556 procs per 87 minutes... That's only 6.39 PPM... am I missing something here?

He was wearing a lot of haste gear, so gives cred that haste is bad for SoC.

What is it that we're trying to conclude here? That haste makes SoC proc less often somehow? I thought SoC was being tested to determine if it scaled at all with haste.

Regardless of haste I was expecting SoC to come in at 7PPM, am I wrong in this assumption?

Haste is not "bad" per say, just not useful for SoC. (As in it won't reduce the ppm)

Given 108 haste rating and a ppm equal or lower than 7, seems to confirm that haste does not improve the ppm (and that SoC is based off the hasted speed), though longer tests would further reduce the error margin.

a few pages back i was looking for a way to tighten up seals etc..

seems it's pretty simple

#showtooltip Seal of Blood
/cast Judgement
/cast Seal of Blood

the "#showtooltip Seal of Blood" part prevents me from accidentally judging during the GCD and farking of the seal recast elements of the macro. now i have to wait until wednesday to test it in a proper raid situation..

No, I think I just didn't have a sufficient number of hits to eliminate variance in proc rate. If the PPM looked like that after some 10,000 hits that might be cause for concern. I'm no statistician but I feel like for ~1500 hits a .61 variance of the PPM falls within the margin for error. Hopefully those gloves and a ring will drop this next week(no competition so I'll almost definitely get them) and I'll be able to get a sample closer to 5,000 hits at least within a week or so.

My problem with it is that mass whining doesn't necessarily ask for the right things. The S3 + CS change, for example, is a PvE raid DPS buff. For PvP (burst, sustained damage), the changes break even at best, and lost some other side benefits I happen to like. (scaling for SoR, heal & consecrate)


S3 is PvP gear ... the change based on community feedback did not make it any better for PvP.


Maybe it'll be an unquestionable upgrade after 2.4... but then why not make the changes then instead of now? Because the community wanted *some* change now, even if the supporting talent/mechanics changes did not come with it.

Is there a way to prevent you from recasting the seal? Like sometimes I spam judge and it recasts and wastes mana, any way to make sure its not up already before casting?

Blizzard seems to be taking the class changes for ret incredibly slowly. I could be that they've learned from the huge mistakes they made in the giant class review patches of Vanilia (where they would change entire playstyles of classes in a single patch), or it could simply be that they have no idea what direction they want to take the spec in right now. My bets lie on the first option. Its pretty clear from the removal of SD from the sets and the redesign of CS that we are moving towards the removal of spell damage from the ret tree. By introducing the changes gradually they are able to monitor just how much each thing is affected and more informed choices on future decisions from there.

I think you're forgetting the first incarnation of the S3 ret armor (with spell damage, resilliance, and armor penetration) and just how terrible it was. Thanks to community feedback the set was redesigned, and though it may not be "perfect" in your books, it sure is better itemized than almost everything else we get. Generally I find simply that the general public on the WoW boards have no idea what they're talking about, and get a lot of misinformation (look at all the "2.3 sets are a nerf!" or "2.3.2 CS is a nerf!" or "2.4 sets are a nerf!" threads that pop up that are completely incorrect).

On a side note, I just got back from my first Hyjal run as ret. It was quite enjoyable and an excellent break from the monotony of healing.

I use

#showtooltip
/cast Judgement
/castsequence reset=8 Seal of Blood, Judgement
/startattack

I used to have a simple Judge/reseal but i always had the same problem you have, as im a button spammer too.

Appreciated, ill give it a shot next raid.

Hi Veilyn.

I've been using the same as above for a while now, since I don't like extensive macros. Just remember to prioritize CS over it, if both CDs come up at the same time.

Regarding the above SoC discussion. With all the deluge of haste on our gear, plus the storyline about blood knights getting in chummy with A'dal, I would be extremely surprised if the faction seals are not shared out. Seems like Blizzard is prepping all paladins for SoB.

And yes that 2h badge axe is second only to Apollyon for BEs. Although Cataclysm's Edge is only less than 1 dps below it (at least for me).

Did a little spreadsheet twisting for SoB with the new items. As it stands now, the "best" gear in 2.4 for SoB should be the below (bar discovery of new even better items on later Sunwell bosses).

