When I did this, buttons in Character sheets works fine. But I'm still getting the same error in Item Calc sheet. Any advice how to solve this problem?
If you are using Office 07, You must check "Transition Formula Entry" for every spreedsheats in the file and save as .xlsm (excel using macros)
During the fight, I had to stop dealing damage 6 times for 10-15 sec each time to get down on the aggro list. Even that, I was at the very top of the aggro list during the whole fight and finished only 11th on the damage done.
I must say I didnt have enchance shaman in my group and Fanaticism and Blessing of Salvation were up.
How do you guys manage your threat during that fight?
Last time I fought VR, the enhancement shaman in my group totem twisted Tranquil Air in with windfury, and it worked quite well.
During the fight, I had to stop dealing damage 6 times for 10-15 sec each time to get down on the aggro list. Even that, I was at the very top of the aggro list during the whole fight and finished only 11th on the damage done.
I must say I didnt have enchance shaman in my group and Fanaticism and Blessing of Salvation were up.
How do you guys manage your threat during that fight?
Try to get your raid leader to let the protection paladin go first. (if you have one, if you don't have one... well then get one)
When I tank VR I normally have WF + holy aura = 80-90% of the fight I don't lose aggro. Then the druid OT takes them the rest of the 10-20% home.
Yeah, putting the Paladin tank in the DPS group in place of a Rogue makes Void Reaver a real delight. He gets Windfury, Heroism, and Sanctity Aura then; that's a winning formula for an absurdly high threat cap. The same combo is exceptionally useful on the Essence of Anger in Black Temple, too.
For a 3.6 AS weapon swinging over 5918 seconds, we would expect:
Hits: 1644~
SoC Procs (using 7 PPM): 690
Proc/Min: 7
At 1785 swings over 5918 seconds, the data shows an effective AS of 3.315, which would be about ~9% haste. Swings increased to 1785/1644 = 108.6%, and Procs increased to 778/690 = 112~%.
Any thoughts?
EDIT: Anyone got WWS parses of Ret paladins using SoC in haste gear to share?
I quickly took my trusty [Cold Iron Pick] and ran down to blasted lands to check out SoV (can't respec for SoC because its a raid night).
Using no passive haste (3.00 attack speed) there was a proc every swing without fail like usual. Using 76 passive haste rating ([Belt of Seething Fury] and [Pillager's Gauntlets]) to reduce the swing time to 2.86 seconds there were swings without procs, as expected by the old system. From this I can surmise that PPM mechanics still take the hasted weapon speed when determining proc chance.
I would call his numbers luck, but the sample space is too large. More testing needs to be done.
I myself don't have any haste gear, but I did a baseline parse tonight to determine if Seal of Command's actual proc rate is indeed 7%. I'll be leaving this on overnight, as well; this is just what I have so far.
Attack speed - 2.00
Melee strikes - 7950
Seal of Command procs - 1886
Time - 4 hours, 25 minutes, 0 seconds
A 7 PPM Seal would be a 23.33% proc rate at this attack speed, and my observed proc rate was 23.72% (which works out to 7.117 PPM). Of course, a sample of this size still has approximately a 1.10% margin of error, which is why I plan on engaging in further naked combat overnight tonight. I'm going to get in contact with the guild leadership and see if I can snake some rotting haste gear for scientific purposes this week, but I'd be loathe to spend DKP on an experiment when I don't plan on actually using any of it under any other circumstances.
Maybe getting as many shamans as you can from your guild+friends list and getting a chain of bloodlusts would do it. With that much haste, the difference should be obvious fairly fast.
The WWS didn't help any unfortunately, and the time requirements to do 7000+ swings did not exist in the time frame between my post being copy/pasted here and the next post trying to refute it(also no screen shots or anything provided). The time did NOT exist between those posts for a paladin to test it with 7000+ swings, it just didn't exist and couldn't have been done, we're talking hours upon hours of sitting at your computer on autoattack refreshing seal of command and making sure not to break combat and never miss a swing, it's really tough. I had a hard time stomaching an hour and a half of it, it's my only limitation is that I eventaulyl have to go to work and can't continue the tests without fucking up the data by having to leave.
The WWS was WAAAAAAAAY too short of a sample and only about 50 swings, with isn't even 1/10th of the data I provided.
