Nhul is right that the spreadsheets do show perfect rotations and DPS, but unless someone is terribly undergeared or is shit terrible at watching their cooldowns the differences aren't that much. We would need to see a WWS. That being said even by mathematics it seems very unlikely from any experience I've had that a rogue would get more out of windfury than someone using a 2-handed weapon.
Swapping out the feral druid for Schad adds +222 DPS to Schad, +26 DPS to rogues, +24 to the MS warrior, +21 DPS to the Shaman. So we have a total increase of 319 DPS. Now we remove the feral druid's buffs from the group (-246 DPS) as well as the buffs the druid recieves from the group (-189 DPS) and come up with a decrease of 435 DPS.
And then we add the dps increase for the group that just received a feral druid... tying off loose ends in formulas is a good thing to do I hear.
As the ppl in question have 'left' this discussion, I'll approach those who are possibly in the same predicament. Give your retadin a chance. Understand that melee dps is a newish thing to most paladins and their gear might not be up to scratch. A retadin will always benefit the most from an enhancement shaman due to the pure synergy of talents (+10% str) and gear usage (sloooow 2h weapons and lots of AP). Also, you will be very surprised to see how well paladin dps increases with new gear.. kara gear -> T5 is a huge leap and going to T6 is an extremely high gap as well.
Bear in mind that dps meters often hide the obvious if not looked at properly. A retadin will be low on a TK run... Alar is sitting on your hands for 5mins almost... Solarian is full of AOE goodness for casters to blow the rest of dps away and solarian is a threat capped fight where paladins have no threat reducing ability like invis.. vanish.. FD..
In response to Ret + Prot Paladin... there is no such thing as too much threat.. only not enough dps. This is as simple as "If you produce more threat.. your dps can start dps earlier and can push more with cooldowns/trinks". I know several dps (rogues, mages, locks, etc) who can always be on the heels tank if they want to, giving these ppl more leeway will simply allow more dps. Try a prot warr + prot pally + ret + enh shaman for a time and see how much that increases your raid overall dps.
looks like im a realy bad retadin, looked through all of zurns wws, and when it comes to teron he seems to be always above 1.7k dps Im barley able to reach 1.6k dps, only when im really lucky
I believe theres an error in bellators spreadsheet.
When i select a weapon with sockets (Hammer of Naaru in my case, which is also mispelled) the gem bonus goes to the wrong stat.
For example, if i toss in a +8str gem, the +8 bonus goes into AP. If i put a +8hit gem, the bonus goes into Crit.
Infact, it seems like it just goes to the next cell. I fixed this in my spreadsheet, but it gets kinda tedius to do each time a new one is released.
Also, i mentioned a couple of pages back that (as far as i know) in foreign versions of Office 2007, the macro buttons doesn't work. When you click, for example the "Show Details" button you get the following error message:
Run-time error: '1004': Method 'Range' of object '_Global' failed.
Pressing the debug button shows me this line:
Range(Names("MyGems")).EntireRow.Hidden = True
Replacing it with:
Range("MyGems").EntireRow.Hidden = True
fixes this error and the spreadsheet buttons works fine. I dont know if this fix applies to other versions of Office.
Maybe a i missed it, but which source did you use to get the +/- data for the different dps classes rogue/warrior/druid. The reason i ask is that there are lots of underlying assumptions that are used in the different model which if not standardised could make cross comparison of data invalid.
As an example the paladin dps sheet i maintain assumes boss base armor value of 7700 (the highest boss armor value in BT/MH). If the other models dont use this but for example use the lowest boss armor value in BT/MH or base their mitigation data on something else then you could see swings of upto 40% mitigation between different sources.
The differences in the sheets jumped out at me based on the + figures you quoted for leader of the pack. LotP's benefit on a party member is based primarily on two factors. The party members base dps with 0 crit and the party member's current crit rate. Whilst a paladin will have less base dps they will also tend to have a lower crit rate when compared with the other members especially rogues. The benefit i'm seeing for LotP on paladins in my model compared to the numbers you posted seems significantly lower. Which leads me to belive that the paladin dps model is being a little harser on dps than the other models.
Secondly, when calculating the +/- of different buffs on different classes. Did you do these all individually. Again the reason being that all these buffs we are talking do have interactive effects. Individually Windfury and Battleshout could give a 50dps gain each whilst combined you get a 115dps increase.
I'd be a bit cautious of any conclusions drawn if both these factors werent taken into consideration.
I think one of the issues that hasn't been directly addressed is that Schad might not be optimizing his own performance. As has been previously stated though, we'd need a WWS to really see what's going on.
