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Old 08/06/08, 9:31 PM   #1666
 frmorrison
Protector
 
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Ashstrike
Human Paladin
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by mclem View Post
As an aside, the more I look at Aura Mastery these days, the more I think "That's a glyph".
Shaman recently got all totems to 30 yards (saving a talent point), so Auras may get that for "free" or as a minor glyph (I rather get it free).

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Old 08/06/08, 10:15 PM   #1667
flyingtoastr
Bald Bull
 
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Human Paladin
 
Draka
Originally Posted by Unir View Post
I have to agree with Denogran - SoW does not appear to be a viable mana return mechanic for Holies in many encounters seen so far pre-BC or post, and less so on the encounters where you need it most.
You're still looking along the lines of "if it isn't optimal to stand in melee I won't!". Again, think outside the box. Just because a fight isn't exactly melee friendly doesn't mean you can't stand with the melee group. Smart melee positioning on fights where it is "suboptimal" (like Naj'entus) allows you to get 9 melee players in with splashes only hitting a max of 3 at a time. If you don't screw up your OT healing on Supremus there is no reason not to be standing on top of him and his obnoxiously large hitbox. Hell on Archimonde we used to have a resto druid stand with the melee for decursing if they got bursted, I don't see why a Holy Pally couldn't do the same thing.

Yeah it isn't "optimal". But it doesn't mean you can't do it.

And remember that Chain casting downranked Holy Lights (Brut) is a thing of the past. With the massive downranking penalties in effect it is pretty doubtful you'll use anything except HS/FoL unless the tank really needs it. I'm positive Blizzard will balance around that.

E: Now that I think of it, on those fights where you just can't afford to take time to swing your weapon there's always good old Divine Plea to get you some mana.

Last edited by flyingtoastr : 08/06/08 at 10:21 PM.

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Old 08/06/08, 11:56 PM   #1668
Ragnor
King Hippo
 
Human Paladin
 
Blackrock
People will always min/max their raids in order to get stuff done faster, wipe less etc etc. You can have 2 healers that heal part time and do crappy dps part time or you can replace the 2 healers with 1 dedicated healer, 1 dedicated dps.

It's a pretty safe bet which is going to be higher raid dps and less deaths due to the healer not losing focus/concentration when changing from dps'ing to healing constantly.

Unless they do something really really radical with boss encounters where tanks take much less frequent spike damage nothing is changing imo.

The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.

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Old 08/07/08, 12:14 AM   #1669
Unir
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Fenris
I agree with Ragnor. "Suboptimal" in the raid setting means "we're bringing a druid instead."

If a raid leader is faced with bringing a subpar dps /healer distracted with doing 'suboptimal' other things and a full-on healer, the full-on healer will get brought every time.

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Old 08/07/08, 12:14 AM   #1670
flyingtoastr
Bald Bull
 
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Human Paladin
 
Draka
Originally Posted by Ragnor View Post
It's a pretty safe bet which is going to be higher raid dps and less deaths due to the healer not losing focus/concentration when changing from dps'ing to healing constantly.

Unless they do something really really radical with boss encounters where tanks take much less frequent spike damage nothing is changing imo.
Except priests do exactly what pallys might (sit on a free/instant heal to regen as much as possible) right now. Yes, in your Sunwell raids (assuming your priests don't suck) you have a couple healers not landing a heal for 5-8 seconds often enough and it works fine. Seriously, I can not possibly understand why these concepts are so foriegn to people. Not all healing is "spam heal 1 x10000", subtle nuances like this is what separate a good healer from a great healer.

And again, if you don't like "risking a death" by regening with JoW just pop Divine Plea.

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Old 08/07/08, 12:44 AM   #1671
Kigale
Piston Honda
 
Orc Hunter
 
Fenris
I'm with Toastr here. Just because something is not done now doesn't mean it can't be done in the future. Casts delaying the swing timer instead of resetting it is a very important change in this discussion.

Think about this situation:

Your HS crits, while you wait on the GCD you get one melee swing. You use the instant HL and get another melee swing. Now with a fast enough weapon and enough haste (remember, haste is one stat now) you may be able to get 3 swings in during these 2 GCDs without a drop in HPS. This scenario can occur as often as every 6 seconds (the HS CD). As Toastr said, Priests sit on Clearcast procs to regen mana oo5sr, why is that different than sitting on an instant HL to get an extra melee swing or 2?

