Although I have yet to test this for multiple hours, the small test I did do showed [Libram of Avengement] to fall behind the new libram by somewhere around 20 dps, with a judge every 8 seconds.

There is also a bug with the Libram of Avengement that makes it refresh itself whenever you would refresh Vengeance, which is quite an odd bug, that is quite in favor of this libram, but it still falls behind =\

Also, as I said I am still somewhat new to this whole Retribution thing, what exact cycle do most people use in actual raids, I understand that during a raid I would have a few buffs to improve my efficiency, but at a full burn with only Judgements / Crusader Strikes I was still going completely dry in 97(SOB) - 140 seconds(R1 SOC), and that doesnt include anything like Concecrates / Exorcisms.

Do most people not judge until their seal is about to fall off? Or is it usually accepted that it is worth it to keep up a libram buff?

That doesn't mean +dmg is awful at all. All it means is that damage and strength needs to be weighted. If I have a choice between 31 dmg and 10 strength, I take the dmg.

This comes into better contrast when you consider a piece of "ret" gear versus a piece of "warrior" gear. If the difference is 15 STR, but I get 20 INT and 30 spell damage instead, the only real difference is 20 INT for 5 STR, which is a switch I may be willing to take depending on my mana pool.

Blindly choosing to take melee only stats on gear is silly. The real goal is to maximize efficiency and DPS. Knowing how stats like spell damage play into that is important in understanding how this works.

The "StatMod" for AC penetration looks to be about 0.1 based on s3 gladiator gear (the same as the value for ac) if that's any use.

Mana potions: Comparing soloing to raid environment really doesn't work, since I doubt you use mana potions while grinding

Also if I'm grinding then I tend not to judge too excessively, but obviously use CS everytime it's up to conserve mana.

In a raid, you "must" judge and CS everytime they're up in order to have any hopes of offering competitive DPS.

However with raid damage (or SoB if you have it) and incoming heals coupled with Spiritual Attunement you get some more mana to work with. JoW from another paladin, BoW if you're lucky enough and have 4 or more paladins in raid, Mana Spring totem from the shammy in your group pretty much turn the tables on your lack of mana.

You should be spamming mana potions also and if you need it, get an Alchemist's Stone (check my post a few pages back).

I guess what you noticed while soloing is the horribly badly designed mana efficiency of ret paladins. We don't use much mana, but we also have almost no mana regen in our gear what so ever when we're on our own. Which is why in a raid with the above mentioned buffs it's like night and day (comparing soloing to raiding).


Oh and PVP with a private healer is awesome (=infinite mana)

About Str (and pure "warrior gear") vs Spelldamage ("ret gear"):

I'm sure it's beyond a doubt that if you compare point to point, STR is far superior, however:


This is exactly it, technically you could go for full out warrior gear, but you'll end up with a horribly small mana pool, which will be a big problem in most fights.



Bellator's spreadsheet:

I really appreciate the work in Bellator's spreadsheet, but I have to question the validity of some of the suggested "best DPS" items vs equivalent item value "ret gear" like Tier 6.

If you follow the above, I think the spreadsheet currently seems to miss any weight for int and/or mana regen that I can see.

Loading up v15 of the spreadsheet, SoC dps is 1412 DPS and 159 int for the "Tier 6" set and 1473 DPS and 85 int for the "Best of Best" profile.

Is a calculated ~60 DPS worth losing 74 int = 1221 mana (with BoK)? (And even more mana if you opt out for different bracers/belt than in the "Tier 6" profile for example).

In addition, items like the T6 pants have 9mp5 and the 2 set bonus (chance to gain 50 mana on melee hit) further add more mana efficiency, which is a hidden bonus which I'm not sure is considered in the spreadsheet.

I guess what I'm saying is: As an experiment of theoretical numbers, yes, this set offers more dps than that set. But in a realistic environment, which set would perform better?