Someone god a Shard of Contempt in my guild and ran a test of it, fastest proc he got was 45 seconds.... so we can assume its a 45 second CD... that puts it at around 102 AP static for something like the spreadsheet + 44 Expertise, making it EASILY one of the best trinkets in the game...
The new trinkets are all ridiculously good for PvP, which tells me that they could be nerfed before being released on live servers. Dodge and parry become much greater factor when you're beating on another melee class, and slap on the additional AP bonus... wow.
I think one of the issues that hasn't been directly addressed is that Schad might not be optimizing his own performance. As has been previously stated though, we'd need a WWS to really see what's going on.
this was my thought exactly, i think we all got a little defensive because past experience has taught us that most players are biased against retribution. But one thing we aren't considering is Not all ret pallys can perform as well as the guys that have been doing it for years. Schad Should be working to improve his situation both in rotation used and in gearing/gemming. We should be helping schad EARN his spot rather than accosting the Rogue. (who has been WAY more open minded than many Rogue RLs i have met.) This board is about Constructive discussion on the theorycraft of Paladin DPS. We have a paladin who has come to us and Asked us to help him improve, this should be the primary purpose of the criticism provided.
That being said, I agree that we would need a WWS, it would help those who are trying to help, have a better understanding of where the raid is at, and where to improve.
this was my thought exactly, i think we all got a little defensive because past experience has taught us that most players are biased against retribution. But one thing we aren't considering is Not all ret pallys can perform as well as the guys that have been doing it for years. Schad Should be working to improve his situation both in rotation used and in gearing/gemming. We should be helping schad EARN his spot rather than accosting the Rogue. (who has been WAY more open minded than many Rogue RLs i have met.) This board is about Constructive discussion on the theorycraft of Paladin DPS. We have a paladin who has come to us and Asked us to help him improve, this should be the primary purpose of the criticism provided.
That being said, I agree that we would need a WWS, it would help those who are trying to help, have a better understanding of where the raid is at, and where to improve.
I appreciate the PM's and advice and am working on it. I got s3 helm last night, as well as my Lionheart Executioner. Up until a week ago i was dirt poor (never more than 100g), so I grinded out a bunch of stuff and now have 1.4k gold so can afford to gem properly. But also, this was never (or shouldn't have been) a me vs. a rogue or whatever thing. In most of the stuff I've read here, I concluded that for the most part (not all the time), that IF there is a ret pally in the raid, the best place for them (and the raid) is in the melee group with WF. A 'general' statemennt with most things being equal. Obviously not for all fights (I'm much better suited to the tank group with the prot pally for VR for instance), and not all raid makeups. But the replies I always got from some in the guild were basically the opposite viewpoint. Thats all I was trying to resolve - given equally geared/skilled raid members, where is the best place for a ret pally in the group makeups. I don't care about personal meter position. But when after every raid the meters get posted and I have to hear about my crappy DPS when I was stuck in an off group with no totems or anything, its annoying. So then when I say that I didn't have WF, i get called a "whiny bitch" or something, so its really lose-lose. I've been top 5 on fights (Fathom Lord the other day for example or Void Reaver) and I've been 10/11/12.
Any specific WWS reports (or specific fights) that would be most helpful to look at? I'll see what we have, or be sure to create them over the next week or two or raiding. We are just recently 5/6 ssc and just VR in TK (tried Al'ar a few times the other day but it was near the end of the night and ppl had to log).
That being said even by mathematics it seems very unlikely from any experience I've had that a rogue would get more out of windfury than someone using a 2-handed weapon.
Then again, it was Warrior against Retpal, not Rogue! Well, now with the "you're in T5 so your maths are flawed" posts, I have kind of an hard time to see things through. Thanks Bellator for leads in your post, it might explain the difference.
Edit: That's.... quite a strange WWS. Synastar - WWS
To say the very least :o
Was Blizzard intending to give us threat reduction, yet due to some extraordinarily incomprehensible reason decided it's best to not reveal it/patch it in until the very last second of PTR 2.3?
or
Did the overwhelming, crushing mass of forum posts on the Blizzard forums complaining about threat reduction when it wasn't included in the first bit cause someone at Blizzard HQ to go "hold the phone, the shit has hit the fan, we have to do something" and mobilize some changes?
...
I believe they're playing it safe.