Crown of Anasterian, glyph of ferocity, relentless earthstorm diamond, 10 str
Pauldrons of Berserking, greater inscription, 10 str, 5 str/5 crit
Warharness of Reckless Fury, stats, 10 str, 2x 5 str/5 crit
Lightbringer Bands, brawn, 5 str/7 stam (first blue gem for metagem reqs)
Hard Khorium Battlefists, major strength, 10 str, 5 str/5 crit
Lightbringer Belt, 10 str
Felfury Legplates, nethercobra, 10 str, 5 str/5 crit, 5 str/7 stam (second blue gem for metagem reqs)
Lightbringer Boots, dexterity, 10 str
Cloak of Fiends, greater agility
Choker of Endless Nightmares (Hard Khorium Choker is nice but loses too much +hit, it's the most efficient piece to skip)
Stormrage Signet Ring
Hard Khorium Band
Shard of Contempt
Dragonspine Trophy (or Berserker's Call if you don't have DST - Crusade Card comes in third)
Libram of Avengement
Apolyon, the Soul Render, mongoose

Note that the above puts you at 8.7% hit with Precision. Depending on which theorycraft you believe, you need either 8.6% or 9% for bosses. If the latter, a 10 hit gem in some yellow slot should do the trick.

yeah, i'm a born slacker so only just got round to doing it. this macro is all about slacking :p but what you say about CS priority leads me to the next point.

dthere should be no need to button spam this macro. CS is the priority, button spam that one and make sure you catch your judge/reseal macro before the end of the swing timer (allow for lag). i rarely judge exactly when the judgement timer is exactly up because the swing timer and CS are the priority and Judgement can wait an extra 1-2 seconds if need be.

you shouldn't need to be trying to judge/seal before or one mili second after the CD is gone. judgeing, by comparison to active seal on swing and CS is just not as important. well, my opinion anyway..

The whole point that they're trying to make is that they want to weave CS and Judgements into their damage cycle while maintaing 100% Seal uptime, and its extremely hard to do that, even with a face-mashing macro. "waiting 1-2 seconds" is wasted DPS for a spec trying to maximize it. Its the entire reason Sanc. Judgement exists.

It was a damage nerf, yet there was no community outcry because they didn't think it was one.

If there was a change that involved "CS now only does 90% weapon damage" (but with some other buff that increased overall damage), I bet the overall reaction would have been very different.


It wasn't terrible. For sustained full DPS spam (CS, JoC, SoC), S3v1 flat out did more damage than S3v2 on Leather+ targets. For cloth, S3v2 was *slightly* better BEFORE factoring in ArP (Which would add 1~% physical damage, more on a cloth target).

Then remember that cloth classes tend to have the most avoidance skills (fears, roots), reducing the damage contribution of auto-attack (which is the only thing that makes AP better than +dmg)

For controlled burst, 154~ +dmg will beat 83 Str.


With raid buffs + debuffs, maybe the balance goes back in favor of AP. But I don't get raid buffs/debuffs in 2v2 or 3v3 or BGs. Neither does the typical Ret paladin.



That I still have to explain this shows that perception trumps reality for community feedback. And yes, I know it's all moot now, but I don't like mis-representation of past changes.

The new CS was a damage buff in all respects. You almost never judge Crusader in PvP in any serious arena (because Justice/dispel are so much more important), so the repeated threads of "0% of 219 is 0" and such were complete misinformation. Raiding ret pallys, who actually do get the full effects of JotC, run with enough Attack Power that it was still a buff. This is just one example of a small sect of paladins who want ret to be a caster/SD based tree, which it is not (nor should ever be).

That 154 spell damage you're so in love with increased your JoC damage by a whopping 62. Seal of command was bumped up by 31. I just don't see how any of that can be justified as "more burst".

Assuming you're using a season 3 weapon (386-580 Dmg, 3.60 speed), that 83 Strength (166 AP with a typical 0/20/41 build) you gained will increase your white damage by 43, your SoC by 30, and your CS by 47. How again did the spell damage help do more damage? The only thing the SD does that Strength can't make up for is the (marginal) healing it gives.

I know that many paladins prefer to keep things in all plate; but with the new plate pieces slanted so heavily toward haste, how many of you SoC'ers are looking at the leather items? I added in leather and mail items to Bellator's spreadsheet, and the dps jumps are staggering. [note: I am also a LW for Drums, so I wanted to see if there were any crafting goodies too].

