Were in the same boat, I feel the reitemization of T6 has been done poorly by Blizzard the 3 new pieces will cause me to lose a huge amount of Hit so far in my current gear which is very much like yours. I have 153 Hit when I eat Hit food which is fine but losing [Red Belt of Battle], [Dreadboots of the Legion] will reduce my Hit rating far more then I would like.
I posted this some other places as well to get Paladins take on it but I feel as the new 3 pieces are weak and the reitemization of 213 Spell Damage to 90 Strength was a crude revamp that had zero thought or intelligence behind it.
Current T6 Ret
196 Strength
230 Stam
127 Int
213 Healing/Damage
130 Melee Crit
21 Melee Hit
9 Mana Regen
Revamped T6
286 Strength
230 Stam
127 Int
0 Healing/Damage
130 Melee Crit
21 hit
9 Mana Regen
I'm sorry but i don't see the problem with the lack of hit on the lightbringer gear. In all honestly i thought the dps gear available for paladins previously had too much hit thrown around.
On the 8 pieces of lightbringer there are 6 yellow slots. If you stick 6 x +10 hit in these, then this + precision + the 21 hit from Lightbringer takes you past the hit cap. Any non armor pieces you get with +hit then replace the gems with +str or something.
Well if you absolutely wanted to spec out of Precision you might find yourself a little lower. However, at least for the moment these new T6 pieces are clearly best in slot, even minus the hit rating, which can easily be made up for in other places (like bellator said).
I'm sorry but i don't see the problem with the lack of hit on the lightbringer gear. In all honestly i thought the dps gear available for paladins previously had too much hit thrown around.
On the 8 pieces of lightbringer there are 6 yellow slots. If you stick 6 x +10 hit in these, then this + precision + the 21 hit from Lightbringer takes you past the hit cap. Any non armor pieces you get with +hit then replace the gems with +str or something.
Yes and No you aren't accounting for the Meta if you socket full Hit, most Raiding Paladins don't have any in protection as the points are wasted Hit is possible from other sources. Some of the most common builds are 10/0/51 in sme variation, Yes I have see the Paladins that throw 8 into prot but they are few and far between.
I guess more the point being made is they could have pumped the Hit/Crit/ArP perferred they itemized with a shared stat between factions instead of dumping all 213 itemization points into strength only. There are other stats Horde and Alliance share that they could have itemized into Strength purely for a 213 to 90 conversion was bad IMO. the new pieces with Haste is as bad, they could have itemized those with a shared stat as well.
Maybe I should have said, Re-socketing all Hit out of my current all Strength to pickup 3 new pieces of gear itemized for my Spec doesn't actually help me it leaves me where I am with a matching set of gear. I would have perferred seeing a useful itemization rather then somewhat of the same result re-socketing Spinels.
I'm sorry but i don't see the problem with the lack of hit on the lightbringer gear. In all honestly i thought the dps gear available for paladins previously had too much hit thrown around.
On the 8 pieces of lightbringer there are 6 yellow slots. If you stick 6 x +10 hit in these, then this + precision + the 21 hit from Lightbringer takes you past the hit cap. Any non armor pieces you get with +hit then replace the gems with +str or something.
I think Bellator is right. The hitrating on my current gear, is way too much. I for myself wouldn't even go as far as putting 10 hit gems into the sockets of the revamped Tier 6 gear. There are plenty of items, that you can use, if you have access to the T6. You have to get 74 hitrating from items. If you want to go 8/8 Tier 6 then those 74 hitrating have to be on you neck, back, rings and trinkets.
Can you explain why 10/0/51 is so popular and 8 in Prot is unpopular?
The reason i ask is that in pve terms, if you are not the raid's BoM'er you can take all the pve talents for 44 points in ret, put 9 in holy and 8 in Prot. The 3% hit you gain through talents means you dont have to get this through gear allowing your gear to have more str/crit instead. By not takin precision, the gain to dps you would get through other talents is minimal and means you have to waste gear allocation points to make up this 3% hit.
Thus I can't see whya pve paladin would want to avoid precision
Can you explain why 10/0/51 is so popular and 8 in Prot is unpopular?
The reason i ask is that in pve terms, if you are not the raid's BoM'er you can take all the pve talents for 44 points in ret, put 9 in holy and 8 in Prot. The 3% hit you gain through talents means you dont have to get this through gear allowing your gear to have more str/crit instead. By not takin precision, the gain to dps you would get through other talents is minimal and means you have to waste gear allocation points to make up this 3% hit.
I guess this all gets back to raid makeup and other Paladin specs more then anything. I'm not really saying you or anyone else is wrong here I'm simply saying 213 itemization points for pure strength was a bad option and could have been done better and the 3 new pieces could have been itemized better as well. I was using Hit as a main example because I see a lot of people that don't have enough Hit, Maybe I should have said ArP or Expertise instead of Hit but the main point of the post is and always will be.
