Okay, in that case (warrior/druid) I would agree that's way too much variation. What I'm saying is that if the ultimate top-gear balance has a druid doing 70% of warrior dps, and a druid at the kara level can do 80% of warrior dps, I don't think that's a large enough swing to be worried about.
I absolutely agree they'll keep all levels of progression in mind for balance, and they should, because every level of progression is "endgame" to somebody. What I'm saying though is that balancing things at the non-peak gear levels doesn't need to be as precise; it needs to be good enough that every class is viable, but it doesn't need to be so tight as to make stacking unfeasible, because stacking isn't as necessary at that level.
(explanation)
Again, as I said above, I'm not disagreeing that balance matters at all play levels; it does very much, because the game is supposed to be fun as you progress through it, not just at the end, and also because every play level is endgame to someone. What I'm saying though is that there's a lot more "wiggle room" at the lower progression levels and so small-to-medium variations in class performance as you progress aren't a big deal, so long as they leave everyone viable and useful at every level.
That was well explained; I apologize for misunderstanding the distinction between the types of difficulty you were speaking of.
I agree that 70%-80% wouldn't be a big deal, and 100% vs 110% might not either.
I just meant that they have to actually balance things at more than one level of gear at the same time, which isn't as easy,
if they want to do it elegantly.
[EDIT: Regarding DPS plate -> Holy Conversions).
Restokins and Smite priests pop the hell out of me. I don't see how we can be worried about our auto-attack dps system being too high. Not even counting our CC vs their CC.
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr
At level 80 using only CS, DS and Judgement on cooldown you're using ~851 Mp5. Assuming base mana is still around 4300 a fully raid buffed ret pally will have roughly 6000 mana. That means Replenishment is going to give a total of 150 Mp5. That means SA regen and JoW have to make up more than 700 Mp5 for ret pallys to break even doing a bare minimum cycle. It wouldn't be "nice" to get the blue rage bar back from JotW, it is flat out required or ret is not a sustainable spec.
Level 80 Base Stats (for a Blood Elf, I imagine the other races will be nearly identical)
Found these base stats on the WotlK forum, for a Blood Knight.
5624 Health
5644 Mana
147 Strength
92 Agility
140 Stamina
102 Intellect
104 Spirit Source
Either way, unbuffed we're looking at 10 seconds to make back the Judgement cost using Replenishment. Which means Judgement is self sufficient without Improved Judgements - it probably breaks even with the Mana regeneration of a Raid Buff.
I just don't see me being able to keep wisdom up on most arena teams - So that means I have to use BoW, plus try to keep Wisdom up on my kill target. Between kill switches, dispels, and being off of my target after a kite - just doesn't really look good for me. Sure in PVE I'll have the best of every world. But this static mana generation is horribly week for a class that is itemized for 0 int.
By the way, the base mana in those figures - is that 5644 listed or you subtract 102 base intellect from that (that's 4114)
EDIT: I for one think it's totally fine to trade gcd for mana leaving the self only component on JotW, mana isn't good of a game mechanic anyway, but that might not be the game developers want.
As an editorial aside, its a bit frustrating and odd that the announcement of one of the biggest mechanics changes in WoW history effecting every class and almost anyone who raids in any way, has been followed up by complete silence by all blue.
I tried to search if anyone has already written about this question, to no success. If you can point me to the proper thread instead that would work.
but just in case
what do you think about the possible wotlk changes to professions will have on Holy paladins? (pvp and raiding)
as far as raiding goes
Will alchemy now be useful because of potion sickness? (because of trinket)
and leather-working less useful because of drums?
and in pvp
will enchanting be less useful cause of a waste of bop only effects on wands.
in either case, i see inscription possibly becoming more useful, perhaps blacksmithing with more healing plate gear,
engineering? herbalism?
anyone have any ideas?
using the current available knowledge of how wotlk might turn out... which professions would you take as a holy paladin for expansion.
Regarding the last few posts on stat-conversion/mana-regen/ret:
I'm totally on board with an AP->SP conversion becoming baseline for the class; if anyone new to the thread wants to read more about this, Antmaton and I laid out the argument a few pages back (and other people offered their thoughts on it as well). I don't think it should be taken as far as unifying plate healing gear with plate dps gear, but I do think it could enable paladin healing gear to take on a much more interesting look (combined str and SP).
As far as Ret having a convert-to-int talent, to the extent that it's supposed to address Ret's mana issues, I'd much rather see JotW keep some portion of it's self-mana-regen property. For one thing, as I've said before, it's goddamn cool and fun. For another, while stat conversions are neat, I don't think you want to go overboard with them; at some point you're just making things harder for the more casual players. Generally I think if you're trying use more than one stat conversion per class/spec, you're probably better off just trying something else entirely,
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
Professions are only halfway done, it's too early to decide. I think with things like blacksmithing and leatherworking it will depend on if there will be a starter BoP healing set to help out in the beginning. One thing for sure, even if the alchemy trinket gets updated - which I doubt - the potion effect will hardly be useful. It's less than the LoH glyph per fight. Look at mixology for alchemy perks.
