Retribution DPS Theorycraft - Page 96

Ysabelle · 02/20/08, 6:48 PM

Originally Posted by bellator

Just ran these staminaless pieces through the model, and the numbers they are producing compared to anything else in these slots now is incredible

Any chance of an updated spreadsheet with all the new badge loot and tier6 off pieces?

Grayson Carlyle · 02/20/08, 6:59 PM

Originally Posted by Ysabelle

Any chance of an updated spreadsheet with all the new badge loot and tier6 off pieces?

MMO-Champion - World of Warcraft Guides and Raid Strategies

Latest update has new T6 stats. Scroll down a couple posts and it has all badge loot sorted by armor class with prices.

xellos · 02/20/08, 7:04 PM

Originally Posted by Grayson Carlyle

MMO-Champion - World of Warcraft Guides and Raid Strategies

Latest update has new T6 stats. Scroll down a couple posts and it has all badge loot sorted by armor class with prices.

Ysabelle is referring to Bellator's dps spreadsheet.

Grayson Carlyle · 02/20/08, 7:19 PM

Originally Posted by xellos

Ysabelle is referring to Bellator's dps spreadsheet.

Wow, sorry about that. I totally missed a word or something in her post. My apologies.

Theras · 02/20/08, 9:09 PM

The other ramification of Expertise rating being added to the three Tier 6 pieces is that they completely nullify the [Shard of Contempt] as a DPS trinket. Of course, the next two best available trinkets are the Blackened Naaru Sliver (not yet dropped), and... a [Dragonspine Trophy].

And here I thought I could stop killing Gruul every week.

flyingtoastr · 02/20/08, 9:21 PM

It depends exactly how high boss dodge rates are. If the commonly accepted 5.6% stands then the 3 pieces of T6 will easily fill almost all the expertise you could need (more than you need as a human). If the number presented in the rogue thread is the true dodge rate then you will need 103 Expertise rating to nullify dodges, or 25 more rating than T6 offers.

It does make it a lot less valuable, but if you absolutely need that cap then I'm sure its still viable. Unless of course there is more SWP gear with expertise (I haven't looked at the loot lists too closely so I'm not quite sure).

Theras · 02/20/08, 10:31 PM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

It depends exactly how high boss dodge rates are. If the commonly accepted 5.6% stands then the 3 pieces of T6 will easily fill almost all the expertise you could need (more than you need as a human). If the number presented in the rogue thread is the true dodge rate then you will need 103 Expertise rating to nullify dodges, or 25 more rating than T6 offers.

It does make it a lot less valuable, but if you absolutely need that cap then I'm sure its still viable. Unless of course there is more SWP gear with expertise (I haven't looked at the loot lists too closely so I'm not quite sure).

Even for non-humans and assuming a 103 expertise cap, I'm still getting the [Dragonspine Trophy] pulling out slightly ahead of the [Shard of Contempt]. For Humans it's no contest; the DST is vastly superior. Even an [Hourglass of the Unraveller] would be better. Don't get me wrong, it's still a great trinket for anybody who doesn't have access to Sunwell gear. However, I will, and it's rather disappointing that our best end game trinket will still be a rare drop from one of the most worthless 25 man bosses (second only to Magtheridon, though that's changing in 2.4).

Avitus · 02/21/08, 1:18 AM

Wow, dumping the whole itemvalue reserved for Stam into damage stats (and expertise no less!) is a pretty radical move, I guess it's the sorta thing you'd expect they put at "end of TBC" itemization.

I'd assume you won't find any upgrades to T6 wrist/waist/feet for any class now expect in WotlK since it'd have to be at least 20 itemlevels higher just to break even DPS wise if it has stam (and there are no items that high in TBC afaik), similar to how good the relatively low item level [Belt of Blasting] (SSC recipe drop) was for casters all the way up to Hyjal and BT.

A DPS fanatic's dream and every raid leader's/healer's worst nightmare, you lose 100 stam by equipping these 3 pieces, meaning everyone in your raid (except tanks) will be running at ~1100 less HP.

Besides these items being already best in slot before that change, the extra expertise from the 3 items adds a shocking ~4.85% DPS increase to all your melee attacks simply put since you're previously dodged attacks will land, which is very hefty.

If I had to compare to our closest itemization relatives (Warriors and Enhancement Shammies), I'd say we got a better deal than warriors (who got mostly hit rating which is much easier to get instead of the coveted expertise) and a slighly worse deal than Enhancement Shammies.

Just a small nitpick, but I'd take their +52 int (~900 mana) on those 3 items over +25 crit rating (1.125% crit) ours give (if we assume the rest of the stats are equalish), itemvalue distribution logic says spreading out item value is better, very weird considering enhance shammies are never really mana starved especially compared to ret paladins.

