flyingtoastr

That build is also missing a point from Sheath, dropping your SP (even with your non-realistic 6200 AP) down to 1240. You're also missing Improved Ret Aura, which your tanks will not thank you for dropping. Demonic Pact, Improved Divine Spirit, Totem of Wrath, Flametongue Totem and Focus Magic are all non-stacking with each other. Totem of Wrath is the largest at 160 additional spell damage, meaning even with your 6200 AP you'll have a total of 2020 spell power raid buffed (if you use a build that actually includes Sheath). So no, you're still incorrect about the spell damage.

Feedback on your spreadsheet from a cursory glance:

1. Judgement is on a 9 second cooldown in a 6/9/11 cycle or a 10.166 second cooldown in a DS=CS>J cycle. It is never an 8 second cooldown.
2. Consecration and Exorcism are never used on cooldown. 12 seconds is the accepted for Consecration "spam" now, with DS added to the mix it will be even longer. Same applies to Exorcism.
3. Until you fix the "raid buffs" section any number obtained from this sheet means nothing. Please don't use it as the reason why "SoB is almost as good as SoR", it's outdated information that doesn't reflect the current build.

EDIT:

All I adjusted was the percentage modifiers and non-stacking buffs to what they should be in the current push. Total stats with your preset gearset are:

5113 Attack Power
1763 Spell Power

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

Hylo

Something I found on EU beta-forums about BoL and haven't seen discussed here yet:
That's just insane. The question is, is that kind of self-feedback intended (the wording of the spell doesn't forbid it)?

[e]: can anybody confirm this? Just came to my mind that thing this big shouldn't slip without notice...

 

Redcape

You are right about the point in Sheathe, I had thought I had maxed it as I was going up the tree. The points missing in Imp Ret Aura are nonzero, but they aren't critical.

I don't know how many times I have to say this though before it sinks in: This sheet is using the old stacking values. It does not reflect the current beta. I will be posting a sheet that does. This shows how things were when everything stacked. It does not show how things are.

The cooldown on Judgement changes based on your rotation, for certain. Since by the numbers on that sheet Judgement would have been averaging more than 11,000 damage per shot and returning 6600 per shot it seemed to me to be worth it to have a lower number of CS hits to have more mana to spam consecrate, exorcism, etc. That isn't the case anymore, but back when 11k _average_ judgements and 60% JotW were the rules, judgement comes first no matter what. My current cooldown numbers are actually based on J=DS=CS, which seems to generate the most dps overall since their individual damages aren't actually all that different.

My total dps columns don't include consecration and exorcism, and I never talked about those. You can decide for yourself what the average cooldown is and go ahead and put that in, those numbers are there so you can do some figuring, not because I actually think you can spam HoW/Exorcism/Conc on cooldown.

To be sure, if the current (buggy imo, but I am not the ultimate arbiter of these things) implementation of Sheathe that does not benefit SoR goes live, then certainly SoR is bad and SoB / SoV are the best seals. If that is the case I don't think there is any kind of debate going on though, clearly SoR isn't useful and as such there isn't much point debating that topic. If it is buggy though and the SP does apply to SoR then we have rather a close race and it could be very interesting to see which Seal comes out on top.

In case you want to see how the current values stack up, take a look at what I have so far for the new version. It isn't necessarily done completely, but it should give fairly good numbers.

Just as a note, I don't care what seal paladins end up using particularly. I am not in love with any particular one (some paladins are), I just want to get the numbers straight.

Current version

The parts that aren't implemented:

Armor - Since we don't know final armor values yet I simply guessed at 25% mitigation from boss armor. I am open to suggestions if people think they know what it will actually be.

Armor Penetration - See above.

Holy damage using 'spell glance' - 4% reduction applied to some spells against high level mobs. I have no idea if this is sticking around or not. Any information is welcome.

13% spell damage - The warlock and Druid versions exclude holy, the DK one does not. Does it help us? I don't know.

SoV 5 stack procs - I estimated a value for it, but I don't know all the details. Does it crit? Does it miss? Which tables does it use? Crit for 1.5 x?

SoR/SoV/Judgement coefficients - I have pretty good information from the last bit of this thread, but I don't have anything to the 4th significant digit or anything. These are very close (assuming cathela knows what he is talking about, which I do) so are a good estimate for the moment.

There is a lot in there about JotW mana returns. It is an artifact from the previous version where damage actually changed mana returns, and it is in there because I hope we can actually get that sort of mechanic back in some form. Not currently useful.

 

◊ Cathela

The Holy Light glyph is showing similar behavoir but in the opposite direction; the target of the HL also gets a splash heal, even if you're not in a group at all.

Technically, this is all within the "rules" of BoL and the glyph's tooltips. But it basically amounts to the glyph being a 10% buff to HL, and it turns BoL into double healing on a tank. That seems like more than they probably intended.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

DarKNecross

Interesting thread I saw on the Beta forums.
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/2535/judgegs6.jpg
Apparently Judgements of the Wise was hotfixed to restore 20% of Maximum Mana.
WoW Forums -> JotW Hotfixed? Returning 1k mana + buff.

