Retribution DPS Theorycraft - Page 61

Fiola · 11/21/07, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by Dio

...

and if SoC. How much spellpower is worth going for, before you start gimping your self?

If you regularly use your abilities (CS, JoC), 1 +dmg is worth 1~ AP (More for multiple target AoE, less if you're not using abilities every cooldown)

In that case, the best +dmg to get is on armor that already comes with Strength. (Tier armor, PvP non-set epics, that one belt from BT) When you compare them with equivalent warrior items, you find the "equivalent AP" from Str & +dmg on the paladin item is higher than the AP from the warrior item. (You do trade off stats like crit/hit - that might be made up for with the int and mana efficiency/mana regen set bonuses)

Every other armor type trades off too much. Accessories tend to be Melee OR Caster; getting +dmg would mean getting excessive caster stats like spell crit or spell hit without any melee stats like Str or Crit/Hit. Weapons follow the same pattern.

(All that said, I'd still recommend getting some +dmg gear to use for AoE, normal dungeon tanking and the like)

Fiola · 11/21/07, 2:16 PM

WoW Forums -> Crusader Strike

Originally Posted by Eyonix

In an upcoming mini-patch, we're making a change to crusader strike so that it will cause 110% of weapon damage and no longer gain any bonus from spell damage.

Discuss. I'll follow-up in this thread as needed.

Cromfel · 11/21/07, 2:29 PM

Originally Posted by Cromfel

What they could do with Sanctified Judgement, is to make the manareturn equal the time used for Seal. You are judging once every 10 seconds by default, 8seconds with talents. Thats 33% of Seal duration. Sanctified Judgement should return mana accordingly, giving that remaining 66% of mana back. Make it 75% and we have a judgement promotional system. That way it doesnt feel like ripoff to judge seal with high manacost at 30% of its full duration.

" * Sanctified Judgments (Retribution) now returns 80% of the Seal's mana cost, increased from 50%. "

Now thats what I call reaction

http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread....26842681&sid=1

Looks very nice.

Meuble · 11/21/07, 3:57 PM

I wonder what they're trying to do with the retpally. By throwing away our dependancy (hopefully a SoC change will be done? Allys must seriously miss SoB... well, much more, now that SD isn't efficient on CS) to SD they're also taking away our hability to throw a heal every now and then. I don't think it's a bad thing, since our heals are close to nothing anyway, but the hybrid side... well, it doesn't look like blizz want to fix us to be hybrid. Anyway, I'm BE, so hurray for that change.

About exec: Did two runs of half an hour, couldn't host them on wws. And I don't know why, but the first one is 28mn long, the over one 30mn. And I'm pretty sure I stopped combatlogging at the same point. Anyway, they both score 28 executionners proc. Since I got a couple of epics with armor penetration, I think I'll go for it on my next weapon - if it's ever to loot - since regarding armor penetration, the more you get the betterit is. I tend to think it won't be that efficient for us but I'll be able to gather some other runs on blasted on my live server that way.

SomeoneRandom · 11/21/07, 4:50 PM

Based on the spreadsheet.. it has executioner slightly ahead of both savagery and mongoose... which is interesting.... considering I am currently using Soul Cleaver and Choker of Serrated Blades, I am thinking about trying it out.... but with only a 1ppm that you have seen I am having my doubts.

That test you ran was with CS and Judge? or just white hits?

galzohar · 11/21/07, 4:53 PM

While the more armor penetration you have the better it is to get more, the difference is very very small. Especially between different gearsets. As in someone geared for armor penetration gets very little additional benefit from armor penetration compared to someone who has none on his gear. Increasing effects - yes. Much - no.

noth · 11/21/07, 5:05 PM

galzohar - can you explain that a little more? Why is armor penetration better the more you have? I've seen a few people say this but I've never been able to see anything explaining why, or the mechanics behind armor pen... I guess i just don't understand how armor reduction on damage works...

• zeidrich · 11/21/07, 5:12 PM

Originally Posted by noth

galzohar - can you explain that a little more? Why is armor penetration better the more you have? I've seen a few people say this but I've never been able to see anything explaining why, or the mechanics behind armor pen... I guess i just don't understand how armor reduction on damage works...

In short, the lower mobs armor gets, the more benefit you get from taking off an additional point of armor.

