Rustik

As far as the "Expose armor is better" bit, the very beginning of the post stated that with exceptions, most of the buffs would have the same values. Whether they will keep sunder/expose as an exception is yet to be seen.

 

flyingtoastr

Oh naturally, but at the moment Expose Armor is flat out better than Sunder. They did say that certain buffs will be better than others (using AI/DS over Fel Intel as the example) so for all we know it could stay this way. Once the next push comes out we'll see how things turn out.

 

Rustik

I rather hope they make them the same values. Otherwise, what with any tank being capable of MTing, who would want a warrior tank, ever? They REQUIRE sunder armor to tank effectively. Nuts to that, bring a rogue (or a hunter with an exotic pet) and let the pally/druid/DK tank.

OK, I realize that this is the pally channel, so that's a blasphemous implecation, but it's true! :P

 

EvadDeWahr

I think considering the casualisation (I know there is no such word) of WoW the change will work well for more casual groups, especially 5 and 10 person groups.

For Hardcore groups this change will bite Blizz. So now to cover all the buff and debuff slots will require a smaller number of raiders. the other slots will be for specialist DPS and Healer slots. This will make new content easier to mini/max on for hardcore groups.

So at some time in the future they will need to reduce the effect of buff/debuffs or rethink the whole thing, because to rebalance around Hardcore groups will cripple the more casual ones.

But I can see that it will follow TBC. Originally balance around Hardcore groups (because they are the ones testing the new content in the main anyway) then once the more casual groups start getting to it, rebalance the instance (read nerf)

 

tarja

If the 3 "mana battery" abilities are:

Vampiric Touch: Grants Replenishment mana regeneration buff to up to 10 raid members on dealing damage.
Hunting Party: Grants Replenishment mana regeneration buff to up to 10 raid members on specified shots.
Judgements of the Wise: Grants Replenishment mana regeneration buff to up to 10 raid members on Judging.

Then don't Shadowpriests and Hunters give the Replenishment buff far more often than Ret Paladins (and thus give a much higher effective mana regen)? Unless there's a hidden cooldown on how often the priest/hunter/paladin can provide Replenishment, it seems like 1 shadowpriest could easily keep the buff up on the entire raid without needing a Ret Paladin

 

Prinsesa

I don't get what you're saying Tarja: Even if the Shadow Priest and Surv Hunter proc the Replenishment more often, all that's doing is constantly reassigning the 10 buffs more often.

The only time a Ret Paladin is "losing out" would be if someone get Replenished to full mana and it doesn't get reassigned until 6.5-1.5 seconds later when the Paladin Judges again.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

flyingtoastr

Hunting Party is actually (right now) the weakest in that it can only proc off critical shots and (last I checked) has an internal cooldown.

VT's wording presents a major problem. It says "when it deals damage". VT deals damage every 3 seconds. Does this mean it shoots out 10 new Replenishments every 3 seconds? If that is the case couldn't a single VT get Replenishment on an entire raid in 6 seconds, thus making Ret Paladins and Survival Hunters worthless? Or is the ability capped at only putting out 10 Replenishments at a time? Is Judgement capped at 10 at a time as well, meaning you will have at least an effective cooldown on your Replenishments of 16 seconds?

That means, pretending Replenishment has a 10 second duration (but it could be anything about 8 seconds):
T=0 Judgement, Replenishment x10 goes out
T=8 Judgement, can't do any more because 10 are out
T=10 Replenishments run out
T=16 Judgement, Replenishment x10 goes out

Actually if this is how it works you pretty much can't take any points in Improved Judgement without costing your raid some regen. Good fix?

These changes seem extrememly rushed without much thought for balance and I sincerely hope we have some nice GC posts tomorrow to clear stuff up.

 

tarja

Well if VT sends out 10 new Replenishment buffs every 3 seconds, then 1 Shadowpriest could very easily cover the entire raid with the buff at 100% uptime (as flyingtoastr said).

But I guess if one person can only provide 10 total Replenishments at once, or if there's a hidden cooldown, then a 2nd "mana battery class" would be needed.