213 ITemization points spread out properly to assist the class could have been done differently creating overall better results. The addition of 90 Strength will be nice yes don't get me wrong but the addition of smaller amounts of other instead of paying a 2:1 ratio would have been overall better. I don't see a lot of classes that experience the same gear flaws. Maybe I'm just blind and haven't actually looked at all the other gear.
Expertise would have been nice yes, but otherwise Strength is arguably the best way to spend itemization points across the board. ArP is less valuable than Strength per item point. We've traditionally complained that we had to focus on too many stats, so putting a lot of itemization points into strength isn't a bad thing per se.
Can you explain why 10/0/51 is so popular and 8 in Prot is unpopular?
The reason i ask is that in pve terms, if you are not the raid's BoM'er you can take all the pve talents for 44 points in ret, put 9 in holy and 8 in Prot. The 3% hit you gain through talents means you dont have to get this through gear allowing your gear to have more str/crit instead. By not takin precision, the gain to dps you would get through other talents is minimal and means you have to waste gear allocation points to make up this 3% hit.
Thus I can't see whya pve paladin would want to avoid precision
Well I wasn't commenting on my own behalf I was more so commenting on the fact that I hear and see a lot of Paladins lacking hit. I personally find prot talents useless because they don't bring me anything. I can create a larger sustained DPS sticking with a 10/051 build. I personally don't lack the Hit I have plenty and don't feel the 3% Hit for me is useful at all.
The new 3 PC set has Haste, I'm more so defending that Blizzard either forgot Alliance does not have SoB and does not greatly benefit from haste. By saying Hit would have been a better itemization or ArP or even Expertise. Really just saying Blizzard is bad at itemization, Personally I think people should spec to thier best possible DPS and some need prot talents others don't.
Well I wasn't commenting on my own behalf I was more so commenting on the fact that I hear and see a lot of Paladins lacking hit. I personally find prot talents useless because they don't bring me anything. I can create a larger sustained DPS sticking with a 10/051 build. I personally don't lack the Hit I have plenty and don't feel the 3% Hit for me is useful at all.
The new 3 PC set has Haste, I'm more so defending that Blizzard either forgot Alliance does not have SoB and does not greatly benefit from haste. By saying Hit would have been a better itemization or ArP or even Expertise. Really just saying Blizzard is bad at itemization, Personally I think people should spec to thier best possible DPS and some need prot talents others don't.
The 8 prot talent brings you 3% hit. I don't really see why this is being debated. If you skip the 8 points there, what do you gain that increases your DPS? 26AP on BoM and Divine Intellect?
Last edited by DarKNecross : 02/10/08 at 4:17 PM.
I heard Sigurd scored an infinity on Rock Band and ascended to heaven.
Expertise would have been nice yes, but otherwise Strength is arguably the best way to spend itemization points across the board. ArP is less valuable than Strength per item point. We've traditionally complained that we had to focus on too many stats, so putting a lot of itemization points into strength isn't a bad thing per se.
Strength was the worst way to go based on a 2:1 Itemization Point Ratio is all I'm saying, We got the short end of the stick because there was very little thought put into what they could change to revamp it. 230 Spell Damage for 90 Strength any way you look at it is a rip off. The higher the stat value gets based on ilevel the more itemization points it costs to increase it this is what Blizzard proved to us with S3 gear when they dumped all ArP for Strength only. They just did the same thing with Spell Damage to Strength. I personally feel ripped off because we shouldn't have gotten the same treatment twice. Guess I need to find that itemization point cost post to see how many strength points actually cost us double but I'm willing to bet some even came close to a 3:1 value.
The prot talent brings you 8% hit. I don't really see why this is being debated. If you skip the 8 points there, what do you gain that increases your DPS? 26AP on BoM and Divine Intellect?
Assuming you meant 3% Hit and again I was simply stating that Blizzard gave us the short end of the stick spending such high point cost in only strength not trying to debate talent points. Used Hit as an example only should have used some other stat or not used an example and just posted raw data showing the cost of itemization points for 1 point of strength to get the point across.
Just logged in, The t4 t5 vendor is basically more of the same. Some of the damage and healing replaced with hit, some with more strength and some with more crit.
For instance, T4 leggings are now:
53 Str
34 Stam
24 Int
24 Agil
23 hit rating.
Hope they give us alliance folk Seal of Blood with the amount of haste rating on the newer plate.
I'm quite suprised they didn't replace AGI with crit rating. Why stop in the middle with adjusting things?
If you skip the 8 points there, what do you gain that increases your DPS? 26AP on BoM and Divine Intellect?
An extra 26 AP (it is 44 extra with 5 points) spread over a 25 man raid adds up to more raid dps than having less hit on your gear.
Also, hit rating in current plate gear is not hard to reach the cap, however this new stuff doesn't have much hit on it.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Going back to the 2.4 discussion, both the Leatherworking and Blacksmithing BoP chests seem to be 'best in slot'. They're way above Lightbringer and at par or slightly above Warharness of Reckless Fury(for my gear setup), which is the Sunwell plate dps chest. This almost forces me to drop Enchanting to pick up LWing/BSing. If anyone else is also contemplating this, what's the better profession to pick? LWing has drums while it's more than likely that we'll see new Blacksmithing weapons at some point.
