Cathmor

Okay, I've been following along with the thread for a while now, and have been raiding as ret since just a bit after 2.3. Got a question that has been touched on but I don't think has been really dug into... everyone always says, straight strength gems for every slot you can, just enough other color gems to activate your meta gem, and stack AP to the max. But, is there an AP breakpoint or point of inflection in which it becomes better for overall damage to start stacking crit? I remember this question being tossed around but I can't find it and don't remember if it came to a conclusion.

I realize of course that this breakpoint is probably at a fairly high value and would require procs/raid buffs to be active, but I'm just wondering if it would be better to start stacking crit at a certain point.

I am the light that brings the dawn.
http://e4ae.blogspot.com/
-Cathmor of Malfurion
formerly Baelor of Runetotem

 

flyingtoastr

I remember people used to say that crit became more effective than AP for sustained DPS at somewhere around 2000 AP unbuffed. I've never seen any math for it though, so later tonight when I get home from work I'll try to run some numbers to figure it out.

 

Cathmor

I look forward to your results, Dazanna. If you're even remotely close on your memory of 2k AP unbuffed, my gear gemming theory might need to change once I start upgrading this gear.

I am the light that brings the dawn.
http://e4ae.blogspot.com/
-Cathmor of Malfurion
formerly Baelor of Runetotem

 

Teer

There was a post about macros somewhere in the middle that I digged up to remake my actionbar.
The thing was that the macro should cast SoR if using shields, and SoC/SoB if using a... shirt. It sounded silly but it worked. Well, I read a bit on WoWWiki and discovered that there was a Two-Hand option to use with the [equipped:] modifier.
I tend to respecc a lot - mostly holy on raids, sometimes retribution, and sometimes protection. I pride myself in having sets for all three talent trees that is considered "very good".

So this is what I came up with:
The button is assigned to "1" for me. So Shift+1 and using a shield result in SoR. Shift+1 and using a two-hand weapon result in SoB. Just hitting 1 and using a two-hand weapon will result in Crusader Strike. Hitting 1 and having a shield and shirt (shirt there to separate the Protection spell from Holy) result in Holy Shield. And default hitting 1 will result in Holy Shock.


And on a personal note I'm going SSC as ret for the second time on Sunday, seems RL was impressed by my performance and utility (healed on two fights), even if I wasn't

 

Fiola

Let's see if I can get the math right this time ...


7 Str (Picked this value since it translates into 14 AP -> 1 AA DPS)
vs.
7 Crit rating

Assuming DS:
7 Str => 15.4 AP adds
+1,1 auto-attack DPS

Total: +1.1 DPS * (1+ Current Crit Rate)

7 Crit rating adds
+0.32% Crit
Total: +0.32% * Base Auto-attack DPS


There're 2 variables to account for: Crit Rate and your existing Base DPS (damage before crit is factored in). % damage modifiers WF, 2h Weap. Spec, Vengeance, etc. affect Crit/AP roughly equally and will be ignored. I'm also going to assume that SoC/CS are roughly proportional to your auto-attack DPS and can likewise be ignored.


Let's say you have a 126 DPS weapon 2k AP, and 30% crit. Base AA DPS is (126 DPS + 2000/14) = 269 DPS

7 Str adds 1.1 * (1 + 30%) = 1.43 DPS
0.32% adds 0.32% * 269 = 0.86 DPS


The AA DPS where the stats are equal is 1.1 / 0.32% = 344 DPS. With a 126 DPS weapon, you need to add 218 DPS from AP, or 3052 AP, in order for 7 Crit Rating to match 7 Str.


Now consider raid buffs. Kings: +10% Str (and worth +crit). LotP: +5% crit. Battle Shout (+350~ AP?). Unleashed Rage: +10% AP. Flasks/Elixirs, iJotC.

At a glance, raid buffs further increase the value of Str relative to Crit%.



If you want a more accurate break even point, you'd want to calculate out the benefits of AP -> CS (normalization means CS doesn't have the same AP-Crit relation as AA), and perhaps include the DPS added by judgements. (which scale with Crit but not AP)

 

• Avitus

There's actually a point of inflection calculation on the Graph tab of the spreadsheet ("Calculate Str/Crit POI").

For me personally the POI lies somewhere between 4800 and 5200 AP buffed, LotP makes the biggest difference obviously if you have it ticked on. Given that buffed to the eyeballs I can get ~4100-4200 AP, I don't think I have to worry about regemming for the POI anytime soon.

I've tried different sets of gear and raid buffed, for Kara gear -> T6 the POI seems to lie somewhere between 4300 and 5200 buffed.

Conclusion: Don't bother.

 

bellator

Hey guys, am back from my week away at work. In the whole work life balance thing, work officially crit life for 4000, life died :p

Anyway, have been through the threads i've missed and answered anything pertaining to the spreadsheet etc. If i have missed anything please let me know. I hope to get a new version out in the next few days though this may be delayed to next weekend due to work committments.