Shaman bloodlust would require me to find roughly 20 shamans to chain it the entire time rotating them in and out of my group, and also the problem comes that it has an effect similar to seal of crusader, not haste rating, which may ACTUALLY affect it a different way, the only reasonable way I can see doing this is by me buckling down and spending at least 20k swings per test group(roughly 18 1/2 hours of nothing but swinging and refreshing SoC).
I'm very glad you guys are very open to working with me on this though, on the wow forums it's turned quite ugly as we have an obviously carried through content ret pally trying to theory craft using this very threat as 'proof' without having any actual backup, while I've run a few tests hasted and unhasted that seem to be pointing me in a very very different direction(I will admit sample size was small for both tests but I have a job/life and I really need more time with them, but the data so far is 100% spot on).
My reasoning behind what is happening, Seal of command is NOT a similar proc to DST/Crusader/Battlemaster/etc. It is more akin to WF totem dropped by a shaman. I beleive when it is cast it is giving me a fixed % chance to proc based on my weapon speed that is a self buff, like WF totem is given the flat % chance to proc. This % chance to proc seems to be based on WEAPON speed and not ATTACK speed. Haste affect attack speed not weapon speed. This would make all the data I've collected so far make exact sense. Seal of command is obviously not a proc akin to other weapon enchanter, and it's not similar to WF weapon as the two stack and SoC can stack with other weapon imbue type things such as sharpening stone. I beleive it's SIMILAR to WF totem but still in a class all on it's own that was NOT affected by the mentioned haste PPM nerfs.
I will note that I am NOT the person to ask about ret pally DPS in any possible way, I am a protection paladin who hates to see DPS gear go to waste because no one wants it and will whore himself out for offspec loot. I do NOT claim to do good dps, and can barely break 1100 with WF totem atm in kara(I'm not allowed to respec in the higher instances yet, so I pretty much get WF totem and only that for dps increases). I DO have access to the haste gear though and the will to sit down and try and test this as I was ret before BC and would at some point in the future like to play with it. So please other high end pallies who have access to this gear, please help me out! I present to you my theory, pick at it, figure out why the fuck it's doing this and test it yourself with larger sample sizes if you can(don't make up random numbers like some people and claim you ran proc watch though! People have been doing that already, it's plain stupid and their math doesn't check out, like the amount of time not matching up with the amount of hasted swings they claim to have made!)
I myself don't have any haste gear, but I did a baseline parse tonight to determine if Seal of Command's actual proc rate is indeed 7%. I'll be leaving this on overnight, as well; this is just what I have so far.
Attack speed - 2.00
Melee strikes - 7950
Seal of Command procs - 1886
Time - 4 hours, 25 minutes, 0 seconds
A 7 PPM Seal would be a 23.33% proc rate at this attack speed, and my observed proc rate was 23.72% (which works out to 7.117 PPM). Of course, a sample of this size still has approximately a 1.10% margin of error, which is why I plan on engaging in further naked combat overnight tonight. I'm going to get in contact with the guild leadership and see if I can snake some rotting haste gear for scientific purposes this week, but I'd be loathe to spend DKP on an experiment when I don't plan on actually using any of it under any other circumstances.
This would be so easy if we could find a weapon to swing at 8.57 attack speed(100% chance to proc) per swing. Your data seems so far fairly consitent with mine for unhasted procs, so good stuff right there, mine was -1% or so the other way(against + or - 1% error or so) so we've definately determined base proc. My hasted data seems to show an oddity in the way haste and SoC works.
I did manage to make a shaman bloodlust my earlier to see what it would do to SoC and it seemed to not affect the proc rate at all, I was still swinging away with the same chance, but again this isn't haste rating and I had an extremely tiny sample, I might have just been lucky.
Any help on useful macro's to use? Castsequence does not work for anything worthwhile, so basically i'm stuck not wanting to use any macros, because they don't really seem to be anything but a bother.
The WWS didn't help any unfortunately, and the time requirements to do 7000+ swings did not exist in the time frame between my post being copy/pasted here and the next post trying to refute it(also no screen shots or anything provided). The time did NOT exist between those posts for a paladin to test it with 7000+ swings, it just didn't exist and couldn't have been done, we're talking hours upon hours of sitting at your computer on autoattack refreshing seal of command and making sure not to break combat and never miss a swing, it's really tough.
