Marksmanship
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Special Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.5s
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 148 Mp5
Survival
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Special Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.5s
Ideal M5 from JoW: 148 Mp5
A comment on this.
Many Marksmanship and Survival hunters don't do a straight Autoshot and Special shot rotation, which is what among hunters is refered to a 1:1 rotation. It's quite common to do a rotation where you do a special shot after every second Steady Shot., which is called a 1:1.5.
Example: Autoshot, Steady shot, Special Shot, Auto shot, Steady Shot
Assuming 0 latency, you can do this without losing time to autoshot clipping.
This means that instead of hitting with 4 shots every 5 seconds, you will hit 5 shots during the same time which should increase the gains of JoW.
SoC Rank6 Example
Mana consumption 45 mana per second
DPS : 1043
Melee 44 %
Seal of Command (Holy) 24 %
Crusader Strike 22 %
Judgement of Command (Holy) 10 %
DPS time : 3mn
This numbers were posted by you at the beginning. I did some testings myself and I was oom after 1 m 48 - 1 m 53 sec with 6843 mana
1 m 51 sec theor. 18 CS and 13 JoC - I managed 17 CS and 11 JoC - that means 4012 + 3982-( 119x11)=6683 mana spent -> 60,2 mana/sec
There is a difference between % dmg of CS and SoC, this can result from my faster weapon pvp S2 Sword.
The biggest issue is mana, your fight lasted 3 min vs my fight 1m 51 sec. I have 60,2 mana/sec and you 45 mana/sec
Edit: I use PVP S2/3 Gear with BT haste Ring and SSC Neck and PVP S2 Sword->no mp5
I will go tonight and perform serie of tests, lets say 10 tests and see how it goes.
Many Marksmanship and Survival hunters don't do a straight Autoshot and Special shot rotation, which is what among hunters is refered to a 1:1 rotation. It's quite common to do a rotation where you do a special shot after every second Steady Shot., which is called a 1:1.5.
Example: Autoshot, Steady shot, Special Shot, Auto shot, Steady Shot
Assuming 0 latency, you can do this without losing time to autoshot clipping.
This means that instead of hitting with 4 shots every 5 seconds, you will hit 5 shots during the same time which should increase the gains of JoW.
Oh, nevermind. I see where I was confused. I wasn't expecting commas.
That about matches up to my numbers, time-wise, and I am wearing a few hunter pieces on the PTR because I haven't been building my set. I'm guessing I need to hammer our Holy Paladins upside the head until they place Wisdom on bosses from now on.
Perhaps I'm missing this, because of the lack of scripts, etc.
But... does the spreadsheet have a spot for ring enchants? I'm a max level enchanter, and with the patch I'm trying to compare the usefulness of having a total of +8 all stats, +24 spell damage, and +4 weapon damage. I'm assuming they're good in about that order, but I could be wrong!
Perhaps I'm missing this, because of the lack of scripts, etc.
But... does the spreadsheet have a spot for ring enchants? I'm a max level enchanter, and with the patch I'm trying to compare the usefulness of having a total of +8 all stats, +24 spell damage, and +4 weapon damage. I'm assuming they're good in about that order, but I could be wrong!
The spreadheet does not current incorporate ring enchants (the main reason being the spreadsheet was intended for personal use only and i'm not an enchaner). It's Something i'll try to get in a later version. In the mean time, the best way to test these out is to edit the "base stats" section accordingly.
As for +weapon damage, this is not included in the model. I'm thinking of doing so, so that i can include sharpening stones etc, but unfortunatelt time is limited for me over the next couple of weeks.
This may not all be accurate (but its the best I could find). These numbers assume a perfect 50% proc rate for JoW to make the math easier. These numbers assume a 100% hit rate to again make the math easier. The rotations used assume a perfect latency of 0 ms. These calculations only include spells and abilities that can proc JoW, even though there may be more in the rotation. Any haste effects, whether passive (+Haste rating) or talented (Flurry) or from item procs (Dragonspine Trophy), are not considered into the calculations. All talents/abilities are patch 2.3 versions.
Note that I really have no idea what the spell rotation is for actual Boomkin druids, I just looked up what I would think would be a decent rotation. If anyone can find some real information regarding their spells it would be most appreciated. All I have left to do is Warlocks now (which I am not looking forward to doing).
I think for many fights it's not a discussion about JoW being good or not, it's about how useful is helping keeping it up rather than having a holy pally stop healing every <20s to do it not to mention stay in melee range.
The only time the effectiveness of JoW will actually matter for the effectiveness of a ret pally is on fights where keeping JoW up is completely not doable for a holy paladin (for example when being in melee will result with stuns/manaburns/whatever more than just damage that the ret pally would've taken anyway and is probably worth taking for keeping JoW up).