For 2.3:
"Okay, we're going to boost Ret paladin DPS a bit so that raids will see more of a benefit of having 1, but let's not over-do it, or we might make them too desirable"
<insert widespread paladin protest on lack of threat reduction>
"Okay, judging by community feedback, they won't be happy with 2.3 if it doesn't have threat reduction. One more buff for this patch"
I see the same strategy going on with the Spell damage -> Str thing. They're making small incremental changes (S3 change in 2.3, CS change in 2.3.3, small changes on 2.4 PTR), and ignore the negative side effects because the community generally doesn't care. On the upside, this might mean they have more time to redesign thoroughly.
looks like im a realy bad retadin, looked through all of zurns wws, and when it comes to teron he seems to be always above 1.7k dps Im barley able to reach 1.6k dps, only when im really lucky
edit: gz toaster !
I'm a blood elf. Seal of Blood is more DPS than Seal of Command, so you shouldn't feel bad at all.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
I just wanted to check over my DPS. I am currently using Worldbreaker (I hate you Zul'Jin). Here is my Armory... http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...lrogg&n=Renaud (I'll click off buffs then log out to try to get rid of all the raid buffage on armory for easier comparisons.)
The SSC Morogrim WWS's are before I got my T3 Blacksmithing Chest (I was using the ZA ArmorPen chest).
And VR from last night (No WF. They take our WF and give the Enhance shaman to the Tank group, so we don't kill ourselves I guess) 1024 DPS (But I spammed Concecrate Max Rank, which I typically do not do, obviously)
Any recommendations? I have few gear upgrades avail at our current level, we are skill working on Vashj and KT (Just started on them in the past couple of weeks, and only 1 or 2 nights per week). All items (Pre-Vashj/KT) are easily attained.
Please point out anything that can be done to increase my DPS significantly (or even slightly). I am running Gruuls for our guild on offnights, trying to get a few of us DST's (I couldn't point on it back then because I was effin Holy). Zul'Jin refuses to drop my Trinket or Sword as well. Anything else?
I am one of the Enhance Shamans from Cessation that Schad usually is in group with.
I'm looking through this WWS and I see Schad as healing during the fight. It looks like he healed himself for over 30k during the course of the VR death.
Some of that can be attributed to JoL, but the average heal is >500, so I'm assuming he was healing himself with Holy Light. I only see one healer getting gibbed, so was there some reason he was healing mid-fight? Unless there is a huge issue, you should never be healing in a raid (emergency LoH maybe, but thats a different issue). It wastes mana, resets your swing timer, and in all honesty does almost nothing. If it was a threat-cap issue that changes things, but I can't tell from the WWS.
Other than that, he's clearly not pushing his cooldowns closely enough. In an 8 minute fight you can get an ideal 80 Crusader Strikes and 60 Judgement spells. Schad only had 50 Crusader Strikes and 34 Judgements. In addition, he lost nearly 56 autoattacks for some reason or another. I am assuming this is a result of the heals he was throwing out. If you watch your cooldowns more closely (make sure CS is always on CD) your DPS will increase quite a lot.
Again though, VR isn't a terribly wonderful fight to use because of the threat issues.
I'll peruse the report more later to see if there is anything else I can offer, but for now I must get to work.
EDIT: this is all coming from the VR death report, I'm ignoring everything else.
I'm looking through this WWS and I see Schad as healing during the fight. It looks like he healed himself for over 30k during the course of the VR death.I'll peruse the report more later to see if there is anything else I can offer, but for now I must get to work.
EDIT: this is all coming from the VR death report, I'm ignoring everything else.
Work? What's that :-)
But you're right, there were a few times I was dangerously low and backed off to heal myself. Figured better to do that than to watch the fight from the ground.
Here's another WWS WWS Loading... where I think I did pretty well on the Fathom Lord death.
I'm a blood elf. Seal of Blood is more DPS than Seal of Command, so you shouldn't feel bad at all.
Not to mention you have nearly every buff possible for Teron. Imp Expose Armor (over Sunder), CoR, Faerie Fire, Enhancement Shaman twisting GoA, Armrs warrior, Imp Battle Shout (Solarian trinket?), Feral druid, 1-3x Drums, Expose Weakness hunter, etc. Not to mention a 2:15 kill, which essentially makes Bloodlust worth 4.5x as much as it would on a 10 minute fight, and probably 1.5 or 2x as powerful as Grimsch's.
Just a comment on the Ret pally group buffs situation, from an outsiders perspective..
-I'll agree with Zurm, Ret Pallies replace rogues. Fitting in a ret pally without dropping a rogue is generally going to be difficult
-Ret pallies, like Arms warriors, require Windfury. Plain and simple, WF is required.