 

Prinsesa

It makes much more sense to assume that:
Replenishment is capped at 10 targets per mana-battery character

Each tick of VT, each proc of Hunting Party and each cast of Judgement will grant an x second (they never said how long) Replenishment buff.

Subsequent procs of Replenishment will cause the game to re-evaluate who needs mana the most and reassign Replenishments as appropriate and as limited by the 10-target cap

Having Replenishment currently ticking on people will not lock you out of recasting VT, or shooting Hunting Party's shots, or recasting Judgement early.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Anedris

My guess is they'll simply make it so that one mana battery class can keep replenishment up on 10 people. Therefore a 25-person raid needs two mana batteries for its mana needs.

On the note of "few utility/buff slots," I'm pretty sure their intent is to make there be nothing but utility/buff slots. As in, everyone does about the same DPS and everyone brings a buff (they mentioned making rogue poisons into some kind of raid debuff, for example). The buffing classes don't get cut out of the loop because there are no pure DPS classes to cut them out of that loop - if a retadin does 5% less damage than a rogue (but brings some group healing which the rogue doesn't), it won't matter if all of the retadin's utility is superfluous - you'll take the better player (or if you have two equally skilled players you'll choose based on whether you need every drop of DPS or whether the extra group healing could make a difference - i.e., rogue for Brut, retadin for Twins or M'uru).

 

◊ Cathela

I think I agree with this. Even if it was only, say, a two-buff limit at 100%/50%.

I'm biased here, but I guess one of the things I've enjoyed about the raiding game is the optimization puzzle, and that part of the game is going to be greatly simplified with this change. I can understand why they did it; it makes life easier for more casual guilds, and it makes it possible to tune 10-man content much more tightly.

But still, it would be nice if bringing a paladin for BoM and a warrior for BS was worth more than bringing either one alone, even if only by a factor of 1.5 rather than 2.

EDIT: And yes, they absolutely need to maintain some kind of damage-based personal mana return for Ret. That's really one of the coolest and most interesting new wrinkles to the talent trees.

EDIT AGAIN: And if they're indeed going to leave BoSanct in the game, then I really really really hope they make either BoSanct or BoK baseline. Having two talented blessings in the same tree is not a good design.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

bathoz

My main issue with replenishment is that it doesn't feel big enough. 4% mana regened every 8 seconds. Judgements are 5% base mana(?) DS/CS are going to waste your mana so fast. (Nevermind soloing, which is going to be back to pre-BC mage land).

A second problem just occured to me. Replenishment buffs are almost certainly going to be assigned on a percentage basis. The 10 people with the lowest mana percentage will get the buffs. Nevermind the gaming that could go on my mages/locks to make sure they are always getting a buff (in a situation where, I don't know, there's only one mana battery up). The issue is that because our mana pool is so incredibly shallow, those percentages are going to shift around very quickly. More importantly, we're going to have a higher "maintenance" average mana pool than other classes, just as a buffer against totally running out of mana (as we need mana to make mana).

PS. No worries, we still are the only class with "unique" utility. Judgements. So no panicking. (Other than the above panicking).

 

Rheyah

I think you might be lost in a cloud of theorycraft.

There are fundamental differences between a shadowpriest, a hunter and a retribution paladin that go beyond merely buffs, namely how and where they do damage. Besides their similar buffs, the three classes could not be more different. They also mentioned you wanted two (up to 10 members) of each mana regeneration class which gives Ret pallies, shadow priests and survival hunters two spots to contend for.

It really isn't a raid stacking problem. What this does is for the most part normalise the performance a class can expect in a raid with what a class can expect in a group. Numerous buffs that stacked and have huge effects on class performance no longer do so. While each spec does bring certain things, each spec also brings multiple DIFFERENT things to the raid. It'll give theorycrafting raid leaders a real headache which is something that I'm happy for.

