bellator

For those that havent seen there has been a big blue post about buffs/debuffs here:-

MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Changes to Debuffs, Buffs, and Raid Stacking

Some of the highlights which directly effect paladins

1) It would appear JotW is being completely change so that it on a judgement up to 10 people in the raid get a buff called replenishment which causes them to regenerate 0.5% of their maximim mana each second. For a ret paladin on lets say 7k mana this equates to a buff of 35 mana per second. This is a little under half what JotW would give per person when split over 3 people.....this could provide serious mana issues for paladins.

2) This replenishment buff is also being utilised by spriests and hunters in different forms (also effecting 10 people), which suggests Blizzard wants 2 mana batteries per raid and that each mana battery can provide a maximum of 0.5% mana per second for each person. With this level of consistency one has to wonder what will happen to JoW as in its current form it would be far too powerful.

3) BoM and Battleshouts buffs will be identical and non stackable

4) Heart of the Crusader doesnt stack with Totem of Wrath (which is being changed to provide a flat spell damage buff + all enemies in its radius receive an identical (different name) to Crusader strike.

5) Sanctified retribution now longer stacks with ferocious inspriation (which will effect raid, and both will have same dmg increase)

6) Swift Retribution now no longer stacks with improved moonkin aura (which is changed to be idential to swift retribution)

7) Devotion Aura and Tree of Life dont stack (and are now the same effect)

8) Blessing of Santuary appears to be changing to a straight 3% dmg reduction blessing (non stackable with grace)

 

Fiola

Notice how Vindication doesn't show up on that buff/debuff list. Guess Blizzard never thought of it as a raid debuff.

 

kharen

Hopefully the replenishment effect will be combined with something like the old effect for the paladin's own mana, otherwise we'll be running on fumes two minutes into every fight.

No mention of judgements in general in there, either (JoW in particular). Makes me wonder where they're going with them.

 

Noctivagant

Hoo-doggie!

As I have stated, and others have agreed, this was the main ability to let us switch gears to full DPS gear and get away from the windsucking of old.

If this is the only effect from the talent, WotLK Ret just asploded. Not making a threat, more of a statement, that this would seriously effect mine and many other Ret paladins longview of the class.

Common sense would seem to dictate that this is a secondary effect, but man, we just have to get confirmation either way.

 

◊ Cathela

Link please. Everyone's talking about this post but nobody wants to link to it.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Noctivagant

 

flyingtoastr

That brings up a very good point. Ret pallys have exactly zero intellect on their gear (running with close to base mana pools) and replenishment only restores based on a percentage of total mana. That means a ret pally will see remarkably horrible mana returns from all mana restore abilities except JoW, and given the relatively high cost of abilities this change as it is right now cripples the spec in both PvE and PvP.

STR > INT conversion time maybe?

 

Noctivagant

Doesn't help the regen though, just a bigger pool.

Let's hope JoTW is either a %of base mana or damage that makes sense, PLUS replenishment.

 

Prinsesa

It does help the regen, since Replenishment works off of maximum mana.

A Mage that upgrades from T4 to T6 will see an increase in max mana from INT, therefore increasing his Replenishment gains. This holds true for Warlocks, Druids, Shaman, Priests, even Hunters.

Then you get to Ret Paladins and find that our INT will probably be the same from the moment we hit 80 up until we finish off Arthas with a Hammer of Wrath.

A STR to INT conversion would allow our Replenishment gains to scale with our DPS stat, whereas currently they would not.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Noctivagant

Ok, that is true, however, the effect would be no where near the mana regeneration mechanic that the original JotW was.

 

Smurrf

Actually, it would help the regen. As Int goes up, so does the maximum mana pool, and therefore 0.5% of that pool would also increase. If you make it scale from STR, it would allow the regen to also scale as the gearing cycle moves forward, instead of remaining static.

(edited to remove my lack of reading skills)

 

GSH

It does help the regen. Look at it in terms of mana spent per second and mana gained per second. A Strength to Int conversion does not change mana spent per second, but it does increase mana gained per second from Replenishment.

However, that might be a reason our Strength to Int conversion won't be implemented. As we gained Strength, our Net mana consumption would decrease, and at some point we'd hit zero mana consumption. But then we'd play like Rogues or Warriors with Range / Energy recharging, only being limited by cooldowns, and that might be a positive.