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Old 08/07/08, 12:55 AM   #1672
Unir
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Fenris
To my mind if Blizzard really intended such a dramatic change in playstyle for Holy healers they would have provided more "on-hit" tools to heal with, remember that SoW/JoW is not new - that mechanic has been there since the beginning and has been largely passed on in top-end raid settings for good reason.

What we see Blizzard showing us is actually the opposite, the top end Holy tree includes a talent to extend judging to thirty yards range, a heal which appears to be put to good use on the tank and nearby melee with a 40 yard range, and all of our other abilities remain 40 yards ranged as well, including the new Sacred Shield being added - and the majority (if not all) of the "on-hit" or melee abilities went to ret paladins and prot paladins.

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Old 08/07/08, 1:05 AM   #1673
flyingtoastr
Bald Bull
 
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Human Paladin
 
Draka
Originally Posted by Unir View Post
TWhat we see Blizzard showing us is actually the opposite, the top end Holy tree includes a talent to extend judging to thirty yards range, a heal which appears to be put to good use on the tank and nearby melee with a 40 yard range, and all of our other abilities remain 40 yards ranged as well, including the new Sacred Shield being added - and the majority (if not all) of the "on-hit" or melee abilities went to ret paladins and prot paladins.
Or the 30 yard range for Judgments is intended for situational usefulness on fights like (for example) Eredar Twins when you really can't be in melee range (assuming you use the ledge strat) and for PvP usage (where hitting the druid with Justice from across the map is incredibly powerful). We are getting a polish pass sometime soon according to the blues though so we'll see how they take this.

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Old 08/07/08, 1:15 AM   #1674
sag_ich_nicht
Von Kaiser
 
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Human Paladin
 
Gul'dan (EU)
Originally Posted by Unir View Post
To my mind if Blizzard really intended such a dramatic change in playstyle for Holy healers they would have provided more "on-hit" tools to heal with, remember that SoW/JoW is not new - that mechanic has been there since the beginning and has been largely passed on in top-end raid settings for good reason.

What we see Blizzard showing us is actually the opposite, the top end Holy tree includes a talent to extend judging to thirty yards range, a heal which appears to be put to good use on the tank and nearby melee with a 40 yard range, and all of our other abilities remain 40 yards ranged as well, including the new Sacred Shield being added - and the majority (if not all) of the "on-hit" or melee abilities went to ret paladins and prot paladins.

I don't think Blizzard "intended" the 0/21/40 warlock spec either.

Think outside the box, if playing the way toastr purposes would grant better healing, why the hell not do so?

I know the devs read this forum, but not all the time, so maybe someone should take this whole matter to the beta forums, might give the devs a sudden idea surge.

Last edited by sag_ich_nicht : 08/07/08 at 1:17 AM. Reason: toastr answered, had to add a quote block to make the post less confusing.

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Old 08/07/08, 1:16 AM   #1675
Unir
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Fenris
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Or the 30 yard range for Judgments is intended for situational usefulness on fights like (for example) Eredar Twins when you really can't be in melee range (assuming you use the ledge strat) and for PvP usage (where hitting the druid with Justice from across the map is incredibly powerful). We are getting a polish pass sometime soon according to the blues though so we'll see how they take this.
That's my point - why is what could be a strong mana regen mechanic for us so situational and potentially ruled out by a large number of raid design encounters? I don't believe any amount of thinking outside the box will make SoW / JoW work for Twins, for example, and a number of other encounters - so saying 'go hit the boss for mana' while shamans got dumped a passive 50 mp5 on water shield doesn't make sense to me, particularly when you can go hit the boss for mana now and Blizzard knows full well in practice that does not work.

I am curious to see what they do on the next pass as well.

I know the devs read this forum, but not all the time, so maybe someone should take this whole matter to the beta forums, might give the devs a sudden idea surge.
The beta forums have little going on in the way of Holy discussion that I see, the changes to prot and particularly ret are so sweeping people appear to be highly focused on those. The one recent post from a raider who has cleared Sunwell mutliple times and pvp'd to Gladiator states that he believes the current state of Holy has some serious problems for pve. It's a good read but people appear to be not too concerned with it.

Last edited by Unir : 08/07/08 at 1:39 AM.