 

Spiry

HP has no internal cooldown. It also procs off steady shot crits, which in a SV build will crit a LOT. The build is centred around critting and buffs from crits. From what I can see of all this is that JotW is the weakest, only returning mana every 8 seconds. For a SV hunter to only crit once every 8 seconds would be the coldest of cold streaks.

As far as VT, has it been changed so that only VT returns mana, or does it keep its current functionality whereby any damage done by the spriest during the VT debuff time will restore mana?

 

Stardusty

I suspect the Replenishment buff will 'reassign' itself everytime Judgement is cast, ie:
T=0 Judgement, Replenishment x10 goes out
T=8 Judgement, Replenishment on current targets end, Replenishment x10 goes out.
Repeat ad nauseum.

I find it a shame though that there has been no news of our own personal mana regen. Judgements of the Wise in its current incarnation made soloing fun. Perhaps if it is baked into Improved Judgement instead (with % tweaks) and only returns mana to the paladin? That way all 3 specs can spec for it, and gives Holy a good reason to judge every GCD in addition to spell haste, mana regen for Prot in offtanking situations like Gruul/Void Reaver and mana regen for hungry Ret abilities.

 

ficelle666

For the overall utility of an extra ret paladin in raid who is taking the spot of a rogue im not worried at all...

Yes rogue do more dps, but and extra Ret paly brings : 1 more blessing, DS healing around him, another judgment on the boss, spot heal and powerfull defence abilities. (Offtanking on trash and/or adds)

The thing that is really a problem is Judgement of the wize, they MUST keep a part of self mana regen with this cause the mana battrie mechanic is so weak for ret paladin right now....


Still we have judgment of wisdom....but with the increase of spell cost we need JotW to give us a nice part of mana (10-15% of our dmg would already be nice....)

Cant wait to see if JotW still has its punch...

 

tayedaen

This is only true from the point of an ret pala.

Since I am playing prot I would prefer to have all spell costs lowered to compensate for the loss of personal mana regeneration.

This would not only help ret palas, but would make prot leveling easier.
And for balancing in raid it would make no difference, since you cannot have more then a 100% full mana bar anyway.

 

Argavaine

WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Changes to Debuffs, Buffs, and Raid Stacking

*I have no information at hand right now, but I suspect the new effects of these buffs will overwrite the old ones. However, until we have some firm information that is just my supposition unfortunately. *


If this is true we would get 25mana/tick with 5k mana at level 80 and it is hardly enough to support judgment use in order to get this mana. We even wouldn`t be able to use CS or any other ability. I can`t beleave that they keep it like this.

I think they will keep old JOTW after some testing.

 

levk

I can see why they wanted to decouple mana returns from damage. But the single replenishment buff looks pretty weak, maybe they stack from different players and/or roll like the sheath HoT.

JotW is going to move to deeper ret, now that it's decoupled from damage a holy picking it up will get the same return to the raid as a ret picking it up. They move JotW out of reach and all of a sudden sheath build lost a lot of its prowess. And it's already lost some with BoM not stacking with BS.

Without a doubt these changes are huge, they took two steps back as far as tuning every class ready for live is concerned, but they felt this was a necessary measure. And you can see toastr's point and proof. If they screw up on this you won't get to raid.

 

flyingtoastr

It is a major balance problem.

They have to tune the classes very tightly or you just flat out won't see some of them represented in raids. It is still an easy fact that if someone else can cover your utility and bring more DPS than you 99% of decent guilds will bench you. It happens right now with Holy Paladins (last night we got our first M'uru kill; everyone had 4-5 pally buffs but only 2 pallys were inside the instance for the kill) and Mages (once you have AI and food why bring a mage when a warlock does 15% more damage?). Unless they want a repeat of this they have to tune the outputs of the classes to incredibly close margins.

That then presents a major problem in their other pet project, arenas. If a hybrid (say a Boomkin) can dish out DPS as close to or as good as a traditionally "pure" class and bring other utilities (read: healing) why would you even touch that pure class? So they'll have to somehow tune the pure classes' CC or something up so it outweighs the loss of that extra healing you could have had. That has ramifications in small group content though where you have a repeat of "LFM DPS for MrT, need 3 Mages".