All I said was that SoV still acted the same way as it always had. It is a perfect 20 PPM. You will always have a proc with a 3.00 speed weapon. Because of that all you need is to see 1 autoattack where there is not a SoV proc using haste gear. That one attack proves that it is still the new weapon speed that determines proc chance. You don't need 7000 swings to prove that and frankly I don't have the time. But if you really want a WWS/SS of it check the old Ret Pally thread around page 70 when I first tested this.
SoC might be different, I don't know. But this does lend a lot of support to the old idea that PPM mechanics take the weapon speed after haste when determining proc chances.
All I said was that SoV still acted the same way as it always had. It is a perfect 20 PPM. You will always have a proc with a 3.00 speed weapon. Because of that all you need is to see 1 autoattack where there is not a SoV proc using haste gear. That one attack proves that it is still the new weapon speed that determines proc chance. You don't need 7000 swings to prove that and frankly I don't have the time. But if you really want a WWS/SS of it check the old Ret Pally thread around page 70 when I first tested this.
SoC might be different, I don't know. But this does lend a lot of support to the old idea that PPM mechanics take the weapon speed after haste when determining proc chances.
/shrug
For all we know, SoC *is* on different mechanics.
After all, SoB procs behave like SoC procs in many ways - but cannot proc JoW/weapon procs. SoC procs can. Using SoB to prove that SoC can't proc JoW wouldn't be true.
EDIT:
Your test shows that SoV gets reduced proc chance (same PPM) when hasted via trinket. His test shows that SoC gets same proc chance (higher PPM) when using haste gear.
If we can repeat his test, that tells us that SoC does in fact scale with haste. (Theras's test showing us a base PPM for SoC ~10% lower than the SoC haste test)
EDITx2:
My bad, was thinking of your earlier test for 2.2.
EDIT:
Your test shows that SoV gets reduced proc chance (same PPM) when hasted via trinket. His test shows that SoC gets same proc chance (higher PPM) when using haste gear.
The quick test I did yesterday was using passive haste gear ([Pillager's Gauntlets] and [Belt of Seething Fury]). If you guys need it I'll grab a test after the realms come back up later and get a WWS/Procwatch SS. Like I said though we need more testing before we can call anything on this.
On paladins EU forums happened to appear very well formulated idea why SoC do not need to work like other PPM based procs, that provide buffs. The explanation given by Axone is just an idea, but will as well explain why SoV testing would not be valid for SoC.
Originally Posted by Axone
All the talk about "PPM" might have caused some people to go overboard and blatantly assume that because SoC also "uses PPM" then it will also be affected.
However, there is an important difference between procs like SoC and procs like Dragonspine Trophy.
Many weapon enchants/trinkets/etc procs a buff that lasts a set amount of time. The point of having a fixed proc rate on such an effect would be to ensure that it on average is up a fixed time fraction. The Dragonspine Trophy buff for example, should on average be up 25% of the time, regardless of attack speed.
Haste circumvented this intended since the proc chance was calculated using the base weapon speed rather than the "hasted" attack speed. Thus many proc based buffs were more beneficial for people stacking haste rating which obviously wasn't intended. This was indeed a fix rather than a nerf.
I believe that the changes to use the actual weapon speed rather than the base weapon speed ONLY were made for procs that triggers time limited buffs, e.g Dragonspine Trophy, Mongoose etc.
Even though Seal of Command uses a fixed proc rate it doesn't proc a time limited buff and therefore I find it unlikely that it would have been affected by these changes.
"-Libram of Avengement is applying it's buff when auto-attacks refresh judgements. "
It had to end eventually.
Totem twisting has been a known issue for over three months, and of course no fix yet. However, the Libram bug is an easier bug to fix .
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
So following this haste/soc discussion.. in patch xyz when they changed trinket/enchant/weapon proc's to be based off our hasted weapon speed rather then the base weapon speed (as previously) we all assumed SoC was affected.
7000 swings seems to prove otherwise? I'm interested in seeing Theras' results next and I guess we need to look at closely how haste/soc is being handled in the dps spreadsheet.
The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.
Just went to outlands, with haste + expersise gear ( i didn't even want dodge/parry on my recap) and hited on of those inmortals mobs for 30:26.
