Wilken

I think if they are looking to make the ON use pocketwatch like Trinkets less powerfull in endgame, they should just put diminishing returns on the trinkets on use itself, Not every Trinket is the same, and you are expected to be at a certain content level when you recieve it. So Making the on use effect of a kara trinket useless to a BT geared Tank would not be so bad.

 

Pitbuller

Now avoidance have exponential returns. If you have 50% avoidance and get 10% more you cut 20% more of incoming hits.(50% vs 40%). But if you have 60% and get 10% more you cut 25% more of incoming hits(40% vs 30%).

If formula work just like armor forumula now. Then dodge and parry have linear returns and this solve lot of boss encounter tuning problems. No more need to sunwell radiance kinda bandaid fixes.




Edit: Spreadsheet is yuor friend not enemy. Even without this new mechanic stat relative values has always change every time you get upgrade.

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

levk

But his point is that now you have an item with some agility and you have an item with same dodge rating the tank will go for dodge rating because it's better for dodge. With diminishing returns on dodge rating but not agility he'll have to go look at a spreadsheet to figure out what's best for him. Not only that, while the agility item might be worse for him at one point it might become better at some point later because of verbatim upgrades in other slots. And it's not just agility it's defense rating as well.

 

ZulazeeluIcecrown

Well with the massive increase in Block Value thanks to the Strength change, it may well behoove Warriors and Paladins to stack Defense Rating. That's counter-intuitive from the point of view of today where you definitely don't want to do that... but if you figure a Block as being meaningful mitigation, maybe it's worth it, especially with the diminishing returns on Dodge and Parry rating?

Just seems like this doesn't help their "gear unification" strategy, unless Death Knights get a talent to turn Block into something else.

 

Jessie

I had posted an alternate suggestion to Guarded by the Light on the beta forums, and I figured I'd run it by you guys, too. This was originally thought of as just an alternative to the various block > mana return talent suggestions. I based the concept off of a mix of the Warrior's Justified Killing and Rogue's Turn the Tables.

This was my suggestion for Guarded by the Light that I posted in its own thread.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Guarded by the Light
Whenever anyone in your party or raid blocks, dodges, or parries an attack your next Shield of Righteousness or Hammer of the Righteous has 15% increased chance to critically hit and return 10% of the damage done in mana if used within 10 seconds
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That talent change would also address the off-tanking threat/mana issue as well as help alleviate the mana cost of consecration when hitting multiple targets, since HotR would be returning more mana.

I'm not sure about the best way to go about tuning it, but I think the increased damage and mana return would work very well to help alleviate most of our big problems:
- Increases offtanking threat
- More mana returned in multi-target situations to help support the increased mana usage
- Reduces the mana starvation as gear improves

You might even be able to figure out a way to make it something that stacks instead, so that if you get a string of avoidance, the mana return will also scale. The main point is to target the mechanics of Turn the Tables to help out the protection tree.

When we look at you we don't even see the testicles on your chin. We see the testicles in your heart.

 

zenos

Reading the information in the "Raid Stacking" post by the class designers leads one to believe that the direction they have in mind for retribution paladins is a melee version of the BC shadow priest. They go on to say they plan to narrow the gap between "utility" classes and "pure" dps classes, by upping utility dps and adding utility to otherwise pure classes. With the target being that total dps will be within the margin of player skill, meaning a well played ret paladin will be competitive with a rogue played by a mediocre player.

Let's assume for a moment that they execute this strategy well.

What does this imply for the spec as a whole? Shadow priests are very desired in raids but so is a well geared ret paladin in live. It would seem to imply that we'll be consigned to the "2nd tier" dpser with additional raid utility, but that 2nd tier will not suffer from the same gap that it currently does in live(rather a diminished gap)

The question is do you want to play a melee based shadow priest? Is this hinted role a benefit when compared to our existing state?