Would anyone be so kind to confirm?

http://crimson-guild.com

 

Prinsesa

If this holds true, the future just got a LOT brighter for Ret.

A 6/9/11 rotation, plus a Seal recast every 2 minutes costs a total of 168.01 mana/sec at level 80

With 5644 naked mana (no gear, but including naked INT), Replenishment + 20% naked mana per Judgement restores 153.64 mana/sec

That's a deficit of just 14.37 mana/sec, so we'd run dry after 393 seconds, or 6.5 minutes. Taking Benediction extends time to OOM to over 9 minutes. Buffing Blessing of Wisdom lets us go infinite even without Benediction.

And that's not even counting Judgement of Wisdom yet.

====================

EDIT: More Paladin news as Ghostcrawler posts

Highlights:

* Blessing of Kings being reconsidered. Baselining "might not be the answer", but they are aware that it's currently misplaced in Prot.

* Top 2 tiers of all three trees may see some shuffling around to encourage more cross-tree speccing, just like other classes.

* Beacon of Light nearing final version, although it might not be what we're using in the current build.

* Vengeance probably going back to 3 stacks, but will probably never go back to +15% damage, although we will get damage increases elsewhere to compensate if necessary.

* They are aware that Ret has too little mana and would like to give us "enough", instead of just giving mana cost reductions.

* Divine Plea mechanic getting changed. The post hinted at it resembling Bloodrage more than Evocation.

* Deep Ret and deep Prot getting more "cool" talents.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Altirias

Some news from Ghostcrawler, I don't know if you've seen the thread, but I haven't seen it quoted here. So here we go :

- They're not happy with kings, things are going to change
- Vengence will be 3 stacks but certainly not up to 15%. Probably up to 9% total, and DK will get the exact same treatment as we will (dps will be buffed in other ways if needed)
- Beacon seems to get some other sexy things in the upcoming patch
- JotW is meant for mana battery and is intended to work like SP and hunter's talents. Yet we will get mana regeneration mechanics : Divine Plea is turning more like Blood rage than Evocation, and they're something else in the pipes (don't know though if it is what DarkNecross refers to)
- they'll change the first 2 tiers of every spec to encourage cross speccing, and they will also improve Ret and Prot's last tiers, by adding a couple of new stuffs, bundling others, etc...

edit : here's the source : MMO-Champion BlueTracker - New Patch, New Note: Don't QQ

 

Zehn

Hehe.. everyone rushing to post same info... that's what i came here to do aswell

As to these changes, I'm particularly interested in the "we want to do 2-3more things to prot to make it a bit more interesting." I was loving current direction, am excited by what they do here aswell

Divine plea as bloodrage is a move in the right direction - would help us when off tanking and single mob tanking,though prob not yet enough for ret. Just hope it also means they give us a nice new animation, I wasn't a fan of the kneeling.

 

Darandor

The sheathbot argument just became a further challenge to fit JotW into your Holy build.

Add these pointers to the current list:
- 20% of your Holy-geared mana pool returned on 30 yard judgements.
- Ditching a needless BoW or BoK for 200 spell power through a sheath-specced BoM.

As an okay-but-not-great Arena PvPer, I like the idea of having some outlast capability where I've had none, so I'm going to enjoy the idea of this until they shift JotW out of reach of a Holy build.

 

Veneda

Am I missing something or the deficit is actually 42.59 mana/sec (125.42-168.01)?

 

Altirias

Yes, you're missing replenishment (0,5% total mana every second for x seconds, can't remember) and the 20% total mana self refill on judgements that was not talked about on the patchnotes, but "discovered" by DarkNecross on the current beta build.

So you're right, but after taking those 2 effects into account, the deficit is 15-ish mp5

 

Prinsesa

My bad, I forgot to add in the 28.22 mana/sec from Replenishment.

168.01 consumption - (28.22 Replenishment + 125.42 JOTW) = 14.37 deficit.

I'll edit my post to reflect this.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

bellator

Whilst i'm happy that they've now fixed the mana issues of ret (i'll be levelling again), isnt the current implementation rather odd? 20% total mana would make it a very strong contender for a Holy 43/0/28 build, giving 2500+ mana back per judgement.

 

Rheyah

So from a PvP perspective it's a Divine Storm measured against a heal. That sounds about right. I mean there'll be other problems but they did mention 'cool' talents, so we'll have to see.

 

Selenia

It's a fix, but the numbers are poorly thought out IMO. Scaling it with total mana instead of base mana with the total at 20% is, ironically, far too good for Holy and not good enough for Ret.

 

Veneda

Linking mana return not with judgement use, but either with CS or DS (or both, with more mana returned by DS) would finally got rid of this silly holy problem.

Still sloppy (why not just make CS/DS cost zero mana instead?) though.

 

Blutelf

They probably just hotfixed the ability to get more Ret DPS data from Naxx.

