Retribution DPS Theorycraft - Page 94

bellator · 01/08/08, 6:18 PM

Originally Posted by Kerri

Could you also add enchants for rings... +4 stats helps a tad

. I'd also like to see how it compares to the +2 weapon damage.

Ring enchants have been added and will be in next version. On first glance at the model, as aramul says, stats is showing as superior to striking.

@ Anhedrin,

In terms of your build, all your missing that most pure ret pallies would take is 4 points in beneditcion and 3 in precision. So basically your mana regen will be down a little, and countering the precision loss with gear will have a small effect on str / crit. However when it comes to end games, chances are that you will eventually find yourself hit capped without focusing primarily on it, so long term this won't be as much an issue

Bottom line, you'll notice a slight decrease in dps, but it's not a lot as your talent build is 90% ret.

noth · 01/08/08, 6:24 PM

Originally Posted by Avitus

Spelldamage/Mana:

Do (mainly alliance) paladins use Consecration into their rotations?

Remember with enough mana back/spelldamage it's a really powerfull tool.

I currently use rank 6 consecration 100% uptime and full t6 and it gives me ~+150 sustained DPS.

How are you keeping your mana up doing this? I'm certainly not t6 geared, but I have mana issues consecrating now and again, let alone constantly. Is there a trick I've missed maybe?

Raika · 01/08/08, 6:55 PM

Sorry if this is a stupid question Bellator, but I didn't see the answer anywhere/missed it. What kind of assumptions are made on the spreadsheet as far as the mob you are hitting? I'm just curious, as the output is certainly higher than the dps I actually do with correct gems/enchants/buffs/gear factored in the spreadsheet. I believe I set the correct values in each field :o

fingoldin · 01/08/08, 7:03 PM

So, I never saw any conclusive result on the vindication proc'ing JoW. With 2.3.2 live now, anyone have any early reports on either double procs or side by side comparisons between with and without vindication?

Also, one note which I didn't see mentioned yet for BE paladins, I noticed (and this changed recently, just noticed it when I got back from the holidays) that judgement of blood doesn't seem to proc Dark Moon Card: Crusader's spell damage anymore... of course, with using SoB, JoB, and CS, there really isn't anything other than consecrate, holy wrath, and exorcism which uses spell damage for us anymore.

Raika · 01/08/08, 7:21 PM

Originally Posted by fingoldin

So, I never saw any conclusive result on the vindication proc'ing JoW. With 2.3.2 live now, anyone have any early reports on either double procs or side by side comparisons between with and without vindication?

Also, one note which I didn't see mentioned yet for BE paladins, I noticed (and this changed recently, just noticed it when I got back from the holidays) that judgement of blood doesn't seem to proc Dark Moon Card: Crusader's spell damage anymore... of course, with using SoB, JoB, and CS, there really isn't anything other than consecrate, holy wrath, and exorcism which uses spell damage for us anymore.

As i understand it, Judgement of Blood has a spell damage coefficient, but is not a spell.
Just tested it, and the Judgement registers as a melee attack with Crusade.
Also, it is certainly still effected by the damage, just tested it to make sure - didn't face the mob, right clicked vengeance between judgements, and it was pretty clear that Amani Punisher (Spell damage mace - I forget how to link items here :o) was increasing the damage.

If I had more money to toy around with specs, I test vindication, but it's most likely a yes - I've heard it procs Crusade's spell damage component, so it will *likely* proc JoW.

Avitus · 01/08/08, 10:42 PM

Originally Posted by Anhedrin

Hi, I am fairly new to the ret paladin. I was wondering if someone could answer a quick ret dps question.
I am looking into a semi hybrid dps build. I want this build to allow me be to be a semi effect healer as well as good dps.

The spec you provided has all the necessities for ret DPS I'd say, the main penalty is simply that not having precision will require you to replace some AP/crit on your gear with 47 extra hit rating.