 

◊ Cathela

In TBC, the really glaring difference between a Shadow Priest and a Ret paladin for raid utility is the utility brought by a second shadow priest versus a second Ret paladin.

If you have one Spriest in a raid, you already have Misery and Shadow Weaving, but the second Spriest brings mana regen to a second group, which often makes him worthwhile.

If you have one Ret paladin in a raid, you already have Imp. Crusader, already have judgement maintenance, already have Improved BoM, already have Imp. Sanctity Aura for your melee group, etc. You can add Imp. Sanctity to another group, but unless you're setting up two Windfury groups the paladin's dps is going to suck. If you're really desperate for blessings, then maybe a second Ret paladin is better than playing without salv or whatever, but that's not much of a draw.

Adding the mana regen talent to Ret makes Ret paladins a bit more like shadow priests that way, and that, at least, is a good thing.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

• Arikah

The first statement is already the case in live, where i routinely top mediocre rogues that also outgear me. The problem really at that point comes down to thinking, well maybe i should reroll a rogue myself, and do even more dps... because our class will never ever be able to top dps vs a pure dps class. I think/hope they are trying to narrow that gap by giving every dps class utility, because ask mages how they feel about warlocks, or fury warriors about rogues.

Playing a melee shadow priest? Well, that all depends on how exactly JotW functions, since we don't know how it splits up mana return between party/raid. It would be pretty powerful now, but i do not think it will entice people to bring more than one ret paladin in wrath, when you consider that shadow priests will become more powerful (more dps?) and hunters will also be able to return mana to the raid. With hunters doing the ridiculous damage they are doing now you will be more likely to stack hunters than anything else, as they scale just as well as we do in a raid setting.

I think what we really need is for blizz to decide how JotW works and fix it so we can test the damn thing; having it return 60% judgement damage caused to EACH person would be overpowered, but splitting that return up (20% per person) would be what... (assuming 5k average judgements) 100mp5? And should it randomly pick 3 people in the raid, or should they change it to party only?

edit: perhaps a bit offtopic, but anyone else see http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...xramas_01.jpg? Holy crap.

 

Kigale

You are combining two specs of hunter into 1. Only a Survival hunter returns mana to the raid. In live, like ret paladins, Survival hunters are useless beyond the 1st one (Expose Weakness does not stack). BM hunters are the high dps hunters, and they do not have access to Hunting Party (mana/rage/energy returning talent). Both Hunting party and JotW succeed in giving a reason (possible small, maybe big) to bring a second ret or survival hunter.

 

Noctivagant

This spread of JotW is one of my biggest concerns, not just for desirability, but for our own functioing.

.6x is 3 times .2x! That's a huge difference. Every six seconds you are going to get back 1/3 as much mana when in a trio or larger as when alone?

What if a Warrior, or DK, or Rogue got 1/3 as much energy/rage/RP or Rune recharge back when grouped? Can you imagine grouped Rogues getting 7 energy every 2 seconds. Even if their friends got some kind of benefit, that would make them totally shut down.

I have posted on this topic several times here, so I hate to sound like a broken record, but its all about JotW for me, because mana is, well, everything you do, really.

 

Aerynlore

What is further ironic is that since Hunting Party returns more than just mana (but only to party members), yet JotW only gives out mana, Survival Hunters will probably replace the Ret spot in the melee group.
However, with LotP/Rampage and totems going raid-wide, perhaps this is a boon to our Retribution wielders. Now the option of being in a BM Hunter's group (+3% damage) or a Shadow Priest's group increase. It seems a little ironic that a mana-battery paladin would be in a group with a Shadow Priest, but if JotW goes to the closest three mana-bar players, then the enhancement shaman and protection paladins are going to rejoice. Perhaps that is a small, implied intent. Who else has mana-bars and melee besides two of our specs, and Enh Shaman? If (and that's a big 'if', I know) JotW goes to the three closest mana-users, then we really only want three mana-bars in melee, or two in melee and one person in the raid as a mini-Innervate. Or one in melee... etc.