Taking a mob from 250 armor to 0 armor gives you a larger increase in DPS than taking a mob from 500 to 250 armor.

Therefore taking a mob from 500 to 0 armor is more than twice as effective as taking a mob from 500 to 250 armor.

Thus, the second 250 armor penetration you get is better than the first 250 armor penetration you have.

galzohar · 11/21/07, 5:40 PM

In the above example, it would be FAR FAR less than twice as effective. More effective yes, but very slightly.

Armor is most easily looked at as an "EHP" (effective hit points) increase. EHP=HP*(1+armor/constant) where the constant can be derived easily if you play around with the (kinda well-known and agreed upon) armor mitigation formula. IIRC the constant is somewhere in the 10k area (or was it more like 12-13k? I really don't remember, but doesn't matter for the purpose of this post).

As you can see, if for example a target has 0.5 armor/constant, reducing armor/constant by 0.5 will cause the target to lose 1/3 of its EHP, and thus dying 50% faster (2/3 of the time taken to kill = 3/2 killing speed as distance = time * speed). If the target had 1 armor/constant, reducing 0.5 would reduce it from 2X EHP to 1.5X, or reducing EHP by 25%, thus reducing time needed to kill to 3/4 or increasing killing speed to 4/3 - 33% faster.

That shows how armor penetration relative DPS increase scales up as you get more of it. However if you look up at the appropriate threads regarding how much armor bosses actually have, or if you even just find (or use my rough) constant and compare it to your armor penetration, you can see that the numbers you're playing with are much smaller than that constant, therefore you get much smaller benefits.

Assuming a 10k constant, 1000 armor mob would have 1.1X EHP. Reducing it to 500 armor would reduce it to 1.05X EHP, increasing DPS by ~4.7%. Once you already have that 500 armor penetration and know how much DPS you do with it, reducing additional 500 armor would reduce the mob's EHP from 1.05X to 1 thus increasing DPS by ~5%. As you can see the additional effects of armor penetration even when you get a lot of armor penetration gear is not big at all, but it's definitely there.

EDIT: Just to point out that I didn't really bother looking for exact values from the appropriate threads, but if that interests you feel free to do so, however you will not get significantly different results as those numbers aren't too far from reality. You may get penetration to scale slightly better or slightly worse with more penetration, but you're *not* going to go and say "omg armor penetration has such awesome increasing effects! I have so much of it I need more!"

noth · 11/21/07, 6:11 PM

thanks galzohar, that was what I was looking for.

• zeidrich · 11/21/07, 6:14 PM

You misunderstood me. I was just saying the 500 point reduction was more than twice as effective as the 250 point reduction. NOT that the additional 250 point reduction gave twice the effect as the first 250 point reduction. I'm in perfect agreement that the scaling effects of stacking armor penetration is very marginal. But I just wanted to point out how it worked.

The DR formula is: Armor / (Armor+400+85*(Level+4.5*(Level-59)))

At level 70 that is Armor / (Armor + 70057.5)

500 armor is 0.70864188782198915777911632356589 % DR
250 armor is 0.35558084130427052590406428901611 % DR
0 armor is 0% DR

Assuming you're doing 1000 DPS before armor and a theoretical mob with 500 base armor.

At 0 armor reduction you're doing 992.91358112178010842220883676435 DPS
At 250 armor reduction you're doing 996.44419158695729474095935710984 DPS
At 500 armor reduction you're doing 1000 DPS.

Going from 250 to 500 armor reduction is a difference of 3.55580841304270525904064289016 DPS
Going from 0 to 250 armor reduction is a difference of 3.5306104651771863187505203455 DPS
Going from 0 to 500 armor reduction is a difference of 7.0864188782198915777911632356589

2*3.5306104651771863187505203455 = 7.061220930354372637501040691

7.0864188782198915777911632356589 > 7.061220930354372637501040691

So going from 0 to 500 armor reduction is more than twice as effective as going from 0 to 250 armor reduction.

But obviously, as you can see, the difference is minute. It is only 0.3% more. I would not spend time trying to stack armor reduction for some magical cumulative effect. It's tiny.

