I posted about this about 30 pages ago when we were debating about solo grinding as a ret pally.

In a raid the main three sources of regen (BoW, JoW, and Mana Spring) are all technically outside buffs. While you can get by well enough using just these three in a raid, while soloing and PvPing and to an extent 10 mans you typically won't have any of them. This, combined with low mana pools, can cause problems.

So in reality our regen "problems" don't really apply to a raid situation unless you are blowing max rank everything at every cooldown (which no class with the exception of enhancement shamans can do). I think it would be nice to see some sort of passive regen (which would also help prot paladins with their offtanking woes), but as a raiding ret paladin it shouldn't be one of your top concerns. With the impending reitemization of Ret specific gear we could even see Intellect gear becoming viable, making the mana issues even less of a problem.

Is it an issue? Yes. Is it a particularly important issue? Not really.

i appologize if it has been asked before, but when judgement of light procs who gets threat from this heal? if it is the attacker then maybe it obviously isnt going to be as useful as wisdom. im trying to get my guild to allow a single ret pally for the buffs and such but i gotta cover all my angles, thanks in advance

Heals from JoL are much like Lifebloom and PoM, the aggro from the heal goes to the person receiving the heal. Basically the heal counts as that person's heal and they get all the threat that it would cause. Incidentally this is also why JoL can't proc SA.

so jol could potentialy be harmful to a raid because a tank will gain less threat from jol than a rogue perhaps. or will a tank gain more threat because of nearly unlimited rage and instant attacks? sunder, shield slam, revenge, autoattack etc?

From what I generally see, rogues see about 30% more JoL procs than a tank. With the rogue having salvation, this should pan out to be about equal threat gain for each. Of course on a fight where a rogue wouldn't take much damage or any at all(if such a fight exists anymore lol), then it would just be free threat gains for the tank.

As for sololing/grinding, I think between JoW/SoC and BoW, I can go about 15-20 mobs before drinking/eating. I know your mileage may vary, but I don't chug haste pots farming =P Its just a question of performance vs efficiency.

I dont think any of our hunters raid with aspect of the viper on during raids, and from what I hear its not uncommon for one of our hunters to go through 30 pots a night.

In my experience when doing t5 content I would have to chug mana potions a LOT as most of the fights the damage is aimed at the tanks. When you start to get into BT/MH there is GOBs of damage going out to the raid, so you gain a lot back from SA.

There are a lot of ways to shave mana usage. Downranking spells, MP5 elixirs/flasks, dark runes, potions etc. Just keep in mind, you can go full burn and do more damage in a short amount of time, but a paladin out of mana is pretty much hosed; its hard to get back once you don't have it. I think paladins are a little on the short end of the stick in terms of mana regen, but if everything was easy it wouldn't be fun. Besides, retribution is known for its burst nature.

If I have 3 blessings, I get kings, might, and salv. I can't afford to get wisdom with 3 pallies, and even with 4 I usually accept Light just to make the job of the healing pallies a little easier. Mana is tight on trash, and moderate on bosses... I'm hoping that when I get 2pc t6 (waiting on chest, our illidan seems to only want to drop protector) I'll have a much easier time with mana, but I have no idea how the bonus works. ATM I'm hoping its something like an extra JoW.

Seems new badge loot is coming in 2.4, taken from MMO-Champion

This could possibly be Retribution gear, that blues have been "hinting" at for a long time.

From that quote by Drysc I was thinking that they would make us want the ZA warrior badge loot, but maybe they realized the folly of that and just make us custom gear. Hopefully something along the lines of Season 3.

To me it sounds like they are gonna skip the melee stats with spelldmg itemization and let us share the same gear as dps warriors. I would assume they are gonna redesign the set items the same way as s3, that is melee stats and maybe some int on them. They will probably make some talent reworking to adjust us to better fit into the warrior plate gear.

But maybe I am just reading too much into it.