Without having a party-specific buff anymore, is there any requirement for what party-members Ret needs to be viable, and which classes benefit from having a ret paladin in their party?

 

• frmorrison

In Wrath, there will be little need for a melee group (however, it is nice for organization), since most buffs are raid-wide.

However, BM Hunters 3% damage, Survival Hunters various gains, and Shadow Priests mana gains are group-only.

I think Paladins will not need mana help, so the best group for a Ret Paladin are 4 BM Hunters .

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Darkmantle

Warriors have different rage generation when soloing because mobs are hitting them to give them rage. Rogues get energy back between mobs. Having paladins generate more mana for themselves while soloing is perfectly in line with making grinding equivalent between all the melee classes.

Warriors and rogues having more rage / energy gives them more damage. A paladin having more mana is first about longevity and then about damage because you can start doing more high cost damage spells e.g. consecrate. In a raid situation it is assumed you will have higher mana regen because of all the AP and spell damage buffs to increase judgement of wisdom as well as all the different haste and mana regen abilities.

Now it might be a nice change to have JotW to also give rage, energy and RP to your group to increase your group synergy but from a personal longevity standpoint it hardly seems a big issue to have it split.

 

Noctivagant

To be honest, I know its not the purveyance of this board per se, but one thing that struck me odd about the spread is really smaller groups, like a duo that is leveling or doing dailies, or pvp'ing in a pack. Also, this could extend to a non-optimized 5 man without a lot of mana splashing.

Now, our Warrior or Rogue, they get a partner, and their average partner isn't going to give them more rage or energy. Yes, there will be some builds that do have Energy or Rage splash, but for the most part there regen rate is going to be better or at worst the same. If the War can't get aggro, his will drop, so that is something to consider. The Rogue doesn't care, his regen is similar.

Now, our Ret Paladin adds a partner, again a partner with no mana splash and no earth shattering AP/SP buffs.

Every judge is now returning 1/2 the mana to the Paladin as opposed to solo. This is a unique change to mana regen and therefore output, sustainability and potential downtime. Now, his mana splash may be helping his buddy out and increase the kill rate, but the kill rate is less important to fun than sucking wind, imho. A player should look to hold back on the throttle appropriately, as that's what balance and skill are about, they should not look to hold back from performing basic functions like judging or downranking like we do now.

If the "cost" to sustain an appropriate attack sequence is now outpacing regen vs. being alone, you have entered a lower fun, lower effective place due to grouping which is not what a MMO should be about.

I am worried, maybe irrationally, that Ret Paladins may stare down partnering and reject it, if the aggregate effect is more downtime and less output.

There are many arguments for or against grouping or for or against a certain makeup, but a noticeable decrease in your own ability to output dps and be effective should not be one, and would be a uniquely harsh one.

Now, I have not done the maths (which could get complicated and vary wildly with your type of partner) and I have not accounted for JoW debuff procs. Also, and it really comes down to this: I have wanted my Paladin to play like they are proposing for 4 years, and I want this to be done right, and I think this is a potential crack that needs to at least be looked at.

Thanks.

 

Darkmantle

Classic problem of balancing solo versus unoptimized group versus optimized group versus 10 man raid versus 25 man raid.

I'm not sure of the exact mechanics but if there is no one to give mana to in the group does it still split it? If not then grouping with rogues, warrior and deathknights(possibly feral druids) can only increase your mana return due to buffs and things dying faster. They also happen to be some good partners for small groups. Once you get into an instance the mana return going to your healer can only be helpful with the new cost of healing. So what if it means you have to slow down a bit? Spliting with dps shamans, some hunters, balance druids, warlocks and mages could be bad though.

Personally leveling and grinding as affliction it was always more efficient for me to go solo because of the nature of how my dots worked was completely incompatible with most other classes leveling style. So have disincentives to grouping isn't anything new.