The spreadsheet is definitely going the right way, but I think some weight should be added to int/mana regen, since I don't think it's possible to go all out warrior gear and not be completely mana starved.


Also, is there any way to check for an increase in the worth of spelldamage, depending on how much armor the boss/mob has?

Do other spreadsheets do this kind of weighing, for casters? I know the Moonkin DPS sheet has a table which says how much damage is expected for different cast cycles, and how long mana should last assuming certain facts about regen and buffs. Perhaps this would be easy to emulate for Paladin purposes, assuming no heals and thus no Spiritual Attunement?

More JoW updates.

This may not all be accurate (but its the best I could find). These numbers assume a perfect 50% proc rate for JoW to make the math easier. These numbers assume a 100% hit rate to again make the math easier. These calculations only include spells and abilities that can proc JoW, even though there may be more in the rotation. There is a reason this is the ideal situation test folks. Feel free to fix/add to them as you can.

Hunter
Beast Mastery
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Steady Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.1s
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 176.19 Mp5

Marksmanship
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Special Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.5s
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 148 Mp5

Survival
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Special Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.5s
Ideal M5 from JoW: 148 Mp5

Mage
Fire
Typical Rotation: (After Fire Vunerability x5 is applied) Fireball x8, Scorch, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 65.29 Mp5

Frost
Typical Rotation: Frostbolt, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 74

Arcane
Typical Rotation: Arcane Blast x2, Arcane Missiles x2, Scorch, repeat
Ideal Mp5: 138.75 Mp5

Note for mages assumed 5/5 Improved Fireball/Frostbolt depending on spec

Shaman
Elemental
Typical Rotation: Lightning Bolt, repeat
Ideal Mp5: 92.5 Mp5

Priest
Shadow
Typical Rotation: Vampiric Touch, Shadow Word: Pain, Mind Blast, Shadow Word: Death, Mind Flay x2, Mind Blast, reapply DoTs as needed
Ideal Mp5: 92.5 Mp5

Both the Shadow Priest and Arcane Mage spell rotations are very complicated and vary greatly depending on fight and spec, so take those numbers with the largest grain of salt possible.

Again, I'll keep adding more as I can. If you see any glaring problems please speak up.

Guys remember that the max mana # is quite insiginificant compared to the mana regened in combat by all other factors, which makes int really not all that exciting as you're making it to be. I do agree at least an estimated conversion rate of spell damage->str should be made until we have a good spreadsheet where you can put your own gear and see exactly how much it converts to for you.

Once you enter BT and MH there's quite a lot of raid damage, so you regain a ton of mana from healing. I've had absolutely no problem maintaining a full CS+JoC cycle and I even squeeze an Exorcism from time to time. Once mana is not a problem spells like Exorcism and Consecration tip the scales a bit more in favor of spell damage, not enough to surpass strength of course but it still has some use.

The shadowpriest numbers look quite high. Did you include each tick of mindflay as procing JoW?

Even assuming the ideal case scenario of one tick/gcd, that would be around 50% chance of restoring 75 mana per 1.5 seconds, or 75 mana / 3, or 75 / 3 *5 mana per 5, roughly 125 mana/5. That's the complete utter highest number obtainable unless there is a flaw in my math.

Obviously, that's completely unrealistic, since no caster always casts one instant spell every GCD, although shadow priests get the closest if they don't use mindflay much. Arcane mages are the only class that gets above that, but they are gone in the next patch.

I guess my point was that despite a DPS spreadsheet being an excellent tool for theoretical purposes, it shouldn't be more than a guide rather than a rule since there's no weight on int/mana regen


A simple example would be a pure burn down fight with 0 incoming damage like Shade of Akama where you don't have enough time to take more than 1 single mana potion.

With full warrior gear. I guarantee you'll be reduced to autoattacking pretty fast.

Obviously the reverse is true at fights like Teron or Reliquary where there's lots of incoming damage.