Thanks for the replies Avitus and Fiola. Here is what I was referring to in equation form for a Sinister Strike:

Sinister_Strike = (AP / 14) * Normalized_Weapon_Speed + Weapon_Damage + 98

With my talents and MH weapon:

Sinister_Strike = [(AP / 14) * 2.4 + 268 + 98] * 1.06 * 1.1

Now my question regarding Improved Sanctity Aura is whether the bonus is applied at the end of the calculation (the intuitive, tooltip-read method) or whether the aura modifies the damage of the weapon before entering the SS equation (the alternative method, suggested by the paper doll "damage" number). So, for me:

Null_Sinister_Strike = [(AP / 14) * 2.4 + 268 + 98] * 1.06 * 1.1 * 1.02
or
Alternative_Sinister_Strike = [(AP / 14) * 2.4 + (268*1.02) + 98] * 1.06 * 1.1

If I use 2000 as my attack power for the sake of a sample calculation, the difference in mean non-critting sinister strikes between these two calculation methods would be:

Null_Sinister_Strike = 843
Alternative_Sinister_Strike = 833

So the question is which method of calculation is used in-game. I suppose one way to test would be for me to remove all proc-able effects and armor penetration and obtain a sample of sinister strikes with Improved Sanctity Aura and see if the sample mean differs from the theorectical mean based on my resulting AP and weapon. I suspect that the variance of any in-game sample would be way too high to detect which method is used, not to mention that one would have to look exclusively at non-crits or all-crits (thus requiring additional combat log labor). Essentially, I wanted to know if any test like this had been done before. Most likely the aura damage is tacked onto the end of the equation (Null model) but I was thinking there is a possibility of the alternative model. Under the null model, Improved Sanctity Aura will not really change anything in our rogue spreadsheets except to increase damage calculations by 2% across the board. Under the alternative model, there might be different behavior, which supports the argument to add this aura to our spreadsheets.

The null SS calc is correct, it is just a simple 2% at the end of your normal damage.

I have read through all 73 pages, but this is my first time posting. Looking at the first page I noticed that, for a BE, 5% haste is +4% damage. I was wondering if the Iron Counterweight, which adds 1.27% constant haste, would be a better increase in dps than savagrey and potentially some of the other more expensive enchants (at least for BE).

Forgive me if this question has been addressed in a different post. Thanks for your time and the information.

No, it would be significantly worse than any other level 70 two handed weapon enchant. Punching in 20 haste rating as your weapon enchant into the spreadsheet can tell you that easily enough.

SoC is a melee attack, and since JoC uses spell hit and +damage it is a spell.

I was wondering with all this talk of Mp5 problems, how do paladins with 5/5 Benediction and 3/3 Sanc. Judgements feel their mana conservation/longevity is doing compared to thoes of us using 2/5 Benediction and 3/3 Sanc. Judgement?

I know the math was done that having Benediction actually hurts Sanc. Judgement, but we're still putting points in it because it's still one of two of our passive Mp5 abilities. I'd like to find enough mana in a typical fight so I can stop chain potting Super Mana's and weave in a Haste or Heroic pot instead. Anything that will increase my DPS.

This is pretty much it, a flat 1.02 multiplier at the end of any damage, whether special or white (which is fortunately the best case scenario).

I believe they show it on your character spreadsheet simply to reflect the change to your white damage (similar to berserker buff in PVP), so that shouldn't confuse you.

I have both and as long as I have Blessing of Wisdom on and Judgement of Wisdom is on the target, I don’t have to use mana pots too often. I had considered dropping Benediction and picking up Imp BoM instead for our melee classes.

I like it for fights like Hydross and Voidreaver, where the tanks might not be able to hit the peak when it comes to threat. Occasionally I'll use it on Vashj, depending on who's going to be tanking nagas.

I'm just starting MH/BT, so I don't know how many threat-sensitive fights there are, but I'd be surprised if there aren't at least a couple.

Don't worry, I'll be running a definitive test once the 2.4.0 PTR is out. Since new badge rewards have been announced, I don't feel like blowing 150 of them on a test, so I'll be doing it in a consequence-free environment.

Edit: Also, for what it's worth, an unhasted SoC proc rate I've pinned down at precisely 7 PPM (~21 hours of log parsing at 2.0 weapon speed). So that's good to know at least, even though I guess we knew that already. But now we know it.

The only aggro sensitive fight in MH/BT is Bloodboil.

Keep in mind you're sacrificing 1 trinket slot so you can attack 1-2 seconds earlier on Hydross switches and "maybe" not grab aggro if you crit, instead of just holding back for a moment.

I can possibly see it used for Voidreaver I guess.

Sounds great, looking forward to confirmed results

Quick question does anyone have a good list of boss armor pre debuff and with debuffs like Faerie Fire/ Curse of Recklessness/ Sunder Armor applied?

Also what is the most currect version of Bellator's DPS Spreadsheet?