Anyway, looking forward to having every single attack land from now on, no misses/dodges anymore

Tekzor · 02/21/08, 2:51 AM

Here is a 2 second portion of a combat log filtered down to my attacks, JoW, JoL, and what I think is the WF buff fading (unsure, so I left it in):

2/20 21:18:07.119  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,0xF13000613200286C,Brutallus,0x10a48,1765,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
2/20 21:18:07.479  SPELL_MISSED,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,0xF13000613200286C,Brutallus,0x10a48,26017,Vindication,0x2,IMMUNE
2/20 21:18:07.494  SPELL_HEAL,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,27163,Judgement of Light,0x2,95,nil
2/20 21:18:07.494  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,0xF13000613200286C,Brutallus,0x10a48,20424,Seal of Command,0x2,1906,2,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
2/20 21:18:07.729  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,25584,Windfury Attack,0x8,BUFF
2/20 21:18:07.760  SPELL_MISSED,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,0xF13000613200286C,Brutallus,0x10a48,26017,Vindication,0x2,IMMUNE
2/20 21:18:07.776  SPELL_MISSED,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,0xF13000613200286C,Brutallus,0x10a48,26017,Vindication,0x2,IMMUNE
2/20 21:18:07.791  SPELL_HEAL,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,27163,Judgement of Light,0x2,95,nil
2/20 21:18:08.213  SPELL_ENERGIZE,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,27165,Judgement of Wisdom,0x2,74,0
2/20 21:18:08.213  SPELL_ENERGIZE,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,27165,Judgement of Wisdom,0x2,74,0
2/20 21:18:08.573  SPELL_ENERGIZE,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,27165,Judgement of Wisdom,0x2,74,0
2/20 21:18:08.979  SPELL_ENERGIZE,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,27165,Judgement of Wisdom,0x2,74,0
2/20 21:18:09.432  SPELL_ENERGIZE,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,27165,Judgement of Wisdom,0x2,74,0

Given the timing of the procs and looking at similar events in my 100mb combat log from Brut tonight, I would draw the conclusion that Vindication can still cause JoW procs. I would be happy to provide a sample log for someone else to parse/confirm if they would like. I use stoneform and then holywrath to break up pulls and ease looking through the logs at the end of the night.

Valerys · 02/21/08, 3:50 AM

Originally Posted by bellator

Just ran these staminaless pieces through the model, and the numbers they are producing compared to anything else in these slots now is incredible

Do the gloves exceed [Hard Khorium Battlefists] now?

ariesz · 02/21/08, 4:15 AM

The t6 gloves drop from azgalor, the new pieces are bracers, belt, and boots. Not gloves._.

Anarkii · 02/21/08, 4:15 AM

Originally Posted by Valerys

Do the gloves exceed [Hard Khorium Battlefists] now?

Lightbringer gloves? Only the new T6 pieces were changed(belt/bracers/boots), so gloves remain unchanged and is below S3 gloves and the crafted gloves in 2.4

Trakor · 02/21/08, 4:26 AM

Originally Posted by Theras

Even for non-humans and assuming a 103 expertise cap, I'm still getting the [Dragonspine Trophy] pulling out slightly ahead of the [Shard of Contempt]. For Humans it's no contest; the DST is vastly superior. Even an [Hourglass of the Unraveller] would be better. Don't get me wrong, it's still a great trinket for anybody who doesn't have access to Sunwell gear. However, I will, and it's rather disappointing that our best end game trinket will still be a rare drop from one of the most worthless 25 man bosses (second only to Magtheridon, though that's changing in 2.4).

For alliance pallies, I was under the impression that both [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] and [Berserker's Call] were better than DST, simply because haste might not affect SoC ppm.

I've seen people here say that [Libram of Avengement] is better than [Libram of Divine Judgement]. Now that they are fixing Avengement in 2.4, is this still the case?

Theras · 02/21/08, 4:55 AM

Originally Posted by Trakor

For alliance pallies, I was under the impression that both [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] and [Berserker's Call] were better than DST, simply because haste might not affect SoC ppm.

The DPS spreadsheet already assumes it doesn't affect Seal of Command, and it's still better by a pretty significant margin - even if you assume only one trinket proc per minute.

Originally Posted by Trakor

I've seen people here say that [Libram of Avengement] is better than [Libram of Divine Judgement]. Now that they are fixing Avengement in 2.4, is this still the case?

No. Once the Libram of Avengement is fixed, it will be strictly inferior for Seal of Command usage.

Anarkii · 02/21/08, 5:02 AM

Avengement was still fine(i.e. not fixed/nerfed) when I was on the PTR a couple of days back. Do you have any recent info regarding the change, or it's from the 'Known Bugs/Issues List' they posted a long time back?

