So still the devo pally of the MT won't lose anything speccing out of imp conc aura for the 3% raid crit. And you generally run with a pally in the MT group, don't you? In such case the effectiveness of concentration aura isn't even relevant.
The bottom line is that in the fights where the holy (and prot...) pallies can keep the judgements up, the only DPS the ret pally brings to the raid above his own is the 2% aura to his party... I had yet to see the theorycraft that shows that 2% extra damage to party makes up for the lack of ret pally DPS. Still waiting to see a high-quality spreadsheet (of a level such as leulier's warlock sheet) to know for sure. Anyway the point is that in those fights the benefit of having the ret pally is having 2-3 healers spending more time healing and less time in melee range.
Granted there are fights where not having a ret pally simply means no judgements, and in those fights you can completely ignore my comments, but those fights are far from being all fights and afaik not even close to being the majority.
Ret paladins, have any of you considered the use of [Mark of Vindication] (Mark of Vindication - Items - World of Warcraft) for long fights to support your DPS cycle? I realize it would be a downgrade from many active use and epic trinkets available (DST, Bloodlust Brooch, etc) in terms of raw damage gain, but would the mana return on Judgement (and Consecration if you use it in your cycle) combined with Sanctified Judgement practically completely refunding your Seal cost be enough to justify its use?
15% proc rate on 150~ mana, or roughly 23~ mana per spell cast. I know it works off of Judgement and Consecrate, but I don't think it triggers from CS or SoC (typical abilities used by a Ret paladin)
I don't think it will give you much mana for typical Ret ability use. Good trinket for leveling or at L70 if you don't have anything better, but quite replaceable.
Ret paladins, have any of you considered the use of [Mark of Vindication] (Mark of Vindication - Items - World of Warcraft) for long fights to support your DPS cycle? I realize it would be a downgrade from many active use and epic trinkets available (DST, Bloodlust Brooch, etc) in terms of raw damage gain, but would the mana return on Judgement (and Consecration if you use it in your cycle) combined with Sanctified Judgement practically completely refunding your Seal cost be enough to justify its use?
I find it pretty hard to fit Consecrate into my rotation as it is, just by virtue of global cooldowns and not wanting to skip a CS or queuing up SoC before my weapon swing is due. So that would probably lower its effectiveness right there. Unless it's each consecrate tick (which I doubt) it might not be worth it.
Still, interesting find, and definitely a good trinket choice for a Paladin in place like Kara, I think, where there's lots of chances to use Exorcism for extra damage, to balance out the mana cost.
However comparing the value of the DPS loss to the value of the healing gained when you bring a ret pally is a very hard thing to do.
I'm assuming your impression here is because you're either at the start of or not yet in t5 content though. Paladin healing is really... lame at best in t6, most of the time, and it starts to really hurt a bit later at the end of t5.
Switching to a holy/ret/prot dynamic for your three blessings lets you free up healer slots for the more effective PvE healing Druids, Shamans, and Priests.
There's still situations where an Imp. LoH in the raid is useful on the tank (prefiring for Reliquary p3 comes to mind), but most of the time nowadays the only things a holy paladin brings that another healer wouldn't is his LoH and possibly a Devo aura for the tank, but he likely needs a shadowpriest anyway to keep up with the real healers on a tank if he isn't meter farming the raid damage that lifebloom and chain heal should be healing.
The pally/shaman Mark of Vindication has an internal cooldown, making it much less awesome than it initially appears to be.
I thought the same for a long while and then actually noticed how little power gain it yeilded in a WWS.
I don't see anything about the internal cooldown. Can you tell me what the timer on it is? Because, really, if anywhere close to an interval or 8 or 10, it shouldn't affect the numbers that greatly.
I'm assuming your impression here is because you're either at the start of or not yet in t5 content though. Paladin healing is really... lame at best in t6, most of the time, and it starts to really hurt a bit later at the end of t5.
Switching to a holy/ret/prot dynamic for your three blessings lets you free up healer slots for the more effective PvE healing Druids, Shamans, and Priests.