 

Noctivagant

People seem to miss the post where I acknowledged this =) Even with this conversion, I dont think it would approach what JoTW was doing.

If you judge for every 6 seconds talented for just 1K average, you get 600 back, or 100 mps. IDK how much people will average judge for after the balancing, is 1K low? I don't think its high certainly. At 1.5K, its 150 mps

You would have to have a 12K mana pool to equal the 1K number, or a 18K mana pool to equal the second.

The above is getting the full .6.

Our 1.5K averager when sharing with others, himself would get .2 of that 1.5K, for 50 every second. This would match a 10K mana pool.

I really wish they wouldn't have posted this w/o any blue followup. It's crickets over there atm.

 

Antmanton

Well. That was unexpectedly... comprehensive. Guess we can throw out a good deal of the theorycrafting up till now.

Speaking for myself, I'm not exactly comfortable with the idea that now two-thirds of your raid group functionally bring no utility buffs or debuffs; it seems easier now than ever to find the most minimal number of stackable-buff-bearing classes and stuff the remainder of the raid full of the combat/swords rogue equivalent for maximum DPS. A lot of Retribution-specific paladin utility seems to have gone down the drain with this change. Let's go down the list:

• Blessing of Might - Now covered by any warrior, since Commanding Shout can be covered by a warlock's Imp and Demoralizing Shout can be covered by a bear or even that same warlock who is providing Blood Pact.
• Sanctified Retribution - Now can be covered by a BM hunter's pet, although likely not consistently, so this will still be desirable.
• Swift Retribution - Now can be taken care of by Moonkins.
• Heart of the Crusader - Now covered by Elemental Shamans, who also have three other totems they can drop. There may be some significant balance problems around here.
• Judgements of the Wise - This one really worries me. Depending on how this Replenishment buff is applied to various classes, stacks up, or interacts with talent points spent, this can be a major bomb. As several other posters have already noted, this also severely gimps Retribution paladins and Enhancement shamans with small mana pools.

I think I'd be happier if they found some way of letting buffs stack up a least a little, maybe using the 100%/75%/50% diminishing returns mechanic to keep things reigned in without making people's specs feel quite so useless in utility. At first blush, though, I can't say I like how this change is panning out at all.

 

Rasputin

I don't see a huge problem with the utility. The lists of utility which is provided by other classes certainly looks scary, but keep in mind that every other class can make the exact same list. Everybody's utility can be provided by somebody else, and that's what they want. The fact that our utility can be covered by a combination of 3-4 other classes is offset by the fact that EVERY class' utility can be covered by a combination of 3-4 other classes.

 

Prinsesa

* Battle Shout is a lot more awkward to buff than Blessing of Might, given its range and duration. Point to BOM

* Currently, Battle Shout does not affect ranged AP. Given their statement regarding Rampage/LOTP and Fel Intelligence/Arcane Intellect/Divine Spirit, one may or not expect for this to change. Point to BOM

* The Replenishment change drastically lowers our mana regen, enough that Benediction may become a mandatory talent again, leaving Improved Blessing of Might out of question. In contrast, most Warriors will have nothing to else to spend points on their 3rd Fury tier besides Commanding Presence. Point to Battle Shout.

EDIT for Protection Paladins: One would expect Blessing of Sanctuary to be converted into a 3% damage reduction buff, since it was listed along with Grace. This may or may not turn out to be quite the unique raid buff for us, provided Discipline Priests remain limited in their raid viability.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

• frmorrison

From that post: It should not be assumed that one class' current performance relative to others in beta is final. Some classes (and specializations) will need to be reduced in power and some increased. Many may feel the change has more impact on class X than class Y. We will address all of those concerns via our internal testing and community feedback.


Perhaps the mana battery buffs can stack with the two, so Ret Pallies will at least have something special, bysides the consistent % damage buff.

Note Judgement of Wisdom is likely still around, so that helps with mana as well.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Rustik

Hmmm what about glyphs? I already know my ret pally will have Blessing of kings at level 80 (probably around 75). With the 3% AP glyph, I can buff kings and Ill let the warriors do Battle Shout. Works out better anyway. Then I get benediction instead of IBOM.

Or, I can glyph and talent my BoM, and grant the casters a wee bit of spellpower. They won't use Battle Shout anyway.

