◊ Cathela

Based on my 5-man healing experiences in beta, I wouldn't want to be without Light's Grace in a holy build. The instant-cast stuff is very powerful and a lot of fun to use, but there are times when you just have to plant your feet and start spamming HL all over the group.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Khaelarys

I'm eager to try this out - I agree completely that this is the "fulcrum of how Ret works now.".... my concern is that it's yet ANOTHER paladin model where you need to spend mana to make mana.

In Wrath, my biggest problem as ret in Arenas/PVP - mana drain, cleanse drain, and general longevity - really, they only fixed the longevity issue, and that's just a "half full" look - Really I have no idea how well I'll be able to sustain a damage rotation when I'm spending every other global cooldown on cleanse.

Mana burn is such a stupid mechanic. Half the mana pool of level 70, and honestly I'll be out in what - 5 seconds of a PI disco priest burning me, which I can't interrupt.

 

Prinsesa

Quick question regarding Concentration Aura: Is the new pushback amount reduction system additive, such that Spiritual Focus + untalented Conc Aura still gives you complete pushback immunity?

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

◊ Cathela

Yes.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Rasputin

While the effect of imp LoH will be weaker, I would say the talent itself is stronger, since you'll actually be using LoH far more often.

 

Amera

They've pretty much built the entire Disc PvP mechanic around it, though (and new rank in LK drains fully 50% more than live). It's the cyclone for priests, and I was really hoping we'd get something similar (something threatening to do when you aren't healing that *makes* people account for you). I guess the plus side (if you raid) of not having that is PvE gear will still be our best PvP gear most likely.

 

Rustik

DPSers already have this concern. playing with hit vs crit vs exp vs haste.

There will now be a certain level of parry/dodge rating to go for, and after that you can start looking at other stats. I don't really see a problem with it. Just treat it as having a "Cap" now, like hit and expertise.

 

bellator

Are there any figures / calculations showing exactly how dodge/parry rating is suffering from diminishing returns?

The reason I ask is that I asked a druid friend who is currently 79 on the beta to test out how much dodge % he got from a dodge only item he had in two situations:-

1) Going from naked to wearing just the one item
2) Going from wearing all his gear excluding the one item to all his gear.

In the first instance his dodge % went up 0.7, in the second it went up 0.68. I don't have exact figures on what his dodge rating was in 1) and 2), but i know it was far higher in 2) and the penalty he suffered appeared to be very minor.

 

DarKNecross

You don't need a rotation for mana. One Global Cooldown every 8 seconds gets you the full benefit from JotW. One hit every 4 seconds gets you the full benefit from JoW.
I don't think Ret Paladins are going to have to struggle for every point of mana they have, hopefully it'll be easy come, easy go.

You know what would be hilarious though? Ret Paladin Druid 2v2 as the new Outlast team.

http://crimson-guild.com

 

Kigale

I'm curious, do druids get the mana from JotW if they are in bear or cat? I assume not, since it can't be burned it shouldn't be gained, but you never know.

 

Selenia

You gain at an increased rate if you pop innervate and then go into a form, so I'd assume they would gain from it.

Someone really ought to test that out though. Group with a shadowpriest and check with a mod showing the bar in forms. Should work for pallies if it does for shadowpriests.

 

◊ Cathela

At the moment I can't even make sense of the character sheet. Here's what I have wearing some tanking gear at level 77:

The defense tooltip says 253 defense rating for +64 defense skill. I'm at 443 total defense skill; the baseline for level 77 is 385 so that means I'm 58 points above the baseline (I'm not fully trained up in defense.) The tooltip says I'm getting +2.32% dodge/block/parry/miss/anti-crit, which is what you'd expect for +58 skill. So that all checks out.

The dodge tooltip says "Dodge rating of 314 adds 9.94% dodge."

The dodge chance on my character sheet is 14.74%. I can't see where that number comes from, unless the base dodge chance has been lowered to 2.48% for some reason. I'll try to do some more tests on this tomorrow.

EDIT: Two last tests I did before the server crashed. I added and removed a piece containing only dodge (Pepe's shroud from MH trash with +12 dodge rating enchant). Results from the dodge tooltip:

"Dodge rating of 314 adds 9.94% dodge" which implies 31.590% rating gives +1% dodge.

"Dodge rating of 272 gives 8.61% dodge" which implies 31.591% dodge gives +1% dodge.

Now that's pretty damn linear.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

• frmorrison

Dodge = Base Dodge (every class has a different one) + (Dodge Rating + Agility/Dodge Ratio) adds them together? + Extra Dodge from Defense + talents

14.74 = 2.48 + 9.94 + 2.32

So assuming the dodge tooltip is adding agility + dodge rating, you have base of 2.48 at 77.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Noules

I don't think the dodge tooltip adds the agility dodge - at least on live with 0 rating hovering shows 0% dodge added. Hovering over agi, however, gives me the dodge % which is the same as the total dodge (this is in holy gear).