There's still situations where an Imp. LoH in the raid is useful on the tank (prefiring for Reliquary p3 comes to mind), but most of the time nowadays the only things a holy paladin brings that another healer wouldn't is his LoH and possibly a Devo aura for the tank, but he likely needs a shadowpriest anyway to keep up with the real healers on a tank if he isn't meter farming the raid damage that lifebloom and chain heal should be healing.
And this will especially be true in 2.3. I'm still not totally sold on whether a retadin will be worth bring to raids yet, until I see some decent numbers on PTR on test. I'm just a skeptic of everything until I see hard proof. :p
Didnt got the time to test stuff on the PTR yet but im wondering about something.
Does Vindication(the one from the 2.3 build) affect non-players mobs(non-boss)? I know about the story of raw stats, etc... but i need a confirmation on that. If i remember correctly when i was able to log-in 5-10min on the PTR last week, i attacked a mobs with a mana pool and i noticed the mana pool cap was lowered by the Vindication debuff. Didnt had enough time to test if the hp pool cap got lowered too.
Also, IF it work on non-players mobs, are the trash in ZA all immune to this debuff?
Another question totally out of subject is: Do you know the existence of an addons that will keep track of the jugement debuff on my target? Even if the jugement are not from me? Something to filter out and tell me if JoW/JoL/JoTC are still up etc... I know some paladin in my guild interested to find an addon like this.
Didnt got the time to test stuff on the PTR yet but im wondering about something.
Does Vindication(the one from the 2.3 build) affect non-players mobs(non-boss)? I know about the story of raw stats, etc... but i need a confirmation on that. If i remember correctly when i was able to log-in 5-10min on the PTR last week, i attacked a mobs with a mana pool and i noticed the mana pool cap was lowered by the Vindication debuff. Didnt had enough time to test if the hp pool cap got lowered too.
Copied from my post in the paladin tanking thread:
Originally Posted by Fiola
Observation of Vindication on PTR:
Using pitbull to see the exact mana values, Vindicaiton reduced caster mob mana from 3231 to 2916.
That's a difference of 315 mana points, or around 10~%.
Not knowing mob health values, I couldn't really test how much it reduced their HP, but I was able to test if it had any effect.
I attacked a self-healing mob (treants in NE part of Auchindon crater), applied Vindication, allowed the treant to heal to full, and then watched Vindication fade. When Vindication dropped, the mob % hp dropped from 100% to 96% (there might have been a regrowth tick in there, but I was mostly interested in seeing if it affected HP at all). So the % Sta reduction does work, though it won't be 15% of their total HP, obviously.
In other words, Vindication does indeed affect mob stats if the debuff sticks.
Originally Posted by Agonar
Also, IF it work on non-players mobs, are the trash in ZA all immune to this debuff?
From my very, very brief time in ZA, I noticed it proc on some of the humanoid mobs. I noticed because it was showing "IMMUNE" on other mobs (the trolls on bear mounts).
The torch of the damned is still the best of the bunch because crusader strike is unnormalized.
It's actually the best since it's base weapon speed is 3.8, which means it gets the most from Attack Power.
When I was looking at weapons, I noticed Soul Clever actually was about the same as Cataclysm's Edge in terms of DPS. When you factor the new 1% crit racial, however, Cataclysm wins.
I heard Sigurd scored an infinity on Rock Band and ascended to heaven.
Didn't someone say SoC works on a PPM basis which means it has a higher % proc chance per hit with a slower weapon, resulting in a bigger DPS increase on slower weapons?
Of course if it's wrong and SoC is on a fixed % and not PPM, and if CS is also normalized, then weapon speed means nothing except a small difference in judgement of wisdom procs. In this case only average weapon damage and DPS matter.
If SoC is PPM and/or CS is not normalized then slower weapon speed has its own value on top of the value of average damage and DPS, as it would increase SoC proc rate and/or the AP bonus CS gets.
Crusader Strike is normalized. Go buy a weapon from the starting areas (for the really low damage range) to test it.
Hm... I could have sworn they werent' normalized at some point. If they are normalized now, can you tell me for what speed? I'm gonna need to adjust my models.
