i realize there over 90 pages, i read at least half of them and haven't came across, and a straight answer would be faster.

edit: found my answer from someone

Theres no reason to be insulting to others in this thread because you can't be bothered to use the spreadsheet or read. I have just casually glanced at this thread 4-5 times and even I know this information from this thread. (I don't have a ret pally, and neither does my guild atm).

The quick answer is Mongoose, but there is a spreadsheet link on the front page for a reason. And I guarantee you didn't do the search, there's at least 5 pages of discussion on it. Please check more carefully next time!

Regarding a new 4pc bonus, I really like the idea of making HOW instant cast. Other ideas are +% CS dmg (like s3 gloves), +% seal dmg (as mentioned before), removing the mana cost of crusader strike, or some really sweet effect when you judge. I think lobbying for a 4pc bonus change is important for all of us to do, as it is one of the main things still wrong with end-game raiding. Every other class/spec uses 4pc t6 as their endgame, why should we have to be different?

Bringing up the macro discussion a few pages back.

I have done some testing with both :
/castsequence reset=10/target/combat Judgement, Seal of Command(Rank 6), Crusader Strike, Crusader Strike, Judgement, Seal of Command(Rank 6), Crusader Strike

and

/cast Judgement
/cast Seal of Command(Rank 6)

At a glance, the second one requires you to be more aware as you're using Crusader Strike ''manually'', and, in addition to that there's the already mentioned ''no seal'' problem when you judge too early by accident. Which might happen a few times during long fights.

The first ''automatic'' macro was mainly the reason I decided to post this. It seemed to be working fine during first few tests. Then I noticed that when it comes to judging and resealing, it's sometimes impossible to double-tap the macro to reseal before the next hit lands. Which wasn't an issue with the second macro, as it uses both spells instantly together, not sequentially (does it make it completely independent from swing timer?)

So with the castsequence macro you have to watch the swing timer pretty closely, because if you're nearing the next swing you might not have enough time to reapply the seal quickly enough, resulting in a potential proc loss.

I was wondering, if there's a way to somehow embed the simple judge-and-reseal macro into the longer sequence to avoid this ? Alternative methods/ideas are welcome.

All paladin instants do not reset the swing timer. We have no reason to expect an instant HoW would break that exception. (Anymore than hunters need to time their Arcane Shots to not interrupt their auto-shot)


An instant cast HoW *would* be an interesting 4pc bonus, but it'd also make T6 indispensable for Arena. Ranged execute? Please!

The sustained DPS benefit for raids would be questionable since the mana efficiency scaling on HoW is poor.

Instant HoW would reset the swing timer if it was made instant by a set bonus. Whether or not a spell resets the swing timer isn't actually related to it's cast time -- there's a few instants such as Moonfire that do reset it, and spells made instant with things like NS or Enh Shaman 2/5 T5 still do interrupt it. There's even spells with cast times that don't (Steady Shot).

Your numbers:

Fully raid buffed with every typical percentage modifier possible (Judgement of the Crusader, Sanctity Aura, Improved Sanctity Aura, Vengeance x3, Crusade, 4-piece Tier 6 bonus), the following numbers can be obtained.

Hammer of Wrath (Rank IV)
Ideal Average Damage: 1161
Ideal DPS: 193.43
Ideal DPM: 2.64

Consecration (Rank VI)
Ideal Average Damage: 958
Ideal DPS: 119.76
Ideal DPM: 1.45

Consider downranking:

Consecration (Rank I)
120 mana
Base Damage: 64
Base DPS: 8
Base DPM: 0.53

JotC - assume no Vengeace etc/bonuses, but 95% bonus from JotC. (no downrank penalty)

Ideal Damage: 85 (base damage post modifiers) + 219*0.95 = 293
Ideal DPS: 36 damage
Ideal DPM: 2.44

Furthermore, R1 Consecrate gets 47% of +dmg per cast for 120 mana, while HoW gets 43% per cast for 440 mana. That's .39% DPM/+dmg versus 0.1~% DPM/+dmg. R1 Consecrate efficiency scales faster. (And is more efficient at the baseline if you don't have the T6 4pc set bonus)


Factoring in all the % bonuses, DPM scaling increases to 0.52% for R1 Cons., and .13% for R4 HoW.