Anyway, no one is saying you should stack int rather than damage stats, however I still believe some int is a must rather than all out warrior gear, and will gain better results on average.

The leeway to use consecration more often is definitely a very welcome plus.

Yes, but it is AP and not Str, so it won't synergize as well with talents.

Why are people hell bent at escaping from actual ret gear. You know while spelldamage isn't the top dog stat, it's still very useful to have.

Anyway, I think this is digressing away from my original point which is evaluating the worth of "warrior gear" vs ret gear in practice rather than theory (spreadsheet).


What she said.

Because I do more damage with my T4 shoulders than I do with T5, just cause T5 has so many wasted points on Spell Damage.

T5 has "8" more spelldamage than T4 eh, I'm not sure what you're getting at.

It also has 5 more str and ~0.2% more crit. The only thing T4 has that T5 doesn't is the hit rating, so unless you need that hit rating to get over the hit cap and are missing while wearing T5, T4 is inferior in every way.

I think it's better to stop pursuing this argument at this point in order not to derail the thread

There has been a little talk lately about Int/Mp5 and it's effect on dps. I thought i would give you my TC on Int/Mp5 and why i have chosed to ignore is as a weighting in my spreadsheet.

1)In any given fight a paldin uses X amount of mana per second through his abilities (SoC/JoC/CS). He also gains Y mana per second through BoW/JoW/Mana Potting. If for any given dps rotation....

Mana Pool - (Fight Duration in seconds * (Y-X) > 0

...then the paladin will not run out of mana during the fight

2) The absolute minimum rotation a paladin must do is to keep SoC uptime at 100% and use CS on cooldown. Using version 16 (hopefully released later tofay) of my calculation you can see that with Bow/JoW/Mana pots this is easily obtainable in 0mp5 gear. Because of this, the dps gain mp5 will give you is from allowing you to judge at a more regular interval or allowing you to use other abilities such as exorcism.

3) So lets look at two example of Mp5 increasing dps:-

A) I plugged in a tier 5 set with 0 mp5. I found out that it enabled me to keep CS/SoC up and judge SoC every 15.85 seconds keeping mana lost/gained equal. To reduce this to a 9 sec judgement took 50.9mp5 and produced a 45.5dps increase. If this Mp5 was itemised as strength then you would get 127.25 Strength would have increased dps by 76.7.

B) Now let's look at Exorcism. 1Mp5 allows you to cast 1 exorcism every 1700 seconds for an average hit of 985 (with 200 spell damage + jotc). This works out at 0.58 dps per 1mp5. Since 1 Mp5 would give you 2.5 strength which equates to roughtly 1.5dps increase. Again mp5 is far less effective than strength.

4) As a quick note, i have focused on Mp5. Since 1Mp5 = 2.5int, after Bok etc have been taken into account 1Mp5 produces more mana than Int after 3min20sec. Since most fights are longer than this, i have used Mp5 in the calculations above as it is the stonger of the two stats.

Conclusion:-

What this all means is that whilst Int /Mp5 do have an effect on dps, the gains by putting the stats elsewhere (str/crit) is far greater. However in terms of gear selection, some items such as lightbringer may work out to produce a higher dps output than warrior equivalent gear due to the fact that it allows you to alter your playstyle to include more JoC etc into your rotation. This however is impossible to model as the model is based upon fixed gear/buff/playstyle. It would be a nightmare to model playstyle based on mana/int.

However in the next version of the model that should come out later today there will be an ability to alter your playstlyle slightly, there will be a mana analysis and there along with the dps output there will be a time till OOM, so you can adjust gear/playstle until you get the right combination of dps and time till OOM.

Quick question on your testing: Which one of you had more threat, or was it about even? Reason I ask is parries, though probably very uncommon for a mob that low, would skew the numbers, even slightly. Not to mention that is a fairly short sample time, in my opinion. Can you also post the builds used, for my curiousity? I can't see where the five points would come from, to put into Imp. SoR to make this viable.