There was some discussion about WotLK professions in the Ret DPS thread. It focused on the DPS aspects, but you might find the list useful as a starting point.
If you are executing a CS --> Judge --> DS priority cycle you'll end up with 6 second Crusader Strikes, 9 second Judgements, and 12 second Divine Storms. That results in a total mana consumption of 147 mana per second. In best in slot Sunwell gear - at level 80 - I figure you'll have around a healthy 3500 raid buffed AP (and consequently 1050 SP), and around 7600 mana.
Judgements of the Wise will restore 38 mana per second. Judgement of Wisdom will restore a minimum of 410 mana per strike, which triggered every 6 seconds (as a worst case scenario) will restore 69 mana per second. That leaves you with a total mana consumption of 40 mana per second, meaning it'll take you 3 minutes and 10 seconds to run completely try. Practically you'll not last quite as long because of the high mana cost of Divine Storm, of course.
From what I'm seeing, Sunwell gear is roughly equivalent to entry level raid gear in WotLK. So let's figure out the scaling factor. We'll assume that your mana pool remains static. Solving a pretty simple equation for AP vs. mana return means that once you reach ~5500 AP you'll effectively "go infinite" and restore your own mana as fast as you consume it, without the use of outside means like mana potions.
I don't know enough Math Fu to determine the actual proc rate of Judgement of Wisdom, so I just assumed it as being as bad as possible. I suspect it might be slightly more favorable than I assumed, but if somebody could prove me wrong (or right) that'd be swell. I really don't think things are quite as doom-and-gloom for Retribution mana consumption as we're predicting, though. We might struggle a bit in the first set of raid zones, but I imagine we're going to be pretty strong in later tiers.
Don't forget that Seals need to be refreshed every 2 minutes and cost 576 mana (rounded up), which introduces an additional 24 mp5 to the consumption rate.
If you are executing a CS --> Judge --> DS priority cycle you'll end up with 6 second Crusader Strikes, 9 second Judgements, and 12 second Divine Storms. That results in a total mana consumption of 147 mana per second. In best in slot Sunwell gear - at level 80 - I figure you'll have around a healthy 3500 raid buffed AP (and consequently 1050 SP), and around 7600 mana.
Judgements of the Wise will restore 38 mana per second. Judgement of Wisdom will restore a minimum of 410 mana per strike, which triggered every 6 seconds (as a worst case scenario) will restore 69 mana per second. That leaves you with a total mana consumption of 40 mana per second, meaning it'll take you 3 minutes and 10 seconds to run completely try. Practically you'll not last quite as long because of the high mana cost of Divine Storm, of course.
From what I'm seeing, Sunwell gear is roughly equivalent to entry level raid gear in WotLK. So let's figure out the scaling factor. We'll assume that your mana pool remains static. Solving a pretty simple equation for AP vs. mana return means that once you reach ~5500 AP you'll effectively "go infinite" and restore your own mana as fast as you consume it, without the use of outside means like mana potions.
I don't know enough Math Fu to determine the actual proc rate of Judgement of Wisdom, so I just assumed it as being as bad as possible. I suspect it might be slightly more favorable than I assumed, but if somebody could prove me wrong (or right) that'd be swell. I really don't think things are quite as doom-and-gloom for Retribution mana consumption as we're predicting, though. We might struggle a bit in the first set of raid zones, but I imagine we're going to be pretty strong in later tiers.
If I throw even one heal that's 1194 mana, or 8 seconds of regeneration - I admit I'm more pessimistic than devil's advocate, but best case raid mana generation is what I have now - it doesn't mean squat in pvp - I don't use mana potions now in raids - but then, I'm OOM in pvp somewhere between 20 seconds and 4 minutes. I just don't see me keeping up BoW or JoW consistently in arenas. Which puts me back to.... ?
If you are executing a CS --> Judge --> DS priority cycle you'll end up with 6 second Crusader Strikes, 9 second Judgements, and 12 second Divine Storms. That results in a total mana consumption of 147 mana per second. In best in slot Sunwell gear - at level 80 - I figure you'll have around a healthy 3500 raid buffed AP (and consequently 1050 SP), and around 7600 mana.
Judgements of the Wise will restore 38 mana per second. Judgement of Wisdom will restore a minimum of 410 mana per strike, which triggered every 6 seconds (as a worst case scenario) will restore 69 mana per second. That leaves you with a total mana consumption of 40 mana per second, meaning it'll take you 3 minutes and 10 seconds to run completely try. Practically you'll not last quite as long because of the high mana cost of Divine Storm, of course.
From what I'm seeing, Sunwell gear is roughly equivalent to entry level raid gear in WotLK. So let's figure out the scaling factor. We'll assume that your mana pool remains static. Solving a pretty simple equation for AP vs. mana return means that once you reach ~5500 AP you'll effectively "go infinite" and restore your own mana as fast as you consume it, without the use of outside means like mana potions.