Well, as a blood elf I can't complain. I have to say I kind of feel bad... when I was going ret at first I kind of idolized you (you have a fanboy!). But after this, I'm kind of questioning Blizzard's recent changes. While they certainly kick ass for me, the alliance paladins are getting thoroughly screwed.
/pat
Well, if there was a "small" difference between alliance and horde paladins so far (which was arguably possible to balance through higher consecration on alliance side with T6), with the new gear stacking tons of haste that gap is going to become pretty huge.
Yea it doesn't feel great to be screwed over like this, unless they give us SoB or change how SoC works to be the overall best seal with haste synergy (base it off the unhasted-base speed for example), this is going to be a very major problem, I can already see the whine threads popping up when the "majority of the public" realizes what's going on.
Originally Posted by Handled
most Raiding Paladins don't have any in protection as the points are wasted Hit is possible from other sources. Some of the most common builds are 10/0/51 in sme variation, Yes I have see the Paladins that throw 8 into prot but they are few and far between.
I'm very sure, as others have stated, that it's the exact opposite here. Those 8 points you throw into prot have no place anywhere else to increase your DPS. Div Int is like taking 10% more of nothing = nothing.
On the flipside, if you don't take precision, you're losing the equivalent itemvalue of 3% hit which you could have gotten in STR/CRIT etc.
Previous math I did (dunno you'll have to flip back) indicated 3% hit is roughly equivalent to 120 AP in stat points = same as going unflasked vs everyone with a flask.
Originally Posted by Handled
Guess I need to find that itemization point cost post to see how many strength points actually cost us double but I'm willing to bet some even came close to a 3:1 value.
As said previously, they used a static 2.35 spelldamage per 1 str point across the board for all T6 items. It's a nice increase in DPS for Belf paladins regardless of rotation, it's a very minimal increase for alliance paladins not using consecration/exorcism and a slight decrease for paladins using consecration and/or exorcism in their rotations.
I agree with your other point however, if they had spread the conversion around (spelldamage -> some str, some hit, some crit) we would have gained more.
An extra 26 AP (it is 44 extra with 5 points) spread over a 25 man raid adds up to more raid dps than having less hit on your gear.
Also, hit rating in current plate gear is not hard to reach the cap, however this new stuff doesn't have much hit on it.
If you're buffing the raid with Blessing of Might, you've got some logistical problems. The Ret Paladin is best used on either Light, Salv, or a combination thereof. Might should be left to the person who is already doing Wisdom.
I heard Sigurd scored an infinity on Rock Band and ascended to heaven.
If you're buffing the raid with Blessing of Might, you've got some logistical problems. The Ret Paladin is best used on either Light, Salv, or a combination thereof. Might should be left to the person who is already doing Wisdom.
This is probably the most wrong thing I've ever read.
Before I start jumping to conclusions, can someone confirm that we're going to be sharing the "T7" dps plate which is loaded with haste/armpen with warriors?
Using bellator's latest spreadsheet (great work! ), wearing pre-2.4 maxed items, there's a roughly a 50 DPS difference between using SoC/SoB without using consecration.
Using "t7" warrior plate, there's a 100+ DPS difference between SoC/SoB, due to the synergy with haste.
Also in both cases, we gain up to 30% less from ArmorPen than warriors.
One more question that needs to be answered: Mana pool? Are they expecting us to run around with 4k mana buffed in full "t7" gear?
This is probably the most wrong thing I've ever read.
Whereas your post is filled with discussion and helpful information.
There are 4 Blessings in a raid, as we all know.
Let's assume we have 4 Paladins in a raid.
Most builds won't have Kings, so that limits the number to 3.
Might and Wisdom are best done in tandem, since it only makes sense seeing as only 3 classes use both Might and Wisdom. You'd want the person with Improved Blessing of Wisdom to take this assignment. Of course, in an optimal raid, your Holy paladin would be spec'ed 42/11/8 having Improved BoM, Improved BoW, and BoK.
The next Paladin would do a blanket BoSalv, giving Hunters the buff the Paladin doing BoM/BoW didn't give them.
Lastly, one Paladin would do Blessing of Light, giving the Enhancement Shaman and Retribution Paladin the buff they didn't receive from the Might/Wisdom Paladin.
Since a Retribution Paladin doesn't have BoK or Improved BoW, he'd most likely be doing Salvation or Light. If he's doing Salvation, he would only be giving Blessing of Might to the Hunters, which in most raids is going to be 1-3 players.
If he's doing Light, he'll be giving himself and the Enhancement Shaman BoM. Either way, I don't see 26AP being applied to the entire raid, as it was put.
I heard Sigurd scored an infinity on Rock Band and ascended to heaven.
02/10/08, 12:33 PM
), wearing pre-2.4 maxed items, there's a roughly a 50 DPS difference between using SoC/SoB without using consecration.