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Old 08/07/08, 1:20 AM   #1676
Fiola
Great Tiger
 
Human Paladin
 
Skywall
Originally Posted by Unir View Post
To my mind if Blizzard really intended such a dramatic change in playstyle for Holy healers they would have provided more "on-hit" tools to heal with, remember that SoW/JoW is not new - that mechanic has been there since the beginning and has been largely passed on in top-end raid settings for good reason.

What we see Blizzard showing us is actually the opposite, the top end Holy tree includes a talent to extend judging to thirty yards range, a heal which appears to be put to good use on the tank and nearby melee with a 40 yard range, and all of our other abilities remain 40 yards ranged as well, including the new Sacred Shield being added - and the majority (if not all) of the "on-hit" or melee abilities went to ret paladins and prot paladins.
What the heck do you need new tools for?

100% JoW proc chance that scales with gear. SoW scaling with gear and lasting 2 minutes instead of 30 seconds. The playstyle is not very attractive now because of the cost/benefit ratio. WotLK is explicitly changing that cost/benefit ratio. Yes, there are talents that do not benefit that playstyle. But the playstyle is still available and brings useful benefits.

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Old 08/07/08, 1:32 AM   #1677
Unir
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Fenris
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
What the heck do you need new tools for?

100% JoW proc chance that scales with gear. SoW scaling with gear and lasting 2 minutes instead of 30 seconds. The playstyle is not very attractive now because of the cost/benefit ratio. WotLK is explicitly changing that cost/benefit ratio. Yes, there are talents that do not benefit that playstyle. But the playstyle is still available and brings useful benefits.
You can do that now - what you're describing is only that the benefit has increased.

That does not change the fact that the playstyle of melee'ing the boss for SoW / JoW returns is available now and almost uniformly ignored in raiding for Holy paladins. The reasons for ignoring SoW / JoW will not change simply because the values on the buff / debuff change - the same reasons for being out of melee range will still be present.

How many of your raiding Holies melee the boss for these returns now, or did so pre-TBC?

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Old 08/07/08, 1:36 AM   #1678
sag_ich_nicht
Von Kaiser
 
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Human Paladin
 
Gul'dan (EU)
Originally Posted by Unir View Post
The beta forums have little going on in the way of Holy discussion that I see.
Which is exactly my point, so someone from here(Don't look at me, I'm Ret and have no Beta account) should summarize this discussion and take it there.

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Old 08/07/08, 1:42 AM   #1679
Antmanton
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Human Paladin
 
Azjol-Nerub
Originally Posted by Unir View Post
I agree with Ragnor. "Suboptimal" in the raid setting means "we're bringing a druid instead."

If a raid leader is faced with bringing a subpar dps /healer distracted with doing 'suboptimal' other things and a full-on healer, the full-on healer will get brought every time.
Well, if that truly represents the future, expect to spend your raid time as Holy standing outside the instance in group 6 rebuffing every half hour, because a Holy paladin is "suboptimal" to a Holy priest as things stand now. I can pretty much guarantee that Blizzard will never buff Beacon to be better or even really comparable to Circle of Healing in a raid context, and we simply aren't getting the kind of toolbox a Holy priest has. Saying things like "nothing will change" pretty much means you might as well get a jump on a new main now.

Having said all that, I believe things will be changing. The changes to combat rating mechanics alone were aimed squarely at shamans and paladins, and are pretty clearly meant to be used by all specs. Refusing to do so for no better reason than "that's the way things have always been" really does mean things won't change, and you'll only have yourself to blame for it.

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Old 08/07/08, 1:46 AM   #1680
Prinsesa
Bald Bull
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Echo Isles
I'd like a clarification regarding Judgements:

If a Holy Paladin casts Judgement of Light on a boss and the Ret Paladin refreshes it, does the power of the SoL procs continue to be calculated around the Holy Paladin's stats, or around the Ret Paladin's stats?

I ask this because currently, if a Holy Paladin with the 2T4 set bonus casts JoL on a boss, the bonus to JoL is lost as soon as the Ret Paladin refreshes the JoL, because the Ret Paladin is not wearing 2T4.

If that behavior persists, then Crusader Strike has not necessarily lost its utility at all, because the JoL procs from a Ret Paladin would be that much better than a Holy Paladin's.

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