Simplified if you're going to add it through gems, 47 hit rating is equivalent to 47 str added through gem sockets. 47 str = 113.74 AP with kings and div. str. (or 125.114 with unleashed rage on top if you have an enh shamman in your party). Also a loss of 3% spellhit, though that's not too major. If you want a rough estimate, it's like having everyone around you flasked while you're not.

I'd say it really depends on where you will raid. If it's heavy end raiding then I'd say you should specialize, if it's just pvp/low end instances then you should be fine (especially since you don't need 9% hit there in any case).

About the healing part, hmmm I personally would not heal with that spec, at most for soloing, group pvp, never for raiding.

Originally Posted by noth

How are you keeping your mana up doing this? I'm certainly not t6 geared, but I have mana issues consecrating now and again, let alone constantly. Is there a trick I've missed maybe?

Complete 100% consecration uptime only works in many but not all fights.

They can be broken down into:

1. Fights where you take lots of damage and receive tons of mana through Spiritual Attunement
2. Fights where you spend a lot, or some time not DPSing and get breaks to regen.
3. Very short fights

Fights where you should be able to keep 100% consecration uptime:
BT:
Naj'entus (Spiritual Attunenemt)
Supremus (Many breaks for melee)
Shade of Akama (Very short "boss fight")
Teron (Spiritual Attunenemt)
Reliquary of Souls (Spiritual Attunenemt + Short Phases with 100% mana back after)

MH:
Rage Winterchill (Short fight, moderate Spiritual Attunement)
Anetheron (Short fight, moderate Spiritual Attunement)
Archimonde (Occasional breaks, moderate Spritiual Attunement, need to make sure 1 holy paladin always sticks JoW back after melee gets bursted)

Fights where only moderate consecration is possible:
BT:
Bloodboil (Aggro sensitive anyway, long fight where you sometimes take no damage at all, only consecrate/go all out during "Insignificance" debuff)
Mother Shahraz (Gimped gear, mana drain, long fight)
Council (Very long fight)
Illidan(Very long fight, high consecration uptime possible due to many breaks, but not 100%)

MH:
Kaz'rogal (Mana drain, shittiest fight for us :S)
Azgalor (Silence! Though lots of mana due to moderate Spiritual Attunement and occasional breaks)

As you see, essentially most of these fights are long endurance fights anyway and not really dps races.

Unfortunately we haven't been in SSC/TK for over 3 months, so I don't really remember how much I could keep consecration up there and I'd rather not post assumptions/guesses.

Mana mechanics that help (sorted in order of importance):
-JoW: This is the no.1 source of mana for us (even more than potions). You should always make sure it's applied by one of your paladins (you apply JotC) and re-applied if it should drop. Get a mod to monitor it (Demon from wowace) and get your holy paladins to get it too. Nag if it drops. Do not DPS without it. (Estimated on Spreadsheet 156.46mp5 for me, depends on your weaponspeed)

-Spamming super mana pots (or injectors) is a must, every cooldown.
For very short fights like Akama there's a trick where you can use a Fel mana potion at the very start so you can squeeze in a 2nd mana potion before the fight ends, though personally I've stopped doing that (dislike the debuff).
In addition I use an Alchemist's Stone as one of my trinkets providing +40% mana from potions, though I'm currently weighing out if I'll still use it after the Sanctified Judgement buff. (140mp5 for me, 100 mp5 without Alchemist's Stone)

-Mana Spring Totem: As a rule of thumb, never DPS without Windfury. Since you already should have a Shaman in your group, make sure he sticks down a Mana Spring Totem. (That's 50mp5 from enhancement/elemental Shammies, or 62.5mp5 from improved Mana Spring from restos.)