[Bladed Chaos Tunic]
[Leggings of the Immortal Night]
[Gloves of Immortal Dusk] *LW BoE

and [Duplicitous Guise] if you need the hit in your gear setup versus [Crown of Anasterian].

I was talking about the S3 change that got patched by itself, even though it was not a damage buff at the time.


If S3v2 was such a great change, why did they need to revamp CS the next patch? They changed CS so that S3v2 could be considered a damage buff over S3v1.


As for "small sect of paladins who want Ret to be a caster/SD based tree", that's a dishonest characterization. I'm not saying that Ret mechanics should be completely +dmg based so that we're aiming for caster stats and caster items. I'm pointing out that Blizzard's old "solution" for a mana-based melee class (Str + SD) scaled all aspects of the class AND gave roughly the same damage.


If 2.4 fixes the "all aspect" scaling, I'll shut up. Until then, I'd rather have versatility over a marginal DPS gain.


Looking at S3v1 vs. S3v2 alone

Sustained:
-66 damage on JoC (-8.3 DPS)
-1 damage on SoC (small enough difference to be ignored)
+42.7 damage on AA (11.9 DPS)
+39 - 61.6 = -22.47 damage on CS (-3.7 DPS)

Net gain: -0.1 DPS, pre-AC. (-1.7 DPS on 20% DR AC, -3.4 DPS on 40% DR AC)

Burst:
JoC, CS, AA: -46 damage (-62 damage on 20% DR AC, -79 damage on 40% DR AC)
JoC, CS, AA, HoW: -112 damage (-128 damage on 20% DR, -145 damage on 40% DR)

This ignores the S3 non-set item changes and the ArP (+1~% physical damage)


How about S3v2 + 110% CS vs. S3v1 + old CS?

Sustained:
Only difference here is 10% weapon damage. An S3 (T6) weapon would gain 48 damage. S1(T4) weapon gains 43 damage. CS gains 4~ damage from 166 AP (S3v1->S3v2), and 0.33 AP DPS.

Net damage gain? Using a S1/T4 weapon and 1400 AP, CS gains 80~ damage from AP + weapon but loses 61.6 damage SD, for a "whopping" 18 damage gain (3 DPS) pre-AC. If we use the S3 weapon (say 1600 AP), you gained a "whopping" 28 damage per CS (and break even everywhere else) before AC and ArP are factored.

Note that JotC, which "no one would use", adds 94 damage per JoC, which on it's own dwarfs the CS DPS gained by improving your weapon *two tiers*. (10 damage difference between S3 weapon + 200 AP CS vs. S1 weapon CS; gained < 2 DPS)


Burst:
JoC, CS, AA: 123 (S3v2) - 127 (S3v1) = -4 damage
JoC, CS, AA, HoW: 123 - 194 (S3v1) = -71 damage


If you're going to argue that the DPS losses were "so small that it doesn't matter", then the DPS gain from S3v2 is "so small that it doesn't matter" either. So why push in an insignificant change?


When comparing those damage numbers, also remember we're looking at pre-AC values in the majority of cases. I found the loss of +dmg very noticeable when fighting plate-wearers, because +dmg scales AC-ignoring damage much more than AP does.


And yes, the CS change is great for the top-end Ret paladins decked out in warrior gear and using a top-end weapon. Most everyone is below that gear point, and they use JotC occasionally (if it's not a rogue/druid, it does not need JoJ), use a non-T6 level weapon, and lost damage from the changes.

Worrying about if SD was good or not is a moot point, Ret has permanently moved on to greener pastures.

Another buff to Ret is in the leveling field. In the past SotC (even without the 3% crit talent) was a worthwhile buff for leveling. Now that CS is weapon damage, assuming you didn't get the SotC 3% crit talents, it is very sub-par for leveling. Now just get get Warrior quest rewards/greens and you will do fine.

I think, looking at the way blizzard seem to be taking the Retribution Paladin, that and argument as to wether the spell damage removal is a buff or nurf is un-needed.

Look at the changes so far seems to imply they are moving Retribution Paladins away from spell damage reliance so sure your loosing a little damage in the short term but the longer term changes will mostly likely make that a moot point.

As for removing the spell damage from the Season gear, well you can always replace rings/cloaks/neck pieces/boots with other gear to cover the loss if you feel it hurts you that badly.