Didn't someone say SoC works on a PPM basis which means it has a higher % proc chance per hit with a slower weapon, resulting in a bigger DPS increase on slower weapons?
Of course if it's wrong and SoC is on a fixed % and not PPM, and if CS is also normalized, then weapon speed means nothing except a small difference in judgement of wisdom procs. In this case only average weapon damage and DPS matter.
If SoC is PPM and/or CS is not normalized then slower weapon speed has its own value on top of the value of average damage and DPS, as it would increase SoC proc rate and/or the AP bonus CS gets.
Seal of Command is PPM, and has a higher chance to proc with slower weapons.
Seal of Command Proc Chance Each Swing:
Weapon speed * 6.8 / 60
Crusader Strike is Normalized to 3.3.
Weapon speed still matters, because it still determines the benefit we get from AP on our Attacks (White and SoC namely). When AP is getting up into the 4k Raid Buffed range, a 3.8 speed weapon will do a lot more than a 3.5 speed one.
I heard Sigurd scored an infinity on Rock Band and ascended to heaven.
It's actually the best since it's base weapon speed is 3.8, which means it gets the most from Attack Power.
When I was looking at weapons, I noticed Soul Clever actually was about the same as Cataclysm's Edge in terms of DPS. When you factor the new 1% crit racial, however, Cataclysm wins.
Hm... I could have sworn they werent' normalized at some point. If they are normalized now, can you tell me for what speed? I'm gonna need to adjust my models.
If CS was ever un-normalized, it was before 2.0 went live, because that's when I tested it.
My testing showed 3.3 for 2H weapons and 2.4 for 1H weapons , just like warrior/rogues.
Originally Posted by DarKNecross
...
Weapon speed still matters, because it still determines the benefit we get from AP on our Attacks (White and SoC namely). When AP is getting up into the 4k Raid Buffed range, a 3.8 speed weapon will do a lot more than a 3.5 speed one.
It shouldn't matter for white damage, unless you're talking about Windfury.
How does it matter for windfury if I don't have enough haste to trigger the internal cooldown (which I believe to be 3 seconds)
Weapon speed does not affect white damage's benefit from AP. Whatever your weapon speed is, AP gives the same DPS bonus to white damage.
Abilities that grant free attacks (Windfury, SoC) get greater benefits (per hit) from slower weapon speeds. Though now that I think about it, Windfury is a fixed 20% procrate, so it doesn't even matter what weapon speed you have.
Also, the Windfury internal cooldown applies to the weapon enchant only, AFAIK. (Shaman-only issue)
Is CS definately normalised at 3.3 as it currently is not in my model.
With regard weapon speed, slower weapons will still produce slightly higher CS dps, as even if the AP is normalised to 3.3 the original base weapon damage of the slower weapon will still be larger resulting in larger CS hits.
Is CS definately normalised at 3.3 as it currently is not in my model.
With regard weapon speed, slower weapons will still produce slightly higher CS dps, as even if the AP is normalised to 3.3 the original base weapon damage of the slower weapon will still be larger resulting in larger CS hits.
If my CS produces less/equal damage than my autoattack (With 200ish spell damage) its pretty safe to say its normalized.
Is CS definately normalised at 3.3 as it currently is not in my model.
With regard weapon speed, slower weapons will still produce slightly higher CS dps, as even if the AP is normalised to 3.3 the original base weapon damage of the slower weapon will still be larger resulting in larger CS hits.
From my very, very brief time in ZA, I noticed it proc on some of the humanoid mobs. I noticed because it was showing "IMMUNE" on other mobs (the trolls on bear mounts).
Vindication procs on any mob that is CCable. I ZA I would see it go onto the mobs that I could stun, but get immune messages for those that are immune to stun (bears and lookouts).
In all honesty I wasn't paying enough attention to notice any differences in mob health other than what my pretty criticals were doing, so I can't really help on the issue of whether Vindication is the new ret raid utility or not. It still seems like a mainly PvP talent to me though.
10/22/07, 1:14 PM
I'm still not totally sold on whether a retadin will be worth bring to raids yet, until I see some decent numbers on PTR on test. I'm just a skeptic of everything until I see hard proof. :p