-Blessing of Wisdom: If you have 4+ paladins, you should always get this (after BoS/BoK/BoM). (Improved it's 49.2mp5)

-Dark/Demonic Runes: A luxury, not really to be spammed unless you can afford grinding for it (or it's a new kill), but worth having as a backup for emergencies when you think you're going low. Refunds 900-1500 mana on a seperate CD and does 600-1000 damage to you (which in return give you 60-100 mana through SA when healed up). "If" spammed, it would give you an additional 50mp5.

(-Shadowpriest: I personally have never had one in my group while ret since windfury is the priority and you won't have a shadowpriest in the melee group breaking your raid synergy, but should you get one for some weird reason, a shadowpriest doing ~1200 DPS would roughly return 300mp5 to you! I highly doubt that's ever an option though.)

Gear that helps:

-At least for alliance paladins, I've always been a promoter of tier gear vs full out warrior gear. Servers/Armory are down atm, so off the top of my head I think the pieces of my pve gear that have int on them are 5x T6, Boneweave Girdle, Alchemist's Stone, plus Chest, Bracers, Rings enchanted with +Stats. According to wowhead that's a total of +186 int.

Which is a 3070 mana advantage over someone wearing all out warrior gear with 0 int. This isn't worth awfully much in long fights (where mostly regen counts rather than base mana pool), but in shorter fights it's a godsend.

-T6 two set bonus: Don't leave home without it. I really suggest this to anyone seriously considering pve ret and is currently in Hyjal/BT, it's really worth it. (Estimated 30mp5 on spreadsheet) If only I could say the same for the worthless 4 set bonus...

-Mp5 from gear: Can't really see any mp5 gear worth using besides T6 (or T4) pants providing 9mp5. I guess this is an unfortunate limitation of stat distribution/item value while disregarding class mechanics.

-Alchemist's Stone: Yay or Nay, I've yet to come to a conclusion, but it's an extra 40mp5 while spamming pots and it gives some crit/AP/int.

I'm sure most of this is known, but I thought I'd underline some things which are easily ignored, like just how good/important JoW is for us to function optimally and how big of a damage boost consecration can be if you can maintain it.

Prinsesa · 01/08/08, 11:04 PM

Has anyone done testing on the new 80% Sanctified Judgement and how it relates to Benediction?

I'd like to know if Sanctified Judgement returns the pre- or post-Benediction mana cost of the Seal. That is:

Seal of Blood base mana cost: 210
Seal of Blood 5/5 Benediction mana cost: 178.5

If SJ returns 80% of the pre-Benediction cost, which is 168, then SoB has a net cost of 10.5 mana (spent 178.5, got 168 back)
If SJ returns 80% of the post-Benediction cost, which is 142.8, then SoB has a net cost of 35.7 mana (spent 178.5, got 142.8 back)
If you don't have Benediction at all, then SoB has a net cost of 42 mana (spent 210, got 168 back)

Fiola · 01/08/08, 11:15 PM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

Has anyone done testing on the new 80% Sanctified Judgement and how it relates to Benediction?

I'd like to know if Sanctified Judgement returns the pre- or post-Benediction mana cost of the Seal. That is:

Seal of Blood base mana cost: 210
Seal of Blood 5/5 Benediction mana cost: 178.5

If SJ returns 80% of the pre-Benediction cost, which is 168, then SoB has a net cost of 10.5 mana (spent 178.5, got 168 back)
If SJ returns 80% of the post-Benediction cost, which is 142.8, then SoB has a net cost of 35.7 mana (spent 178.5, got 142.8 back)
If you don't have Benediction at all, then SoB has a net cost of 42 mana (spent 210, got 168 back)

With the 50% SJ, it returned post-benediction cost.

Checking in Shattrah just now, that has not changed.

SoR - 221 mana, returned 177 mana (80%)
SotC - 178 mana, returned 143 mana (80%)

If you look hard, I think there was a post reporting PTR testing 10~ pages back.

• frmorrison · 01/08/08, 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

If SJ returns 80% of the post-Benediction cost, which is 142.8, then SoB has a net cost of 35.7 mana (spent 178.5, got 142.8 back)
If you don't have Benediction at all, then SoB has a net cost of 42 mana (spent 210, got 168 back)

This is how it works.