For R1 Consecrate scaling to eliminate the DPM bonus of HoW, you need .2 / (0.52% - 0.13%) = 52 +dmg, and you don't have to wait until the target is at 20% hp. If it's an AE fight and your consecrate can hit more than 1 mob, even better.


EDIT: And if you have JoW, effective mana cost of R1 goes down to 120 - 37 (74 * 50%) = 83 mana per cast. That improves DPM by ~50%.

Fiola, I'm comparing the two big "mana dump" abilities we have. As in "oh shit, the boss is at 15% and I have 4000 mana left, what do I do to convert this extra mana into damage so I run OOM right as the boss dies?". In other words, which spell maximizes your DPS by using every ounce of mana you have. Of course rank 1 consecration is more efficient than Hammer of Wrath, hell its more efficient than almost everything we can use. But that was not the point of my post at all.

EDIT: The entire conversation is about the Tier 6 bonus, so why wouldn't you include it?

She did include it, read the whole thread :p

But I think Fiola missed the point as well, about HoW being a shit! the mob is at 10% health and I have 100% Mana, how do I burn it the fastest I can and boost DPS at the same time?!

Consecration is better, since it does not reset swing Timer.

Unless you are able to without flaw time it so your HoW does not cause you to lose swing-time, of course.

If you have 4k mana left at the end of the fight, you could have been using R1 more often throughout the fight.


If you're already using R1, then you could have interweaved R4 Consecrates (95% of +dmg per cast). If you're using R4 the whole fight AND you still have 4k mana left near the end, then the fight is either very short or atypical (few fights give you unlimited mana).

The point about the T6 bonus was that without it, any level of gear with JotC would have R1 outperforming HoW in DPM. (and you can use any rank of consecrate from 100% to 0, whereas HoW has the 20% to 0 restriction)



Going back to HoW's DPS contribution:

Hammer of Wrath (Rank IV)
Ideal Average Damage: 1161
Ideal DPS: 193.43
Ideal DPM: 2.64

Since HoW is only available for 20% of a fight, it's overall DPS contribution is, at best, 1/5 of its Ideal DPS.

HoW Overall DPS: 193.43 / 5 = 38.7

R1 Consecration Overall DPS (same as ideal DPS): 36



(This does add to your point about the 4pc bonus adding very little to overall DPS)

EDIT: We seem to agree about the usefulness of HoW for DPS. I just think HoW's efficiency (2.4~) is poor because I can get better DPM from CS, SoC, JoC, and R1 Consecrate, which are the "staple" DPS abilities.

Guys, look. HoW is a bad idea for PvE. Ok?

Whichever dev put that into the 4set T6 bonus had no idea what he was doing.

So lets please not waste more time trying to figure out how to unbend a broken idea.


Simplicity is king. Most classes get up to a flat 5-6% damage increase, I'd want something that's statistically the same: Increase Seal/Judgement damage by whatever would equal to 5-6% damage or increase CS damage.

Collision/synergy with the Vengeful gloves is their own problem. They could just as easily do it so "t6 set bonus and vengeful bonus don't stack" and only the greater effect is used if you wear both (which would be the T6 4set bonus since it would have to be equivalent to 5-6% total damage in order to be equal.).

In order for CS bonus to give 5-6% total damage you'd need to increase CS damage by ~25%, if you assume a damage breakdown of 20% CS damage of your total damage.

The rogue bonus applies to Sinister Strike, Backstab and Mutilate actually (and its 6% more damage, talk about hot).