Will make the changes and add falling star for next version

Hey Petru, thanks for the compliment Have had a look at your issue, and i'm unable to figure out whats going wrong. Whilst Lightbringer is less of an upgrade if you are already hit capped without the chestpiece, there is still always a significant difference when I run the analysis. Can I suggest trying to start over. Re-download the latest version and re-try? Sorry I cant be of more help.

Yeah the spreadsheet accidentally has the 'new' Wotlk green socket instead of blue. (ps there is no 'new' green sockets). Will be fixed in next version. Only issue it causes at the moment is it is impossible to get the socker bonus with a green socket

Yeah it's true there are limitations to the item analysis. Whilst i think it gives a very good overview of the order of items, manual adjustments to items close to one another in the actual character sheet can show anything that has been lost in calculation. I plan to expand the analysis to include things such as socket bonus / hit etc to try to increase accuracy, but just have to be careful to balance accuracy with time to complete analysis.

Not really a question I know, but a little fyi, am thinking of putting a TPS calculator in the model as well

Another fyi, JoW gain from SoC is currently included in the dps spreadsheet, so anyone thinking they have to add it manually, no need.

Cheers, will be fixed next version

Hey, thanks for input, will reply in more detail a little later when i have more time.

Ramona, just as a little added note, after setting gear/buffs etc, you need to run "Graph Calculation" on the "Graph" tab for the Strength Equivalency to show, and then re-run it everytime you change gear to get updated numbers as this basically pulls data from the graph.

Thankyou, after a gruelling week at work this made me

I thought i did a thorough ZA sweep adding everthing, but seemed to miss this. Thanks. Will add it in next version

I can confirm the spreadsheet does work as if you are standing behind your target

Thank you kindly, it has been my pleasure

 

Valerys

It doesn't, which is also why it's better to simply manually check for gear upgrades from individual items.

 

orkyben

Awesome. Tyvm <3

 

• Zurm

Because my guild no longer runs SSC/TK, and while expertise is good, the difference in dps on the spreadsheet is minimal (due to seething fury having high ap + haste) and not worth the massive amounts of gold required to pay off some guild that is less progressed to let me get dibs on that belt.

 

• Theras

Tomorrow I'm going to download the latest version and do a sweep of the entire item list to do the following:

1. Organize by item level, while maintaining the existing plate/mail/leather and pve/pvp divisions.
2. Correct spelling errors.
3. Correct any stat errors I can find.

And email the lot of it to Bellator. Since I can't really contribute anything mathematically to the spreadsheet, I can at least help out aesthetically.

 

Feanortm

Hello, this is my first post here (though I've been following the ret thread here since the one that reached 100+ pages).
I have always been ret.
Now, I have some questions regarding my gear and ways to improve it.
You can see my armory from my profile. I will be replacing the shoulders with [Pauldrons of Gruesome Fate]
Not sure what cloak and ring slot 1 armory is showing, but i got Aran's cloak and use revered Violet Eye ring for Karazhan.

Yes, I know my hit is too low, will be correcting that.
Hit rating aside, what piece can I take that would be the biggest improvement (I have access to badge, Kara and pvp gear) ?
Most of the other badge plate has way too much hit to be an upgrade from what I have.

Also, when raiding, should I be chugging mana pots and using consecrate and exorcism, or just SoC, CS and judge with haste/strength pots?

On the last Kara run I scored first place on damage, even with the lowish hit i had.

 

Ragnor

The easiest way to tell is to enter your current gear, gems, enchant and buffs you normally have into bellator's spreadsheet. After that make a list of upgrades and just try switching them in one at a time and looking at the results.

The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.

www.retpaladin.com

 

Feanortm

I did, but it's showing some weird results. Plus I think I noticed some gear missing. Will mess around with it a bit more.

Macro question: are there any other, besides cast judgement, reseal SoC, that will be helpful for pve?

 

CaptBooyah

If you're not hitcapped already.. the dps increase will be extremely better than pieces without. I like the badge gear for the fact that they take care of all my +hit in such a small amount of pieces meaning I can use better pieces in other slots.

Plus they have a lot of stam so when I stopped using the helm, I gemmed it with even more stam in case I ever needed a huge boost. Its pretty easy to know how much dps you do at 0 health

 

Aurius

Seem to have hit a brick wall with my DPS recently. I can hit 850 on Kael attempts (We are still learnig him, getting into phase 4 consistently) but regardless of flask/elixir/haste pot use I seem to not get much outside of that 850ish mark. Will try a few of the spreadsheets, maybe ive hit a gear issue and just arent getting any lucky drops.

 

Feanortm

DOn't claim that I know much, but will try:
Are you really using Bladesfist's Breadth and Libram of Righteous Power in TK? They are easily replacable by better items.
Your gear should be good enough for more than 850. Are you in a melee group?
If you are using haste pots, are you having mana issues, despite SA healing?
ALso, you are over the hit cap, change the head enchant to

 

Aurius

I am finally allowed to remain in th emelee group with an enhance shammy and warrior
I use haste pots when able to but on some fights not as much as id like.

