out of it to reach BoK and didn't think the debuff was much useful.

Melee+SoC+CS+JoC hits, not counting Consecration:
For example on Narolakk,
with Vindication: 108 hits, 152 JoW procs
without Vindication: 126 hits, 93 JoW procs

Akil'zon:
with Vindication: 111 hits, 148 JoW procs
without Vindication: 115 hits, 84 JoW procs

Halaazi (can't be sure about JoW uptime here):
with: 122 hits, 138 procs
without: 153 hits, 68 procs

Looks like there is a connection, I guess more testing would be useful.

Great! I had almost stopped following this thread, since the spreadsheet updates were the high point for me and MaxDPS.com just doesn't cut it (too simplistic, doesn't consider consecration/exorcism).

Welcome back, PM incoming.

Avitus, glad to hear you like the spreadsheet I checked out the maxdps site which i'd never heard of (guess it sprung up during my absense. I'm quite impressed. It doesnt have the complexities of a solo class model, but since it is dealing with every classes dps it can't be expected to and is a useful tool. It had great potential if the author has the time to continue expanding upon it.

Anyway, there is a new version (25) of the spreadsheet that can be downloaded here:-

[It appears the location i save files to is down at the moment. Will update this space as soon as i can upload]

Thanks to Kris and Kerri for feedback. Based on this, the following changes have been made:-

1) Ashtongue Talisman of Zeal added
2) Surefooted enchant for boots added
3) Bugs that occured surrounding pvp head/shoulder/bracer gear has been fixed
4) The Item analysis page has had a workover:-
a) There is now a dropdown box next to the "Item Analyse" button. It is default set to "All" in which case the analysis will look for upgrades on all your items, however the drop down can now be used to select an individual item of gear and the analysis will run only on that item
b) The feel of the page is more compact not (you'll see what i mean when you look and use it.

My next big to do is to get the spreadsheet functioning at the same level for SoB as it is for SoC. This may take a while, but hey, you've all been waiting 7 months for Sunwell so i know you're patient

Have a good weekend

To make the SoB section of the spreadsheet as accurate as possible. Need confirmation on the following questions:-

1) Does SoB proc off Crusader Strike?
2) Does SoB proc off a windfury hit?
3) Can SoB be Fully Resisted?
4) Can SoB be Partially Resisted?
5) Can SoB be missed/dodge/parried/blocked?
6) Does SoB use Melee Crit?
7) Can JoB be Fully Resisted?
8) Can JoB be Partially Resisted?
9) Can JoB be missed/dodge/parried/blocked?
10) Does Job Use Melee Crit?

I also need to know:-

11) What are the spell damage coefficnets for the different ranks of consecration. I know Rank 1 is 46% and Rank 6 is 95%. Dont know the rest.

Cheers

Just a quick update. In the version of the spreadsheet i'm working on atm, all the functionality such as Item Analysis, Mana Efficiency, Skill Dps Breakdown now works for SoB.

As soon as i have the underlying calculations (as per previous mail sorted), should be ready for publishing (a lot quicker than i anticipated)

1) No
2) Yes
3) ?
4) ?
5) Yes
6) Yes
7) No
8) No

I'm fairly sure this is correct someone verify

Durandel, i realised in my question list i used the same number multiple times. Have re-numbered them. If you get a sec to re-number your answers accordingly would be appreciated

Cheers

Slightly off topic, but I can really recommend Filefront for this purpose.

A benefit would be you could just link to your profile directory there on the front post of this thread and we could see new (and old) files without having to worry about posting single file links, just a "new spreadsheet up!" message

Fiola, the most logical suggestion i could come up with whereby we get an increase in procs but not see double procs if it was programmed that a vindication proc could proc JoW so long as the melee hit that procced vindication did not also proc wow. To cite an example where this mechanic is present. I was under the impression that a windfury proc could proc SoC so long as the melee hit which proced windfury did not proc SoC.

However looking at Sorry's data. For the times when vindication was on, JoW procs > number of hits. I cant see how this can be the case without a double proc occuring.

Good to see you still around

I updated the OP.

Alright, I've been doing some tests to get the different co-efficients for Consecration and Exorcism for the spreadsheet (already PMed), when I stumbled on something very disturbing regarding JotC.

Consecration:

(To be read as follows: Rank x: Base damage per tick, Damage when using 222 spelldamage gear - co-efficient)

Rank 6: 64, 90 - 94%
Rank 5: 48, 74 - 94%
Rank 4: 35, 61 - 94%
Rank 3: 24, 45 - 76%
Rank 2: 15, 32 - 61%
Rank 1: 8, 21 - 47%

What was very intersting is that in contrast to normal spelldamage gained from gear, the spelldamage from JotC doesn't seem to be affected by the co-efficient decline when downranking.