In general, all of the 4 piece bonuses for Tier 6 provide a static percentage modifier to a main combat ability. The only exceptions are:

Resto Druids: 5% on Healing Touch (the only bonus as useless as the ret pally one)
Enhancement Shamans: Whenever you use Stormstrike you gain 70 attack power (Not a percentage modifier, but still useful)
Ret Paladins: 10% more HoW damage (as proven over and over again, completely useless)

To keep the bonus in line with almost every other set it would have to be some sort of modifier to seals, judgement, or CS. Since they already dumped the CS bonus onto the season 3 gloves I would assume the logical new bonus would be to increase damage done by Judgements by x%. It would make wearing more "paladin" gear viable in addition to making Judgement a much more desired spell to use at every cooldown.

After trying tons of different macros, the best macro I could find was:

/cast Judgement
/castsequence reset=8/alt Seal of Command, Judgement
/startattack


This has the best of both worlds:

-You can mash it and it won't reseal too early and waste mana (similar to traditional castsequence macros)
-You can time it outside the GCD and it will insta judge and reseal in only 1 press (similar to traditional multi-line cast macros)
-You don't need to Seal up before you start using it. (Cast macros)

The alt modifier I put in in case it bugs out you can reset it.


I've also tried to embed [equipped:Shields] and [noequipped:Shields] to let it either use SoC or SoR, but for some reason that doesn't seem to work well within castsequences (only in "cast") and breaks, or requires you to switch shield and sword in and out to re-activate.

Also, personally I think putting CS into the macro to create a true "1 button macro" is always going to lead to collisions or problems somewhere, I'd rather have more versatility and use another button for CS.

The only reason to use a SoC/SoB macro in the first place is because Seal->Judge->Seal->Judge... is a retarded mechanic from the get go.

Repeat after me: HoW is not a pve DPS talent. It's a pvp talent.

I really fail to see the point of this. Even if HoW was instant, the mana drain would be too high to sustain and it would be only a mild advantage at <20%.

It would equally be pretty overpowered in PvP and cause lots of whining and subsequent nerfing "omg ranged execute! *cough* priests".

It's a lose-lose situation. Too mana intensive for PvE, too overpowered for PvP. HoW is fine as it is.

You do know most warriors have stopped using Execute <20% and just continue using their Slam rotation since it offers higher DPS?

NM. Didn't consider that the set bonus is the gear cap essentially as noted below! :p

Well, Judgement is a very small contribution to our damage, it would have to be some incredibly hefty modifier.

If we assume Judgement = 10% total damage, it would have to increase Judgement damage by 50% to be in line with other 4 set T6 set bonuses.

Additionally, I think it's a bad idea unless they finally fix Judgements to gain from AP so it actually scales with our gear.


A modifier to increase Seal damage or both Seal and Judgement damage would make more sense. Hell, I don't see why they can't give us a CS damage bonus that simply doesn't stack with S3 gloves as mentioned earlier.




Anyway, to put things into perspective for people, here's a quick list of what other classes get at 4 set T6 (from Item sets - World of Warcraft ):


Malefic Raiment (Warlock):

(4) Set: Increases the damage dealt by your Shadow Bolt and Incinerate abilities by 6%.

6% more total damage.


Tempest Regalia (Mage):

(4) Set: Increases the damage of your Fireball, Frostbolt, and Arcane Missiles abilities by 5%.

5% more total damage.


Onslaught Battlegear (Warrior):

(4) Set: Increases the damage of your Mortal Strike and Bloodthirst abilities by 5%.

Missing damage breakdown info to gather total damage increase, I'll gather some more info later. Definitely one of the lesser set bonuses.


Slayer's Armor (Rogue):

(4) Set: Increases the damage dealt by your Backstab, Sinister Strike, Mutilate, and Hemorrhage abilities by 6%.

Missing damage breakdown info to gather total damage increase.


Gronnstalker's Armor (Hunter):

(4) Set: Increases the damage dealt by your Steady Shot ability by 10%.

Missing damage breakdown info to gather total damage increase.


Thunderheart Harness (Feral Druid):

(4) Set: Increases the damage dealt by your Rip, Swipe, and Ferocious Bite abilities by 15%.

Missing damage breakdown info to gather total damage increase.


Thunderheart Regalia (Balance Druid):

(4) Set: Increases the critical strike chance of your Starfire ability by 5%.

Missing damage breakdown info to gather total damage increase.