Liania · 02/21/08, 8:13 AM

Noob question incoming but i keep hearing about a dps spreadsheet but i cant find it anywhere:s

So was wondering if some of you could point me in its direction :>

Buliwyf · 02/21/08, 8:53 AM

So was wondering if some of you could point me in its direction :>

page 1 item 1. previously i was worried that this might be an out of date link but it's not, they keep it updated.

Habaka · 02/21/08, 11:41 AM

Right, I figured I'd give my effort for the SoC Haste stuff and went to Blasted lands with my full haste gear...

Sinbelor - WWS

I understand it's not that long, since I went afk for some 4 hours and found myself dead when I came back :<

I did have JoL on when I left, so I dont really know what happened, but my combat log did show SoC's till I died, so I really dont know if it's worth anything, but there it is regardless... I had the following haste items on:

[The Savage's Choker]
[Torch of the Damned]
[Cloak of Fiends]
[Bindings of Lightning Reflexes]
[Belt of Seething Fury]
[Band of Devastation]

So 196 haste in total
Edit: Right erm, thats 12.43% haste according to char sheet... 3.8 torch down to 3.38

Not that great with parsing and such, so if someone could have a look at it and make something out of it :>

Oh and erm, this was done on live servers

orkyben · 02/21/08, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Habaka

Right, I figured I'd give my effort for the SoC Haste stuff and went to Blasted lands with my full haste gear...

Sinbelor - WWS

I understand it's not that long, since I went afk for some 4 hours and found myself dead when I came back :<

I did have JoL on when I left, so I dont really know what happened, but my combat log did show SoC's till I died, so I really dont know if it's worth anything, but there it is regardless... I had the following haste items on:

[The Savage's Choker]
[Torch of the Damned]
[Cloak of Fiends]
[Bindings of Lightning Reflexes]
[Belt of Seething Fury]
[Band of Devastation]

So 196 haste in total
Edit: Right erm, thats 12.43% haste according to char sheet... 3.8 torch down to 3.38

Not that great with parsing and such, so if someone could have a look at it and make something out of it :>

Oh and erm, this was done on live servers

On a 3.8 speed weapon you would expect a 44.3% proc rate on Seal of Command.

On a 3.38 speed weapon you would expect a 39.4% proc rate on Seal of Command.

If I've done it correctly, you observed a 36.26% proc rate - if SoC scaled with haste you would have obtained 44.3%, if it didnt scale with haste you should have observed a 39.4% rate.

That said you need many more swings to prove anything! =D

I think the general conclusion is the SoC doesn't currently scale with Haste.

• Zurm · 02/21/08, 2:09 PM

I was doing some thinking regarding this:

I would imagine a fury warrior or rogue would get more use out of it, but has anyone tried to model it in the spreadsheet? Assuming a sufficiently hasted weapon, I would imagine this trinket might be quite good. I'm just curious how good, and if we can even try to model it this early (since one hasn't dropped yet).

I suppose a lot of it matters if it procs off seal's, judgements, and vindication.

DarKNecross · 02/21/08, 2:44 PM

You can't model something without knowing the proc-rate. Also, the main factor is if the trinket has a hidden cooldown, or if it's PPM like Madness of the Betrayer. Furthermore, if after the proc, your next attack grants 44AP or the initial attack does. It's still best used for a fast-attacking player, like a Rogue, Fury Warrior, or Hunter.

bellator · 02/21/08, 7:24 PM

Have done a little modelling on Naaru Sliver taking account into different variables on proc rate / hidden cooldown, how it works etc etc. For a SoB paladin end game even when being stingy on the proc rate etc it is still coming out as a "top two" trinket with DST just ahead. For paladins, more rests on the AP bonus from it. It seems to be edging ahead of Berserkers call, but whether it will replace DST in the DST/Crusade combo is harder to tell without testing. Personally it's worth getting for bosses where Crusade not viable, or for the time when the +Dam portion of Crusade becomes useless. However as has been said, fury wwarriors / rogues will see more benfit from it.

Anarkii · 02/21/08, 8:46 PM

For anyone who missed it :
http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr...-tanzanite.jpg

The heroic SV blue gem was changed/nerfed. So back to 5str/7sta for blue slots.

xellos · 02/22/08, 1:11 PM

I'm considering picking up LW for 2.4 if nothing else is added to BS. The LW crafted chest and gloves turned out to be 6 dps and 7 hit more than the BS crafted chest and gloves when I played with the spreadsheet. The increase in hit is what attracts me along with being able to use Drums of Battle.

• Zurm · 02/22/08, 2:45 PM

Found this today and figured it was worth linking... I can't verify because I couldn't find the blue post in the thread they linked. Anyway, looks like alliance pallies get what they want, now i want the human racial in return :P

Ally get SoB

AGAIN, I CAN'T GUARANTEE IT IS AT ALL TRUE.