Call me a pessimist, but do you really think any human being is capable of juggling that?

 

SirM

I really hate it, when guilds use paladins as buffbots. I think it's an exploit to have more paladin blessings than actually paladins in the instance and I really really hope blizzard gets around this somehow.

I would say if you want a specific buff from a class, let it be a blessing or improved divine spirit than you should have this class in the instance and not sitting out in grp 6 outside the instance. A holy paladin may be a weaker healer than the other healing classes, but his blessing is there to compensate for this and it's really unfair when you just want one thing (the blessing) without the other thin (the paladin as healer).

My solution for this problem would be to simply reduce the raidsize to 25. I mean the only thing where 40 man matters at the moment is av and blizzard can surely rebalance this.

 

nevinera

It's worse than that - they don't just need to carefully balance dps among classes, they need to do it at *most or all gear levels*.

Dps isn't actually a number, it's a rough function of sum iLevel -- if you took every class in sunwell gear, and balanced them with a multiplier, pre-kara druids would out-dps pre-kara warriors by a factor of two.

 

Palados

Quite an elegant solution. Though it will add additional pain for leaders to run the DKP system.

All in all, I guess only people in really top 0.01% of the guilds will suffer from the change. I.e. guilds where you have access to 110% performing members of any class in any desired quantity. In an average guild, raid stacking won't be viable anymore, because class that is 10% better on a paper played by average player will have actually lower DPS than good performing player of a 'support' class. I actually like those changes. You won't cancel raids anymore because 1-2 key players didn't show up (was very usual for pre-nerf M'uru and some other bosses).

 

Fiola

5% base mana should be a bit less than 4% total mana. At a minimum, the talent would return the cost of Judging over 8 seconds (assuming it gives you the buff*), which is about what it does on Live, minus the group benefit. The mana costs to use the talent will be lower than Live too, since you only need to Judge every 8 seconds instead of Seal + Judge. (using the talent goes from net mana loss to net mana gain)


For raiding, CS's mana cost should be covered by JoW**, and there will be group mana buffs/SA from AE damage. For solo, the JoW buff means we're never going to have the issues we have on live. (Passively applied scaling JoW freely tacked onto damage vs. the opportunity cost of mana + potential damage for Seal + Judge) PvP, we'll have to balance JoJ with JoW, and will also deal with mana burn; that's the most "vulnerable" area.


That said, I would prefer to see some of the original JotW concept stay in the talent (20% of damage as mana + Replenishment?). Otherwise, the class could use a way to scale Int from warrior gear.



edit:
*Assumption that you'll get the buff seems to be solid - You'll definitely get it in 5/10mans. In 25 mans, if we get 2 mana batteries, you have a 20 out of 25 chance to get the buff, after you subtract the DKs, rogues, warriors, and feral form druids.

** CS costs 8% of base mana. JoW returns 9% of AP + SP. (or 11.7% of AP w/ SoL) Your AP is going to be >> base mana, making each JoW proc > CS mana cost. At the very worst, you'll proc JoW every 6 seconds, so CS mana cost will be completely covered by JoW if it is up. (And JoW will be up whenever you want to judge it)

 

• Avitus

Sorry to have to hammer at this once more, but now more than ever, here's what this all boils down to (for ret):

Personal DPS

While their goal to have raid composition become more "player skill centric" rather than "buff/debuff" centric is admirable, Blizzard have created a balancing nightmare. Raids will get by with the optimum minimum of buffing classes then fill the rest with pure DPS. Even the buffing classes will be filtered amongst themselves by personal DPS potential.

This change pretty much requires that personal DPS of most classes becomes virtually identical or you're looking at a lot of grief. Personal DPS is now more important than ever.


Regarding JotW, I can't say much more than to echo what others here have said. This is a pretty big personal regen hit. I can only hope they are aware of this and we get some OTHER ability (hell we have the points to spare as ret) for personal mana regen to truly replace Sanctified Jugement, a secondary effect to CS comes to mind.