Absolution Regalia (Shadow Priest):

(4) Set: Increases the damage from your Mind Blast ability by 10%.

Missing damage breakdown info to gather total damage increase.


Skyshatter Regalia (Elemental Shaman):

(4) Set: Increases the damage dealt by your Lightning Bolt ability by 5%.

->Also worth noting however, while most classes get ability/mana cost reduction or mana regen:

(2) Set: Whenever you have an air totem, an earth totem, a fire totem, and a water totem active at the same time, you gain 15 mana per 5 sec, 35 spell critical strike rating, and up to 45 spell damage. (lol!)

Missing damage breakdown info to gather total damage increase.


Skyshatter Harness (Enhancement Shaman):

(4) Set: Whenever you use Stormstrike, you gain 70 attack power for 12 sec.

Missing damage breakdown info to gather total damage increase.




AND



Lightbringer Battlegear (Retribution Paladin):

(4) Set: Increases the damage dealt by your Hammer of Wrath ability by 10%.

0% damage increase! HoW is never used and if used (at immense mana cost) leads to reduction of total damage!





This is just to illustrate, I hope to fill in the blanks about what each set bonus means as a total damage increase when I get more time (PM if you have more info) and will update this.

And you get 4/5 T6 warrior DPS set at the gear cap level which this discussion is based on (set bonuses)

I realized what the bonuses applied to, but what I was them not all being as powerful as they are for Warlocks and Mages. Warlocks and Mages get a flat 6%/5% damage increase, whereas Rogues/Warriors get +6%/5% damage to about 20% of their overall damage.

You realize you're comparing Execute and Hammer of Wrath even though, in PvE, Hammer of Wrath works more like Slam (without regard to the sub-20% clause)?

That is because Execute and Hammer of Wrath have the same Damage Potential Gap (20-0%)

Yet weaving in Slam increases damage significantly and is the basis of all endgame MS warrior damage (100%-0%).


Where as weaving in HoW (for 20%-0%) causes loss of damage plus an unsustainable mana drain and is therefore of no use at all.

Would it be made instacast, the mana cost would still be not sustainable and the damage benefit would be minimal at best on the grand scale of things (if one should assume you'd have enough mana to keep up your rotation + HoW spam <20%, which is definitely not the case).

As well as opening the flood gates to hell about the "HoW overpowered in PVP" issue.


I really fail to understand why you want to change HoW for the purpose of PvE, of all the things that could get fixing?


Why bog down on an issue that never was meant to be for PvE in the first place, so cumbersome to use due to the unsustainable mana drain and is irrelevant 80% of the fight?

HoW = PvP Tool and Solo PvE Humanoid Runner tool.

There is and should be no wish or want to justify it's inclusion on T6 4 Piece. It's not an ability we even use.

Oh, I misunderstood. You're entirely correct of course.

Even as miserably inefficient as it is, Hammer of Wrath does provide the largest "bang for the buck" when the boss is nearing death (and is still more efficient than Rank VI Conseration, the only other viable alternative for a mana dump). Its overall DPS at <20% is much larger than Consecration (and with the additional bonus that it can crit and takes melee hit/crit it has even more going for it). It is the same idea as a mage spamming Arcane Blast: dump every ounce of mana you have into pure damage because anything you have left over is a waste. I really think the original design for the ability was centered around this idea: heavy mana cost, big damage, only when a foe is low on health.

Are there things that could use more attention? Of course. It really would be nice to get a viable finisher though as an alternative to our odd "single target AoE" thing we always have going on.

I find it highly amusing that you compare the enhancement shaman tier 6 set to the retribution set, go look at how many shamans wear tier 6 set, maybe 1 in 10, maybe even less than that. You can't just compare set bonuses you have to look at the gear itself too, the shaman tier 6 is the biggest pile of junk ever made AND then it has god awful set bonuses (by the way the 4 set bonus is ~ passive 65 AP - a 2% AP buff at T6 level and the 2set has absolutely no value at all).

Considering you got a set that tailored to your needs, and aren't forced to wear leather... I'd say you are hardly doing bad.