With 2.3's change to improved crusader it's even more of a "easier keeping judgements up" over "bringing judgements to the raid", as the ret pally's main "perk" of 3% raid-wide crit can be applied by any paladin that has 8 spare points (which can be easily done with the standard 42 in holy while even keeping kings). Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
The only time the effectiveness of JoW will actually matter for the effectiveness of a ret pally is on fights where keeping JoW up is completely not doable for a holy paladin (for example when being in melee will result with stuns/manaburns/whatever more than just damage that the ret pally would've taken anyway and is probably worth taking for keeping JoW up).
As a holy pally I can say that keeping any judgement up on a boss is a pain in the ass (for lack of a better term). As a holy pally your job is to heal, and most of the time we're more worried about keeping people alive than keeping a judgement up (which leads to shouts of "why isn't wisdom up?!?!?!" from the casters). Being a holy pally refreshing judgements isn't impossible, but it cuts into your healing a lot, and on most fights in the game the sacrifice isn't worth it. You spend a huge amount of time running in, trying to hit a boss (since you have no melee hit rating its a pain), and finally running out.
Originally Posted by galzohar
With 2.3's change to improved crusader it's even more of a "easier keeping judgements up" over "bringing judgements to the raid", as the ret pally's main "perk" of 3% raid-wide crit can be applied by any paladin that has 8 spare points (which can be easily done with the standard 42 in holy while even keeping kings). Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
The 'death' of ret utility because SC is being moved to be in range of the other specs is unfounded. Yes, there will be some raidbitch holydins who pick it up. But in all honesty most holy pallys go for Imp. Conc Aura (because it really is that good, even in PvE) over anything in the ret tree. Protection pallys are in a much better position to grab it, but their tree is so bloated to begin with there isn't much they can move to put 3 into it. So it still remains a mainly ret talent, just a little higher in the tree.
Originally Posted by panny
Did you factor in Flurry? (Weapon attack speed becomes 2.0).
No, I didn't use any haste effects whatsoever to make the math simpler and for it to apply to more situations. Since flurry is a proc on crit it can have a much different uptime based on each person's crit percentage/luck, and it was just easier to assume it doesn't exist.
Anyone back from the PTR with some heavy raid dps tests from ZA? Curious to see the dmg we can put out now with the threat reduction. I'm hoping its something in the range of Enhance shamans now.
Anyone back from the PTR with some heavy raid dps tests? Curious to see the dmg we can put out now with the threat reduction. I'm hoping its something in the range of Enhance shamans now.
Every test that I have done in remotely competitive raids indicate that we are doing pretty well. Its very hard for Retribution Paladin to find well geared raid without predjudice, as majority of these unfortunately plain ignore us. But best shots I have was some german group who had BT/Hyjal level fury warrior, 2 T5 level rogues and BT/Hyjal level tanks I was competing just fine in DPS with everyone else.
Its just real pain in the ass to find good group where you can go all out.
Why is imp conc aura that good? If it adds to the talented % uninterruption you just get 100% both with and without it, as well as any other healer partied with you. Assuming it does work like that the only class that would benefit from imp conc aura is a partied warlock, but the only situation I see you party with a warlock is when you're using devotion anyway...
Even though from what I heard it's not like that, if it actually multiplies and not adds (in which case you can never get 100%), changing conc aura from 30% to 45% would change you from having 79% uninterruptibility to 82% uninterruptibility, or reduce interrupts from 21% to 18%. 21/18=1.166 and I think getting interrupted 17% more is really not that big of a deal.
From what I've been reading on these forums more often than not they do their best to keep JoW up so it *is* usually the case of letting the pally spend more time healing rather than being the deciding factor if JoW is going to be up there. And for those fights the actual effectiveness of JoW is irrelevent for how good the ret pally is. Then again when you have 3 judgements worth keeping up having a ret pally keep them up with crusader strike saves the time for 3 healers from keeping judgements up, which can be estimated in terms of benefit to healing. However comparing the value of the DPS loss to the value of the healing gained when you bring a ret pally is a very hard thing to do.
Why is imp conc aura that good? If it adds to the talented % uninterruption you just get 100% both with and without it, as well as any other healer partied with you. Assuming it does work like that the only class that would benefit from imp conc aura is a partied warlock, but the only situation I see you party with a warlock is when you're using devotion anyway...
It also decreases Silence/Interrupt duration, allowing the Paladin and his group members to come out of AE silences to get important heals on the tank earlier.