Changes to Sheath of Light and JoTW are quite likely at this point to get them out of reach for Holy, I guess.

 

Rasputin

At least JotW has to be moved out of the reach of Holy if this remains. Which means moving it quite deep, since you could conceivably get reasonable enough healing power with a mere 37 into Holy. You'd have to place JotW at least in Tier 8(same level as Sanctified Wrath), and more likely in Tier 9(CS) in order to convincingly place it out of reach of Holy. Otherwise you'd have people speccing into Holy Shock(which I now see as the defining Holy ability)/Infusion and still grabbing a bazillion mp5 from JotW, Enlightened Judgements or no. I see Sheath as less of a factor, but it may well be moved deeper as well. And assuming it does, I hope for my own offspeccing and my Holy brethren's mainspeccing that they do something to Beacon to make it powerful and engaging.

 

Selenia

Currently the beacon target gains from healing affecting itself, so it does effectively double your healing on one primary target while still letting you throw heals on other people without losing healing on that target.

Assuming this is intentional, it's not exactly a weak talent.

 

Rasputin

While that would be incredible, assuming that a talent which literally doubles your single target hps is working as intended in a beta is a bit of a stretch. If it is, that's awesome and that should probably be enough, but I wouldn't bank any balancing around that. Especially since GC posted that "I'm sorry, but I don't know if you have the version[of Beacon] I'm talking about or not."(Source), leading me to believe there's at least one more version in the pipeline.

 

Qalor

Actually, keeping JotW as giving replenishment, then putting the self mana regen needed to sustain you into CS would be a really good fix, and give CS the extra utility people have been saying it should have.

 

Noctivagant

Some thoughts:

- For Ret, base% ~ max%, so it being based on max% is not a big deal, but obviously its a little nutty for Holy, so it either/or needs to be deeper or base %

- 20% is an interesting choice: at 8 seconds it's a hair more than a DS cost. To me this makes DS as wash, and would put us close to right back where we are on 2.x live. Does that make sense?

- However, skipping a DS or holding it just a hair, would allow some control over regen. Maybe DS is not meant to be hit the exact second it pops.

- The other shoe here is the new divine plea. If it is more often/better, it could end up picking up the slack. To me, looking for symmetry and elegance, it matches the Enc Shaman nicely, Water Shield + SR matching JotW + DP.

 

Rasputin

According to Prinsesa's math above, we'll have a few discrete mana situations.

1) Raid mana. Effectively infinite as long as we stick to our actual role. Full damage rotation, occasional cleanses, Hands, etc. All are taken care of by JotW + Replenishment + JoW + Mana Spring, and possibly + BoW. All of this can be expected in a raid situation. This will therefore solve our mana problems in that area.

2) Solo play. Spam your damage abilities, once you're at some mana/health deficit you can heal up then restrict your damage for a few minutes(by dropping DS most likely) to regen mana, then repeat. Not infinite mana, but sustainable enough to make grinding decent.

3) PvP. Big question mark. You don't get to use all your abilities on cooldown most likely, but you're also spamming things like Cleanse and possibly healing more than you generally would in a raid. This area is a big question mark to me, dependent on our damage and utility in an arena, as well as the power of opposing players mana drains. In any case it's better than our current state, which is continual decline to uselessness. We will have some regen, which is better than we have now, but whether it will be sufficient will need to be tested.

I would say this 20% return has mostly solved our major mana issues, pending rigorous testing. I'm pretty happy with it.

Edit: Update on solo play/grinding. This is completely painfree now. I just spent some 20-30 minutes decimating the mammoth population of Sholazar basin to get a feel for how this plays, and it goes as follows:

Blessing of Might, Seal of Command, Judgement of Wisdom, Ret Aura. My attack order was Judgement, DS, CS, HoW. This combined with autos and Seal procs was usually enough to kill the mobs I was fighting. Mana was a nonfactor during this phase, as the travel time from mob to mob added to regen, as well as JoW procs. I would grind until I was down !6k life, at which point I would toss myself a Holy Light to top off. I would then return to the previous kil order, but I would leave out HoW for 2-3 kills to let my mana pool replenish. Grinding is easy, quick, and not a ridiculous mana drain. I could use all my standard ret abilities fulltime, only stopping HoW to regen mana after a heal. Once I cook up this mammoth meat I may go check out how grinding goes with JoL instead of JoW to see if the health regen outweighs the mana regen, though I don't think it likely.

As an aside, HoW still absolutely incurs only a 0.5s GCD. This may well be changed, but that is the situation currently.

 

Blackthought

Mana issues with Ret will not be fixed until we have the ability to regen mana when we have been reduced to 0. If this is acceptable for shaman then it has to be acceptable for paladins. I also believe that seals need to become weapon imbues like shaman have so that they are not dispellable and last longer than 2 mins. This would have the added benefit of allowing sanctified seals to be made into something more interesting.

 

• Phara

I'm sorry if this has been covered already, but is it possible to put two beacons of light on the same target assuming you bring two holy paladins?