Generally our raids are either 1 rogue (myself) + Zurm (and warrior / enhance / feral). When our other rogue is able to make the raid, we'll either drop the Feral for him, or make 2 physical dps groups - 1 rogue in each. The only other viable alternative I can think of is putting the Ret pally in a group with the MT (warrior), Arms warrior, and a shaman of some sort.
He probably did some BG's before logging. I know he has the T6-looking helm off of Illidari Council, the neck from Supremus, and the socketed boots off RoS. So that's his PvP gear in armory atm. I'm not sure what trinkets he uses in PvE.
He's almost always in a group with 2 rogues, 1 dps warrior, 1 resto shaman for WF (We have 0 raiding enh shamans).
He's a smart player, and a good leader, but we just can't seem to find a way to get his DPS to be competitive, and we're getting to a point where there are concerns that he's becoming a liability as ret. But ret is what he wants to do, and I'd like to try and see if there's something we can do to help him out.
He probably did some BG's before logging. I know he has the T6-looking helm off of Illidari Council, the neck from Supremus, and the socketed boots off RoS. So that's his PvP gear in armory atm. I'm not sure what trinkets he uses in PvE.
He's almost always in a group with 2 rogues, 1 dps warrior, 1 resto shaman for WF (We have 0 raiding enh shamans).
He's a smart player, and a good leader, but we just can't seem to find a way to get his DPS to be competitive, and we're getting to a point where there are concerns that he's becoming a liability as ret. But ret is what he wants to do, and I'd like to try and see if there's something we can do to help him out.
Let's take a look at the Teron Gorefiend parse:
Crusader Strike should be every 6 seconds, though slight delays of up to a second are normal due to latency. He's hitting it every 7.7 seconds. Room for improvement.
Judgement of Command should be every 9 seconds, with the same caveats as above. It's happening every 10.5 seconds, which is not actually that bad since in fights with the undead you ought to prioritize Exorcism over Judgement, too.
His Seal of Command uptime is poor. There are a few points in the log where he'll use Judgement of Command, there will be a melee swing, then he'll reapply his Seal. That's an enormous amount of damage lost. Have him make a macro like this:
#show Judgement
/cast Judgement
/cast Seal of Command
Use that whenever you feel like using Judgement and it will automatically reapply your Seal, with zero downtime or latency between the cast and the reapplication. The only thing you have to keep in mind is that you should never use the macro when Crusader Strike has 1.5 seconds or less left on its cooldown; it would be better to Judge after in that case.
Where's Judgement of Wisdom? If that were active he could spam Consecration the entire fight. That's thousands of DPS lost. Get one of the other Paladins to put it up for him.
Never, ever use Hammer of Wrath. Its damage pales in comparison to a melee swing, and it resets your swing timer. Bad news all around.
Here's an example of our Teron Gorefiend last week:
I don't claim to be perfect, but this should give you a good idea of where somebody in our level of gear can be performing. For example, my Crusader Strike are every 6.7 seconds, Judges are every 11 seconds (which isn't super great), I spam Consecration and Exorcism when on cooldown an when they won't interfere with Crusader Strike, I have Judgement of Wisdom up (look at those mana returns!), and I don't use Hammer of Wrath. This wasn't one of my better weeks, either, but I still pulled out 1488 DPS.
I've taken a look at Frump's gear from time to time and it looks pretty good. his white hits just seem abnormally low looking at wws. On Teron for example, my average white hit was 1600 a couple weeks ago, his is 1100. Are all armor Debuffs up? Do you have an idea of what his buffed ap is at? i hover around 3000 ap when all is said and done, battleshout, strength of earth, full trinket stack.
Also notice he has a full 10% miss. how......? maybe expect ~5% from dodge but 10%?! either really unlucky or he's getting parried too because i can only assume he's hit capped with illidari shatterer and dreadboots making up more that half the required hit needed already. PM Sereen in game some time and we can chat as well.
His Seal of Command uptime is poor. There are a few points in the log where he'll use Judgement of Command, there will be a melee swing, then he'll reapply his Seal. That's an enormous amount of damage lost. Have him make a macro like this:
#show Judgement
/cast Judgement
/cast Seal of Command
Considering it's all about SoC uptime, we can agree that such a macro for SoB would mean no dps gain, right? (I'll try it someday, but I'm short on free time these days).
5. Never, ever use Hammer of Wrath. Its damage pales in comparison to a melee swing, and it resets your swing timer. Bad news all around.
I might be wrong, but I disagree here. If you use a swing timer (like arms warriors do it for Slam) the swing timer reset wouldn't be an issue (then again, it's not always that easy to do).
02/14/08, 1:51 AM