I don't know enough Math Fu to determine the actual proc rate of Judgement of Wisdom, so I just assumed it as being as bad as possible. I suspect it might be slightly more favorable than I assumed, but if somebody could prove me wrong (or right) that'd be swell. I really don't think things are quite as doom-and-gloom for Retribution mana consumption as we're predicting, though. We might struggle a bit in the first set of raid zones, but I imagine we're going to be pretty strong in later tiers.
How did you arrive at the 7600 mana figure?
AI, Kings, GotW. I have to be missing something here.
Don't forget that Seals need to be refreshed every 2 minutes and cost 576 mana (rounded up), which introduces an additional 24 mp5 to the consumption rate.
You're right, I did forget that. But then again I also forgot about Blessing of Wisdom - which we'll almost assuredly have now that Battle Shout supplants Blessing of Might - which adds ~22 mana per second talented. Redoing my above calculations:
152 mana consumed per second by the cycle
- 38 mana restored per second by Judgements of the Wise
- 22 mana restored per second by Blessing of Wisdom
- 69 mana restores per second by Judgement of Wisdom
= 23 net mana consumed per second, which makes the point of infinite mana ~4700 AP.
As for PvP, well, I guess we'll see what happens. I pretty much universally loathe PvP other than as a vehicle to acquire effortless epics, so I don't feel I'd be well qualified to comment on the issue.
Originally Posted by zenos
How did you arrive at the 7600 mana figure?
Basic math.
4114 base mana
102 intellect base
60 intellect from AI
52 intellect from iMotW
10% from Blessing of Kings
You're right, I did forget that. But then again I also forgot about Blessing of Wisdom - which we'll almost assuredly have now that Battle Shout supplants Blessing of Might - which adds ~22 mana per second talented. Redoing my above calculations:
152 mana consumed per second by the cycle
- 38 mana restored per second by Judgements of the Wise
- 22 mana restored per second by Blessing of Wisdom
- 69 mana restores per second by Judgement of Wisdom
= 23 net mana consumed per second, which makes the point of infinite mana ~4700 AP.
As for PvP, well, I guess we'll see what happens.
Basic math.
4114 base mana
102 intellect base
60 intellect from AI
52 intellect from iMotW
10% from Blessing of Kings
Total of 7645 mana.
Im coming up with 6468, which is why i asked. Apparently im calculating it wrong.
Is anyone able to take a crack at prot pally mana consumption now that we have costs for spells at 80 and what replenishment will do for us? A guess as to how much JoW would return if we have to put it up ourselves would be good too since we don't all have a ret pally we can count on. I don't really know enough about the new skills to do it but I would like to see how much replenishment is going to hurt since I have a pimp spriest now.
Blizzard specifically stated they wanted to fix Ret mana issues in WotLK. The fact that JotW was both the fix AND the raid mana-regen mechanic means that altering the latter function has (temporarily we should assume) broken the former. I´m confident that a new method of self mana restoration will be implemented for Ret. This is still beta!
The target becomes a Beacon of Light to all targets within a 40 yard radius. Any heals you cast on those targets will also heal the Beacon for 100% of the amount healed.
It still only lets us heal a maximum of 2 targets at a time, but it's sorta a cool mechanic. Meh.
I concur with the "meh" thought. The big thing is that it will let you continue your tank-healing duties while tossing out raid heals, but still iffy on implementation. I liked the thought of the targetted AoE HoT better, truth be told.
To teach and to learn, to laugh and make others laugh. This is my purpose, and any day in which I don't wasn't worth the time it took to get through.
I concur with the "meh" thought. The big thing is that it will let you continue your tank-healing duties while tossing out raid heals, but still iffy on implementation. I liked the thought of the targetted AoE HoT better, truth be told.
The exact problem is that you're still only hitting one raid member at a time. The reason people don't have pallys raid healing right now is because you are almost never in a situation where only one person is taking damage. To keep people alive you want to hit as many as possible as quickly as possible. All this really does it let us keep 2 people alive at a time instead of one, still leaving us in the precarious position as the worst AoE healer by a massive margin.
Of course it could also be abused to a pretty obscene degree on fights where you have 2 tanks (full throughput on both tanks would be really fun actually) but that is extremely gimicky and not worthy of a tree-capping talent.
So yeah, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say this change actually made deep holy worse unless there is a massive change in raid encounter design.
Originally Posted by SanSul
I apologize if this is old information.
Blessing of Sancturary
-3% damage taken. blocks, parries and dodges generate 10rage, 20runic power, 2% maximum mana
On MMO-Champion's tree i detected the following changes:
In Holy:
Beacon as flyingtoastr said. Without the duration it seems cool, put the buff in one tank and spam the other. Keep 2 tanks alive for the price of 1 Holy Pala
In Prot:
Toughness changed, reducing 50% of slowing efects.
Blessing of Sancturary
-3% damage taken. blocks, parries and dodges generate 10rage, 20runic power, 2% maximum mana
Shield Specilization
30% block value increase now
As SanSul mencioned. BoS maybe just get Prot Pala a reserved place in raids.
In Retri:
Improved BoM got changed to 25%. I don't get it... after buffing so it gets equals to Battle Shout it gets nerfed?
Judgments of the Wise changed to "just" giving the regeneration buff
08/29/08, 3:52 PM
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