I personally hope that the effect isn't too bad and make ret paladins into emo soloers that refuse to group with anyone that has mana. The obvious change that blizzard could make would be to have it only give 20% return to you personally with the other 40% only going to new people in your party.(not very nice for paladins used to the full 60% though)

Are there any ret paladins leveling on beta that could chime in with their personal experience regarding soloing versus grouping with a mage for example?

 

Prinsesa

@Noctivagant: Based on my math here, it appears that Blizzard is balancing the numbers around the assumption that a Ret Paladin will always be splitting his mana three ways, such that we have enough mana to run a constant CS/DS/Judgement rotation with a little excess for everything else in a party, then a massive, cannot-ever-be-used-up deluge of mana if we're soloing (and assuming we get the whole 60% back).

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

DonGuapo

Source - MMO-Champion BlueTracker - [Feedback] Thunder Clap

In that post Ghostwalker is refering to both protection trees being rather large and could be reduced to help make more fun choices.

 

dakiki

I've not check the whole thread (sorry), but I thought Righteous Defense used (in live) hit rating and not spell hit rating.
Am I wrong (in live), or has it changed in beta?

 

• Chicken

It uses hit rating, but has the miss chance of a spell. The same applies to the Warrior ability Taunt, and the Druid ability Growl.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

Rheyah

You forgot organised PvP, where warriors have soloing rage in a group environment. We cannot be restricted in our personal mana regeneration by having a group around us. Our abilities consume too much mana to allow it when taken into account the active mana draining other classes can force us into, Hand usage, and cleansing.

While reducing our DPS is an option to save mana (and is something I will be doing while healing) and this does make our playstyle more warriorlike, we don't have the anti-kiting options classes like warriors and rogues have to them in order to keep pressure up. If we go out of range and start getting focus mana drained the only thing that will keep us going is our mana regeneration.

 

Nilaus

Is the glass ½ empty or ½ full?

Try to consider it a 20% mana return and it also gives 20% mana to 2 party members. That is a nice talent and I would definately still take. Now add a "if you solo you get 60% instead of 20% to prevent drinking like casters"

So please see the glass and ½ full, because it is a lovely talent for both solo and grouping

 

Noctivagant

It's a great talent. It's *the* talent.

It's so great it's really the fulcrum of how Ret works now. My previous post bordered (or maybe crossed over) into being a little dramatic, but I don't think its a stretch to call it the main Ret Paladin talent.

It basically turns on the mana-as-rage-bar mechanic that makes WotLK Paladins work. It could be a point, and they could call it "Ret Paladin On Switch" and it wouldn't be inaccurate.

Even if it goes live word for word as it is, it accomplishes this, so therefore is a great talent.

However, I just want to look at it, not as 1/2 full or 1/2 empty, but as 100% full, but with a potential crack in the glass, and I think that is in duo's and trios (or certain 5 mans) like many casual people do with friends, and we will be doing for month(s) in WotLK all of us.

Anyone who comes to this board knows that sustained dps in a raid/group or sustained uptime is about an input and and output mana number. If the output cost stays the same, but the input regen takes too much of a dip, it upsets the equation. I just want to make sure, in these discussions, that this great mechanic doesn't have a hole in it.

It's my great hope that the content patch isn't rushed to beat WAR out, and the splashing version gets properly tested across all scenarios, is all.

 

Malleus

With that in mind, what do we think as to the viability of not putting points into Light's Grace? I can see it being a workable strategy if our crit is high enough and we're casting a sufficient number of Flashes, saving HL as an "oh shit" button.

 

bellator

Problem is that in building up the tree you get to this:-

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

To get to tier 8 you need to spend 4 more points. With Conc Aura probably the no.3 aura in raids, imp loh a lot weaker than it currently is, and the remaining talents meh in terms of a pve healing build, even if HL becomes a far less frequently used heal, the talent still feels the most worthwhile choice.

 

levk

Light's grace still increases your max throughput by some 20%, still your best bet to spend 3 points on your way to infusion of light.