Granted, the amount of difference the glyphs make is small, but I don't think it nerfs our utility completely.

I know everybody is thinking about 25 mans, but remember, in a 10 man, or a 5 man, you can't necessarily get the warlock, the boomkin, the shaman, and the warrior to provide the buffs we're bringing to the group.

I like this change a lot, actually. As other people have mentioned, it means you can bring people to your group because they're your friends, and they're good players, and they have decent gear. Not because they just happen to have rolled a class with the right buffs.

How many times have you gone to a 5 man pug with someone covered in epics that didn't know WTF they were doing? Yeah, I hate that shit. (OK, this probably won't fix THAT, but still.)


EDIT: Another point- We don't know how BIG the instances will be. A lot of these totems and auras have a range limit. UNless they change it to simply affect "the raid" having redundant buffs will be handy for fights where healers and casters are very far away from the melee group, or fights where you have multiple mobs on opposite ends of the room.

 

flyingtoastr

To be fair though Battleshout has [Solarian's Sapphire] right now, meaning when 3.0 hits before Wrath it is flat out better than BoM. Just a minor nitpick, but one still the same. Battleshout is also raidwide, meaning everyone who really benefits from it (melee and tanks) will still be getting it. Hunters would need a single might, but that doesn't justify a ret pally.

 

Rasputin

This is the point of the change. They don't want any single class to be required or have a single buff/debuff which justifies their raid spot. Whether they can perform the insane balancing act of making all of the classes which provide overlapping buffs equal enough to make them interchangeable as a group is another question.

 

Antmanton

This is true, until you factor in those classes who previously brought no utility at all, and thus comparatively lost nothing. I know Blizzard has said they will be bringing everyone into line as far as DPS goes, but I can't see how they can reasonably accomplish that goal without some serious reductions elsewhere (probably off-specs) to maintain class balance. For instance, no one can be reasonably expected to accept a Retribution paladin hitting as hard as a Combat rogue while providing raid buffs and off-healing; either your DPS has to be lowered, in which case you're liable to be benched for said Combat rogue if your buffs can be duplicated by somebody else, or your off-healing and off-tanking abilities take the hit instead, compromising your flexibility and soloing capability.

Put another way, this change effectively reduces the number of "DPS/utility" slots a given hardcore raid will be willing to allocate. If your individual contributions (be it DPS, healing, or tanking) don't make up for the cost of your duplicated utility, you'll find yourself riding the bench in favor of someone who does more or wastes less. It's a razor-thin balancing act, and not one I am optimistic about being successfully solved.

[e] To respond to Rasputin's last post.

This is exactly what I'm trying to say. The goal is laudable in itself, but I can't see how to accomplish that without pissing off a whole bunch of people.

 

flyingtoastr

That also requires that every class bring exactly the same DPS. If a boomkin druid + bm hunter can bring the same utility as a ret pally and 10% more damage why would anyone in their right mind even touch a ret pally?

Class balance is going to be a nightmare. Blizzard's track record is going against them here, we're looking at Vanilia level raid stacking and pigeonholing.

 

Noctivagant

They seem to be totally ignoring the fact that people stacking also is GOOD for bringing a mixed bag of people.

Nowadays: Great, even more AP, come along!

WotLK: We have AP covered, get bent.

 

Rustik

Boomkin and BM hunter don't have the mana return of a ret pally.

But if you think about it, you could balance rogues around the fact that they include expose armor in their utility. It's also possible that the Blood frenzy second spec option will come from the rogue.

If you've got a bear tank, sunder is annoying for a dps warrior to keep up, as it nerfs him. As far as I'm aware, expose armor is not an impressive nerf to rogue dps, though please correct me if I am wrong. Rogues are the one class I know practically nothing about.

 

flyingtoastr

Given that you can really only stack 2 mana restoring classes now (<20 people in a raid will be using mana) you can fill the role of mana restorer from other classes. Yes it's a nice "unique" buff, but its very dependant on group comp.

Improved Expose Armor is better than Sunder by a fairly large margin, the only reason it doesn't get used is because of the TPS loss for a warrior tank by not being able to use Sunder/Devastate (iirc). The loss would be 5 combo points though would go towards a refresh of rupture or an Evis depending on how quickly you generate combo points. I'm not sure of the DPS loss, you're most likely correct that it is less than that of a warrior having to dump rage and threat on sunders.