I had enough haste to get my 3.8 weapon to 3.45speed, i got 530 hits/crits in those 30:26 min, no parry or dodge, as you can see, the efect of haste on my weapon was perfect as normal.
On the other had, i only got 219 SoC procs out of those 530 hits/crits, at 7 PPM the number should be 223 procs, but since PPM efects are irregular, is normal to get some small variations... just like i did.
Haste didn't affect my SoC PPM on any way
Sure, is not a big test, but i won't waste more than 30min to prove something thats so freaking clear: Haste does not affect SoC at all.
Lately, I have been finding myself feeling pleased with my gear direction and choices only to be disappointed when viewing the WWS reports from my latest foray into BT. As most can see from my armory, my raid leader still isn't completely sold on bringing a Ret pally to all boss encounters, so my gear upgrade options are lackluster at best. At this point I basically get to see Naj'entus up through Akama and then Winterchill through Kaz'Rogal.
I know that weapons are one of the biggest boons to our DPS but I can't seem to get my hands on a decent upgrade since I'm locked out of Archimonde, RoS, and Gorefiend. Basically, what I'm looking for are some suggestions and ideas on how I can improve my personal DPS with the gear I have currently (and some badge upgrades later on). Below is my latest WWS encompassing the entire raid time. What am I doing right? More importantly, what am I doing wrong? I've spent a lot of time on Maxdps.com doing research and theorycrafting so I have a decent idea of what path I need to be taking, I think I'm just finding myself discouraged that the road has so much resistance.
Just went to outlands, with haste + expersise gear ( i didn't even want dodge/parry on my recap) and hited on of those inmortals mobs for 30:26.
I had enough haste to get my 3.8 weapon to 3.45speed, i got 530 hits/crits in those 30:26 min, no parry or dodge, as you can see, the efect of haste on my weapon was perfect as normal.
On the other had, i only got 219 SoC procs out of those 530 hits/crits, at 7 PPM the number should be 223 procs, but since PPM efects are irregular, is normal to get some small variations... just like i did.
Haste didn't affect my SoC PPM on any way
Sure, is not a big test, but i won't waste more than 30min to prove something thats so freaking clear: Haste does not affect SoC at all.
If haste does effect SoC's proc rate, the expected number of procs is 213 (40.25% chance to proc per swing). If haste does not effect SoC's proc rate, the expected number of procs is 235 (44.33% chance to proc per swing). If that was a large enough sample size to say anything (it isn't anywhere close to large enough), it'd point towards Haste affecting SoC.
Lately, I have been finding myself feeling pleased with my gear direction and choices only to be disappointed when viewing the WWS reports from my latest foray into BT. As most can see from my armory, my raid leader still isn't completely sold on bringing a Ret pally to all boss encounters, so my gear upgrade options are lackluster at best. At this point I basically get to see Naj'entus up through Akama and then Winterchill through Kaz'Rogal.
I know that weapons are one of the biggest boons to our DPS but I can't seem to get my hands on a decent upgrade since I'm locked out of Archimonde, RoS, and Gorefiend. Basically, what I'm looking for are some suggestions and ideas on how I can improve my personal DPS with the gear I have currently (and some badge upgrades later on). Below is my latest WWS encompassing the entire raid time. What am I doing right? More importantly, what am I doing wrong? I've spent a lot of time on Maxdps.com doing research and theorycrafting so I have a decent idea of what path I need to be taking, I think I'm just finding myself discouraged that the road has so much resistance.
One thing you guys can do to improve your WWS reports is to get enough people sending in their combat logs to get a REAL reading of what everyone is doing. See all those %'s under Pres.? For the entire night those should be at least 90% and up, not somewhere in the mid-50's. On boss fights when people are (generally) closer together, it should be even higher. Did you guys seriously swap out 7 different people over the course of the night? O_o
As far as gear goes, put some blue gems in your belt, and take out that AGI gem please >< If you're hard up on gear because of raiding, get in a decent 5-man arena team and grind out some arena points. If you're not busy raiding, you should be busy doing something if you want to be taken seriously. An upgrade to your weapon would be huge, amongst other things of course.
All in all, from what I can see of your gear, you'll definitely need some more upgrades before you can contend in Hyjal/BT progression raids. A buddy of mine is in mostly PvP gear, and is pumping out 1200 DPS in SSC/TK, so hop to it!
01/28/08, 8:27 AM
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