Meaning that ALL ranks of Consecration gain 95% from the 219 spelldamage added by JotC.


After further testing, I also discovered that damage added from JotC is NOT affected by any multipliers like everything else (sanctity, imp sanctity, crusade, vengeance, avenging wrath).

This means that JotC will always add a static +26 DPS to consecration regardless of buffs or multipliers.


Consecration rank 6 on a humanoid (+3% from crusade), with 3 stacks of vengeance (+15%) and imp Sanctity aura (+12.2%) and 302 spelldamage (222 from gear + 80 from trinket stacks):

Test result 132 tick! Theorycraft: (64 + (302 * 0.95)/8) * 1.1 * 1.02 * 1.03 * 1.15 = 132.72 DPS

Add JotC ("26 DPS"):

Test result 159 tick! Theorycraft: 26 + (64 + (302 * 0.95)/8) * 1.1 * 1.02 * 1.03 * 1.15 = 158.72 DPS
Instead of 167.27 DPS if JotC spelldamage was affected by multipliers!

Add Avenging Wrath (+30%):

Test result 199 tick! Theorycraft: 26 + (64 + (302 * 0.95)/8) * 1.1 * 1.02 * 1.03 * 1.15 * 1.3 = 198.53 DPS
Instead of 217.45 DPS if JotC spelldamage was affected by multipliers!


As you can see, damage gained from JotC does not benefit from any multipliers

Summary:

-Spelldamage added by JotC does not receive a penalty coefficient when downranking
-Spelldamage added by JotC does not benefit from any multipliers
-JotC will always add "26" more per tick to any rank of consecration regardless of buffs or multipliers


Exorcism:

I did not have time to test this fully and somehow I think it's silly to downrank this spell, given that max rank (7) exorcism costs 340 mana every 15 seconds, which is very little.

I suggest you just model the max rank, which receives a 43% co-efficient.

Also regarding JotC the same behavoir can be experienced as with Consecration, it's rank independant and multiplier independant, meaning JotC always adds 94.17 to any rank of exorcism regardless of multipliers/buffs.


I'm afraid through this bit of testing I've discovered a glaring flaw in one of our core abilities (JotC), I wouldn't be surprised if it gives a static buff that doesn't benefit from any multipliers on all abilities (SoC, Holy Wrath, Crusader Strike atm).

This is a very big issue if you consider the loss of DPS to SoC and JoC (and currently Crusader Strike) from having the 219 holy spelldamage you gain from JotC NOT benefit from active multipliers.

As it stands, multipliers are the strong point of the retri dps and scalability, having JotC not benefit from it means we lose quiet a lot.

I used to consider JotC = +219 free spelldamage, but as I've learned now it is "219 spelldamage that does not benefit from any multipliers".

Multipliers:

Vengeance: +15%
Sanctity Aura: +10%
Crusade: +3%
Improved Sanctity Aura: +2%

[top]> Stacked

32.9% => JotC 219 spelldamage would be equivalent of 291 spelldamage

Further for SoC:

2h spec: +6%

[top]> Stacked

40.9% => JotC 219 spelldamage would be equivalent of 308.5 spelldamage

and Avenging Wrath (when used): +30%

[top]> Stacked

72.7% (83.1% for SoC) => JotC 219 spelldamage would be equivalent of 378.4 (401.1 for SoC) spelldamage


This means, through this mechanics bug, for all our abilities that benefit from JotC (JoC, Exorcism, Consecration, Holy Wrath), we're losing: 72 spelldamage!

For all SoC procs we're losing: 89.5 spelldamage!

Both these numbers should not be underestimated as they're a pretty huge chunk of DPS we're losing on a constant basis (all these multipliers should have 100% uptime 10 seconds into the fight).

Just compare, a [Flask of Supreme Power] or a trinket, would give you slightly less than the 72 (and 89.5) spelldamage we're losing here respectively by not having JotC benefit from our multipliers.

Also while AW is up we're losing: 159.4 spelldamage and 182 spelldamage to SoC!


This is pretty huge, I suggest the somewhat louder blizzard forum activists of this community take this to the blizz forums and demand a fix

I just ran Mother through Illidan to make sure of my remembered impressions, so here are the answers as best I know them.

No

Yes

No

No

Yes, all of the above.

Yes

No

No

No, none of the above.

Yes

Can't help you on this one.

I got these results and confirmation through Recount. I realize they are not scientific.

1032 SoB attacks.

355 JoB attacks.

Hope this helps.

Can anyone explain this :

That's the first time I've seen SoB partially resisted. I got multiple partial resists on that kill.

Oh, and

on that same kill.