Originally Posted by galzohar
Even though from what I heard it's not like that, if it actually multiplies and not adds (in which case you can never get 100%), changing conc aura from 30% to 45% would change you from having 79% uninterruptibility to 82% uninterruptibility, or reduce interrupts from 21% to 18%. 21/18=1.166 and I think getting interrupted 17% more is really not that big of a deal.
Concentration Aura is additive, not multiplicative. The untalented aura plus Spiritual Focus is enough to avoid all spell knockbacks.
Argh regearing is really sucking, I am trying to get at least full blues before 2.3 hits. Almost all the ret gear is from instances and noone will really take a ret paladin to any instance. I picked up Hammer of Naaru, my t4 helm, and some other random gear from before when I was healing. I am trying to get as much gear from quartermasters as possible. My guild muted me for respecing to ret.
I'll answer your post for now, but this thread is about retribution theorycrafting in raids, not the merits of Improved Concentration Aura and Judgement. If you would like to discuss this further please take it to PM's, I'll be happy to argue to your heart's content.
Originally Posted by galzohar
Why is imp conc aura that good? If it adds to the talented % uninterruption you just get 100% both with and without it, as well as any other healer partied with you. Assuming it does work like that the only class that would benefit from imp conc aura is a partied warlock, but the only situation I see you party with a warlock is when you're using devotion anyway...
Because Auras effect your entire party. There are a lot of classes out there who don't get nice talented pushback resistance (Shadow Priests especially come to mind) and that 50% is huge with the amount of AoE damage in the current game. Not to mention the 30% duration reduction of all silence effects on anyone under the effect of Concentration Aura. This is 30% less time you have to spend silenced, and there are a lot of bosses out there where those 2 seconds can make the difference between a kill and a dead tank.
Its also nice for those of us who like to PvP in our off time, since it is the aura of choice there.
Oh and you almost never use Devo in a raid unless you're the Main Tank pally. The extra 900 armor won't save a clothie from anything.
Originally Posted by galzohar
Even though from what I heard it's not like that, if it actually multiplies and not adds (in which case you can never get 100%), changing conc aura from 30% to 45% would change you from having 79% uninterruptibility to 82% uninterruptibility, or reduce interrupts from 21% to 18%. 21/18=1.166 and I think getting interrupted 17% more is really not that big of a deal.
Wrong.
Originally Posted by galzohar
However comparing the value of the DPS loss to the value of the healing gained when you bring a ret pally is a very hard thing to do.
DPS lost? I think we already proved a long long time ago that a ret pally brings more to a raid than a third warlock or rogue (if anyone could find the numbers back in the old thread that would actually be a nice addition to the main post). Regardless, a holy pally can put and keep up any judgement he feels like. However, its not economical or even safe under a lot of circumstances to have a healer out jumping around reapplying a judgement every 18 seconds when you could have someone reapplying it for him every 6 while retaining a competitive level of continuous DPS.
I'm not saying "you have to have a ret pally to get Judgement of Wisdom". You can get this from any pally. But chances are if you have a ret pally in your guild you will see these numbers a lot more often than if you just run with holydins.
Great news for those who had problems with Excel 2003 (or me at least ). Go to Options->Transition and check Transition Formula Entry. Somehow all the formulas start working
Anyone back from the PTR with some heavy raid dps tests from ZA? Curious to see the dmg we can put out now with the threat reduction. I'm hoping its something in the range of Enhance shamans now.
I ran ZA Sunday with a well geared Retrib paladin (S2 glad set, Storm Herald and a lot of plate items from Hyjal/BT). The raid setup wasn't optimal (only 1 paladin which means no blessing of might or king).
We had a good melee group (Def warrior, fury warrio, feral druid, Retribution paladin, and me as an enhancement shaman droping wf all the time).
On most single target encounter, the retribution paladin and me had a very similar dps.
I was going all out (full Shock and stormstrike rotation, trinket whenever up).
The paladin told me he was still holding back, with the lag the tanks couldn't generate as much threat as they Should.
Moreover, the paladin was using jugement of wisdom, being the only paladin in the raid he needed it to be able to keep his mana up.
I think that with a more optimal setup and beter threat from the tank He should be able to outdps me (save for mana problems).
Ret paladins, have any of you considered the use of [Mark of Vindication] (Mark of Vindication - Items - World of Warcraft) for long fights to support your DPS cycle? I realize it would be a downgrade from many active use and epic trinkets available (DST, Bloodlust Brooch, etc) in terms of raw damage gain, but would the mana return on Judgement (and Consecration if you use it in your cycle) combined with Sanctified Judgement practically completely refunding your Seal cost be enough to justify its use?
10/20/07, 2:01 PM