I know about the Libram from Heroic Blood furnace. I am allergic to pugs and its like pulling teeth to get the needed healer and tank online together to get certain dungeons like BF ran. Started pugging recently normal Slab for the lower city rep. I should have the better enchant in a week or so.
Bladefists Breadth yes. Only trinkets I have seen better is the Crusade Darkmoon card, (Expensive and hard to find on my blasted server) And tsunami talisman. I am also saving up the badges to perhaps get one of the battlemasters trinkets.

 

• Avitus

Just convince some friends or guildies to run BF heroic up to the first boss on a daily/frequent basis. It takes about 15 mins up to the first boss and to kill him with a focused group.

Oh, and Battlemaster's Trinkets are crap for damage.

 

galzohar

Remember latency doesn't really play a role when it comes to timing HoW/slam, as if you know your latency is 200ms you can click it 200ms before. However if your latency is 150-250ms, you have to click it 150ms before to be safe, and lose 0-100ms (50ms on average) every time. So the time lost should be dependant on your ping's variance, not your actual ping, assuming the swing timer is actually working properly. Any time lost beyond ping variance/2 would be because you simply can't click an ability at perfect accuracy, but with a countdown bar moving your human reaction time becomes a non-factor - it's not that you have to react to "HoW NOW!" (optimally no less than 0.2s), but rather "HoW in 3... 2... 1... now" (which would normally be a lot less than the former). Of course it may collide with other global cooldowns but I suppose you should first check if HoW is worth using in *any* kind of situation before you check if it's worth using over other abilities, as even if delaying other abilities for it is not worthwhile, it might still be worthwhile to use it every time you had just attacked, hadn't cast any GCD ability in the last 1.5s and won't need to cast one in the next 0.5s (or just delay it by up to 0.5s).

Considering all that, it would take more than the rough guestimation I've seen here to rule out HoW useage. Although you should also consider the lack of mana efficiency which might make you have to choose between this and concecration, however it still takes more math to figure out which would be the better burnoff as HoW is more mana efficient but concecration doesn't waste 0.5s+ of autoattacks.

Overall going back to being rough, with 1200 HoW and 30% crit it'll do 3120 dps for 0.5s seconds... I don't think your autoattack can come close, not even your total dps so delaying specials would still be worth it for HoW if you have the mana and perform it perfectly. However waste 1/2 a second of autoattack and it's down to 1560 dps, which still may or may not be higher than your autoattack dps and/nor your full dps. At the end it really depends on how much time you waste on casting a HoW, which is very personal (I've seen great fury warriors say they cannot perform a good slam rotation whatsoever, while others put very nice dps with it).

 

Feanortm

I believe [Abacus of Violent Odds] and [Hourglass of the Unraveller] will both be upgrades over Bladefist's Breadth. You can choose between them, depending on whether you need more crit or AP. The first works quite well with Heroism and haste potions.

You can get both from non-heroic instances.

 

flyingtoastr

You won't get as much DPS out of a Battlemaster trinket, but the On Use effect can be very helpful. On any sort of survival fight (Naj, Archimonde, etc.) that extra health can be a life saver, and staying alive is the best method of upping your DPS.

As a pure DPS trinket you'll be better off getting an Abacus or DST, but Battlemaster trinkets are far from worthless.

 

Larhia

hey ladys and gentleman

i've read this threat now for time to time to get a better knowledge of playing a ret paladin in raids.
we are raiding at this time ssc & tk , vashj/kael/alar left in these instances.
i want to do my very best to raise my dps in raids. at this time i can do 800-1100 dps, belongs to encounter.
im using flask of relentless attacks, str buff food and haste pots.
my gear is the following:
The World of Warcraft Armory
( im still working on the belt next items i want to bit on, are helmet from voidreaver and hydross shoulders, also season 3 gloves are in work)

the rotation i use is simple, cs every time its ready and same with judgement. (im using soc)
most of the time i'am in melee grp, and get windfury / str- / agi totem / ap shout / drums etc.
does anyone have any sugestions to optimize equip and/or buffs or anything else ?

p.s.: sorry for stupid question, but is there anywhere a "how to" for the bellator spread sheet ? dont really know what to do :P

thx for help

 

Feanortm

Question: With my current gear, can i do ZA ?

 

orkyben

Flask of Relentless Assault, Roasted Clefthoof and Haste Potions (mana permitting) are the best choices. Could always add in a "Scroll of Strength" or something, usually fairly cheap on the AH - I have a bank full of them! Obviously if your not in the "Windfury" group, crack out a sharpening stone.

On the subject of your helmet, don't take the one from VR. An excessive amount of +Hit - and you seem to be nearly on the cap already, and it doesn't have a meta gem! The 12 Agi + 3% Increased Crit damage gem is a HUGE dps increase. Your current helm is far superior.

Hydross shoulders are sexy, use them myself.

For your belt, maybe the [Red Belt of Battle]? Someone in your guild should have the recipe.

Attack cycle, thats pretty much it. CS and Judgement whenever they are off cooldown. Make sure you use the cycle on the first post in this thread, using the 9 second judgement. Use a macro to re-apply your seal and just watch your GCD carefully.

Don't use SoC though! Your a Blood Elf and have been blessed with the glory of Seal of Blood! Use it - its a huge increase over SoC - and ofc you will regain mana from Spiritual Attunement.

=)