So you could drop Benediction for a small mana usage increase to pickup imp Might.

Avitus · 01/08/08, 11:20 PM

Unfortunately Sanctified Judgement currently works POST benediction cost, so shockingly enough having Benediction reduces the effectiveness of Sanctified Judgement (though you still end up with a net increase by using both).

So unless they also changed how Sanctified Judgement works with this latest buff, I doubt it has changed in 2.3.2.

Should be easy to check when the servers go up again.

Edit: Beaten to it!

grayrest · 01/09/08, 1:24 AM

Originally Posted by Anhedrin

I have noticed while spec’ing out of the prot tree to forgo precision and trying to cap out my hit at about 140 ish; I would have to focus more on +hit.

The build I was considering would be Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I am also a fairly new ret paladin (and paladin in general, I jumped over from mage just before 2.3 when I saw that Blizz would nerf my tree to oblivion). My guild is just getting into t5 content due to lack of people and a strict recruiting policy, so my experience is Kara and the ZA bear boss.

As for dps tradeoffs, you need 142 hit to be capped and the precision talent provides you with the equivalent of 48 +hit. You obviously have to trade off something to pick up the +hit and for my gear options, the tradeoff stat is crit rating. If you could perfectly trade off hit rating for crit rating, you'd gain 2.17% crit by taking the talent. While the tradeoff isn't trivial, doing crit-> hit isn't off the wall because Blizz tends to create items that make this trade. A particularly good example of this is [Bloodthirster's Wargreaves] versus [Greaves of the Bloodwarder]. In practice, you're probably going to lose slightly less crit and a bit of AP.

As a healer, I see myself primarily as the stabilizing healer. I can't consistently spam HL (more or less every talent in Holy after the 13 I take is about making HL better), so I spam FoL on the tank to soften the spikes while the fully talented healers handle the big heals. Along the same lines, I also take the job of landing the first heal on the tank as the fight starts because I have the lowest threat* of any healer by a fair margin.

* I have not thoroughly tested this so I'm trusting that Fanaticism does what it says and affects healing as well as damage.

As for your build, I would shift your talent points around to this. This build is a fairly pure FoL spammer. Illumination doesn't do that much for FoL spam, much less partial illumination. My preference is to gear for mp5 and gem primarily with Royal Nightseye.

One question I have is whether Sanctified Seals affects healing spells. I assume it does and my FoL crits track my holy crit rate fairly closely, but I haven't watched my spell crit paper doll sheet when adding those talent points.

Svetozar · 01/09/08, 2:46 AM

First of all, Thank you Bellator for the awesome job you are doing here with the speadsheet. You are my hero.

I've been playing with the Item Calc. worksheet and the calculation for me stops on cloack (Vengeance Wrap currently equipped) with error message (Run-time error '9' Subscript out of range)

I am a casual PVE player (Heroics, Karazhan mostly; heading into ZA and Gruul, SSK), so I thought it would be very handy to have an option of choosing the level of loot a player has access to (like maxdps.com has) in the Item calc section.

Thanks again for the good work. Keep it coming

flyingtoastr · 01/09/08, 2:49 AM

Originally Posted by grayrest

One question I have is whether Sanctified Seals affects healing spells. I assume it does and my FoL crits track my holy crit rate fairly closely, but I haven't watched my spell crit paper doll sheet when adding those talent points.

Sanctified Seals does increase all your spell crit ratings by 3%, so yes it will apply to your healing spells.

Valerys · 01/09/08, 4:05 AM

Bellator, can you add Arcane Torrent for the blood elves? It can potentially return 483 mana every 2 minutes (assuming a boss where you can use Mana Tap), that's about 20 mp5.

Diraphise · 01/09/08, 9:16 AM

A toggle for the human expertise racial would be great.