MAJOR EDIT: I may have made a mistake somewhere, as the poster above me has mentioned the constant for armor is around 10000. I remember it being 10,535 or something to that extent. The formula I used was from wowwiki, Armor - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft and I believe it could be wrong. But as the above poster mentioned, there is some constant (k) where DR is evaluated as Armor/(Armor-k), so while the numbers may be off in reality, the concept they illustrate should still be valid.

SomeoneRandom · 11/21/07, 6:48 PM

Well, for example completely naked, my paladin has 188 armor which according to my character sheet is 1.75% reduction, with an extra 861 armor (Devo Aura, closest thing I could get to 840) I have 9.04% reduction....

That is a VERY sizeable difference in damage in my book... a 1000 damage hit would do

982.5 (with executioner proc up) or
909.6 (without executioner proc up)
Extra 73 DMG!

Compare this to a middle armor range cloth user(picked a random mage in my guild) who has 2014 armor... 16.23% reduction, without devo aura down to 1153 armor, 10.08% reduction...

837.7(without executioner proc up)
899.2(with executioner proc up)
Extra 65 DMG!

The difference in the two is 12% increase in the effectiveness of your armor pen... granted its not much... but IS a noticeable increase.... especially once you have higher numbers and can start shredding mobs/players with 3kish down to 0...

Fiola · 11/21/07, 7:06 PM

I built a chart comparing the DPS gain of 100-1000 Armor Penetration when the target has 1K - 10K AC.

800 Armor Penetration
2K AC: +6.80% physical damage
4K AC: +5.82% physical damage
6k AC: +5.08% physical damage
8k AC: +4.51% physical damage

** Note: Used 10557 as armor constant, derived from my own character sheet percentages

So if Executioner has 1 PPM and lasts 15 seconds, then it's 25~% damage bonus over time. (+1.1~1.7% physical damage on average). If you do 1K DPS, with 70% of that physical damage, that would yield an average 7.7~11.9 DPS.

EDIT: Oh hey, I can copy/paste. Here's my numbers:

AC\AP	100	200	300	400	500	600	700	800	900	1000
1000	0.87%	1.76%	2.67%	3.59%	4.52%	5.48%	6.45%	7.44%	8.45%	9.47%
2000	0.80%	1.62%	2.45%	3.29%	4.15%	5.02%	5.90%	6.80%	7.72%	8.65%
3000	0.74%	1.50%	2.26%	3.04%	3.83%	4.63%	5.44%	6.27%	7.11%	7.96%
4000	0.69%	1.39%	2.10%	2.83%	3.56%	4.30%	5.05%	5.82%	6.59%	7.38%
5000	0.65%	1.30%	1.97%	2.64%	3.32%	4.01%	4.71%	5.42%	6.14%	6.87%
6000	0.61%	1.22%	1.85%	2.48%	3.11%	3.76%	4.41%	5.08%	5.75%	6.43%
7000	0.57%	1.15%	1.74%	2.33%	2.93%	3.54%	4.15%	4.77%	5.40%	6.04%
8000	0.54%	1.09%	1.64%	2.20%	2.77%	3.34%	3.92%	4.51%	5.10%	5.70%
9000	0.51%	1.03%	1.56%	2.09%	2.62%	3.17%	3.71%	4.27%	4.82%	5.39%
10000	0.49%	0.98%	1.48%	1.98%	2.49%	3.01%	3.53%	4.05%	4.58%	5.11%

galzohar · 11/21/07, 7:15 PM

Of course you're taking the armor range up to 8k, while in reality as I understand from the "boss armor values" thread is way highballing the boss armor, so the range of min~max DPS increase from armor penetration should be much smaller.

Fiola · 11/21/07, 7:24 PM

Originally Posted by galzohar

Of course you're taking the armor range up to 8k, while in reality as I understand from the "boss armor values" thread is way highballing the boss armor, so the range of min~max DPS increase from armor penetration should be much smaller.

It can go up that high in PvP. = )

Looking at that thread ([RAID] Boss armor values), there are mobs with pretty high AC - VR has 10.7k, for instance. With SA, that'd only be reduced to 8.2k~ a little lower with FF and various other debuffs.

In either case, it was just meant to be a rough estimate. 800 AC is worth around +5% physical damage against typical AC values, more if raid-debuffed. (Executioner is -840, and you can get some more -AC from gear.)