 

◊ Cathela

I think you're right.

With no defense/avoidance/agility gear equipped at all, I have 2.47% dodge on the character sheet (seemingly despite being 6 points low on defense skill?) so that makes sense as the level 77 base.

When I add just the enchanted Pepe's the tooltip says I have 42 dodge rating for +1.33% dodge. That means 31.58 dodge rating for 1% dodge, so that fits with the other observations. But my character sheet dodge goes up to 3.84%, an increase of 1.37% dodge from the no-gear case. Is that a rounding bump or something?

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

GSH

Possibly one of the tooltips is incorrect. It's too large for a rounding bump.

 

dakiki

Meaning there is always a 1% chance to be resisted like spells, or we can cap for 0 resist?

 

Prinsesa

Currently, yes. In Wrath, no - you can gear for 17% hit and be irresistible.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Rheyah

Proportionally we're looking at something like 17% of our mana pool to cast one AE attack. We are not warriors. Our "rage" does not regenerate on melee hits. It generates exactly once every 8 seconds unless we've judged Wisdom, in which case we get additional ticks once every 4 seconds. Paladin DPS is not cheap.

So if all of a sudden in a high pressure mana draining environment two thirds of my mana regen is whisked off to proportionately lower mana members of my team (who may or may not have mana pools two and a half times the size of mine) and I get focused on/mana burned, what am I to do? You can argue there will always be mana of some kind to Judge and that should be what you plan for, but how does that mana get distributed in a pressure arena environment. If it's intelligently distributed then I can see it being rather useful. If not then it's just a massive drain on a Ret paladin's personal mana regen, which is something that we cannot afford given we now have no significant mana pool of any kind. We also do not know what our final Judgement damage is going to look like.

This isn't a whining paladin post. I'm just pointing out a potential problem as I see it. At the moment the JoTW we've been testing has been balanced based on Judgements that are doing far too much damage. At high levels of AP they can and will outdamage autoattack. When these Judgements are rebalanced into something more sane, JoTW will need another look.

 

• Chicken

The tooltip when you hover over your dodge only shows the dodge you get from dodge rating. Always has done. Try buffing yourself with Kings.

Anyway I have a feeling the people seeing odd scaling effects on various ratings are actually being fooled by a bug in WotLK: Occasionally various pieces of gear will have their ratings apply twice. But if you then swap in or out another piece of gear, sometimes the bonus rating you got through this is lost (The bug doesn't happen to all gear though). I have no idea whether this is something that only applies on the client's side, or if the server treats you as having the extra rating too, I do know it always add up after a relog.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

Malleus

Even with the armour buff diminished, there is no way 2/2 Imp LoH shouldn't be in every Holy build. LoH is losing the 100% mana drain and moving to a CD short enough that it can be used at least every other attempt. In the absolute worst case, it's a free instant-speed HL13 that restores mana. Unless there's a reason to save it for a specific point in the fight, someone should be getting laid every single time it's up.

For the other two points, either Unyielding Faith or Pure of Heart is worth keeping points in. Which you use is purely down to which fights you're on, though I favour Unyielding Faith as curses and diseases can always be cleansed by someone.

 

Pitbuller

If tank would get that buff with two talent point's they definetly would take it every time. Tank healer job is keep tank alive and co-operative with together. So if tank think this is needed then it's needed.



Edit: corrected CD.

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

Exewut

Loh is on a 5 minutes cooldown now? I thought it was 20(-4)?

 

bellator

I disagree on the imp LoH points. I do agree it should be used all the time, however when it comes to bosses, there are very few in the 16-20 minute range, which means in terms of CD the talent points give no benfit to any individual attempt. (The only difference is of course that over an evening you will have (numbers maded up) 80% of attempts with it off CD rather than 70%) The buff itself is nice, but again there is very little use for one 15 sec increased armour buff during an encounter, so LoH will be more the oh shit + mana back from glyph thing (if taken). Personally for an individual boss attempt I personally see little worth in the talent points when compared to Light's Grace.


Personally I think the Lay on Hands ability needs to be re-thought out. When it was first implemented:-

1) Paladins health was a much larger % of the tanks health than it is now
2) The size of the heal was far greater than could be obtained from holy light

Over time with levelling and gearing, paladins health as a % of the MT's has decreased, and holy light has scaled much more than the paladins health. I know the CD has been decreased, but its still a long CD, and at 80, it's an instant 12k heal for about 45% of the MT's health? With infusion of light and the top ranks holy lights, we will be seeing lots of instat 12k crits from Holy light. Lay on Hands just doesnt seem to have the power it once did.

 

Smurrf

That depends on who the person doing LoH is. I know I personally on my tank actually now have more HP than even our MT does, so no matter who it is, I know I'm topping them off. I don't forsee that changing for the foreseeable future, so long as I keep my spec as Prot.

I would argue that the ability is fine, and that if anything is to be tweaked, then it needs to be the Holy talent affecting it, not the ability itself.