Djardin can you tell me what kind of equip you use?

- I edited my original post to detail my gear and my friend gear (I was swinging bloodmoon and not mooncleaver).
- I tanked all the tries we did by using rigteous fury (Omen said I was doing around 1300 TPS /flex .

Hi guys,

I have upgraded my Dps model. It can be found here:-

Free file hosting by Savefile.com

This has lots of new functionality, so I will try to explain the model as much as possible here. Worth reading even if you have come to grips with previos version

1) The first section "Dps and Skill Overview" gives an overview of the different abilities used, their base mana cost, mana per second usage (mps) and dps contribution. Along with it is the overall dps and a new "Time till Out of Mana" figure

2) Below this is the "Information" section which gives stat data based on gear buffs etc. It now includes some information on mana.

3) The "Gear" section below this allows you to select your gear from the item in the database. By clicking the "Show Detail" button shows the gem/enchant slots and lets you select them. "Strength gems" button fills all your sockets with strength gems and "Correct Gems" fills all the sockets with the best gems to ensure the gem socket bonus is obtained. As usual you can save/load/delete gear profiles (some are already included)

4) "Talents/Buffs/Pots" section below this allows as always to turn on off various talents/buffs/pots

5) "Playstyle / Mana Info" is a NEW section which allows you to adjust various aspects of your playstyle / talents which effect the mana usage. This includes:-

A) Benedition - allows you to set how many talent points you have here
B) Sanctified Judgement - allows you to set how many talent points you have here (only 0,3 are options atm)
C) Rank of SoC Used - self explanatory
D) How Judgement is used - Gives 3 options. "On Cooldown" means you will judge whenever possible do that it does not interfer with SoC uptime or CS. "Every 30 seconds" means you judge every 30seconds and refresh seal. "Never" means you simply refresh seal every 30 seconds.
D) Blessing of Wisdom / JoW / Mana Pots on CoolDown / Shadow priest allow you to set how your group/buffs/pot usage is.

Below this it shows you your Mp5 from gear, total mps in, total mps out and an overal mps gain/loss

6) Just below this is a "Judgement CD Override". When this is turned on it allows you to set a specific time in seconds between each judgement.

What sections 5 & 6 allow you to do is check out the difference between dps gear with and without mp5/int. If you gear up with warrior and then switch to a play style which allows you to not go OOM, you can then put on int/mp5 gear and adjust the playstyle (more JoC's etc) to allow for the increased mana, and thus compare the different overall dps output of the two styles.

7) Finally there the graph section. The graph will only show either SoC or SoB as specified by the option. There is also an option to state how many armour penetration rating you get for 1 itemisation point (since this value is currently unknown). Pressing the button will show your overall dps increase as you spend itemization points in the various stats.

On the right hand side is the SEP (Strength Equivalence Points) of the various stats. It used 1 Strength as the base, and shows how much of each other stat is needed to obtain the same dps increase.

8) Finally, on the item calc sheet is a button which will work out various upgrades based on the buffs/items/playstyle selected.

....Thank you for your time


Some quick side notes:-

1) I know some people are having problems with the sheet in OOM etc. Unfortunately i do not have the time to learn how these various programs deal with VBA code. Whilst i will fix any bugs that occur, I don't have the time to ensure the spreadsheet is compatible with every program that can open it

2) SoB is not fully implemented in some of these calculations (ie the OOM figure) If i get the time, i will try to make it as functional for SoB as it is for SoC

3) If i get time i will include SoR. However i very much doubt i will have time and it is very low on my priority list as i can guarentee a str/ap SoC build in a raid environment will beat SoR ten times out of ten. My apologies.

Bellator, no idea how you changed things, but now the 1004 error when clicking the "Graph Calc" button is gone. If only you could make the same change for the other buttons it'd make the chart working for all of us unfortunate enough to be stuck with Excel 2003

I have no trouble using any of the buttons or charts in Excel 2003, FWIW.