WotLK talent trees/abilities discussion - Page 13

Sterlin · 07/18/08, 5:34 PM

So you are saying that Heart of the Crusader Stacks? 2 crusader judgements is now 6% crit?

Kaincael · 07/18/08, 5:39 PM

So far, I'm seeing two wildly different Holy builds, much like priests are right now.

One is the heavily crit-dependent Holy/Ret build (key talents in Ret being Conviction and Sheath of Light)
http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?...00000000000000
which seems like it would play very much like how Holydins play in raids right now.

The other would be just deep Holy, but since talents wouldn't have to be spent to try to pick up Sheath of Light and Conviction, this paladin would probably be better at buffbotting/cleansing/raid healing/judging.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?...00000000000000

The second build would probably be able to do tankhealing well enough, but having 5% more crit and stacking hots helps a *lot*.

And the first build wouldn't have much of the extra things, and no aoe heal, but it could manage.

Am I just talking crazy here?

mkultra55 · 07/18/08, 5:41 PM

Quick thoughts....

Sheath of Light.... This really needs to be lower in the tree. Swap it with Crusade or (better) PoJ.

Beacon of Light... Does this effect stack like Lifebloom? There's no CD....or would a Raid Pally toss this out on a few folks over the whole Raid?

I actually like Beacon of Light more than some folks...I was just hoping for a Pally version of Heroism. Something that would increase AP and Spell Power substantially with a 10 min. CD

...and I know it's real early but comparing Holy Pally talents to Resto Shammies I can't see why (given the choice) a Raid leader wouldn't take a Resto Shammy over a Holy Pally still at this point. Especially with the change to Salvation.

What changes were made to our Hals to offset the loss of Blessing of Light?

I was also hoping for a new Seal that Healing Pallies could use. Especially with the new Judgement talents we will have.

Darkstar614 · 07/18/08, 5:48 PM

Looks like there's a seal I don't think anyone mentioned yet:

Seal of the Martyr - Spell - World of Warcraft
Seal of the Martyr
Races- Human, Dwarf, Draenei

Seal of Corruption - Spell - World of Warcraft
Seal of Corruption
Races- Blood Elf

The old switcheroo?!

mkultra55 · 07/18/08, 5:49 PM

Originally Posted by Kaincael

So far, I'm seeing two wildly different Holy builds, much like priests are right now.

One is the heavily crit-dependent Holy/Ret build (key talents in Ret being Conviction and Sheathe of Light)
http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?...00000000000000
which seems like it would play very much like how Holydins play in raids right now.

The other would be just deep Holy, but since talents wouldn't have to be spent to try to pick up Sheathe of Light and Conviction, this paladin would probably be better at buffbotting/cleansing/raid healing/judging.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?...00000000000000

The second build would probably be able to do tankhealing well enough, but having 5% more crit and stacking hots helps a *lot*.

And the first build wouldn't have much of the extra things, and no aoe heal, but it could manage.

Am I just talking crazy here?

I was thinking for the Sheath of Light build that it would be good to put 5 points into Divine Strength to get the AP increase which in turn would boost my Spell Power.

etrnl · 07/18/08, 5:56 PM

The changes made to Holy Shock and Beacon of Light alone are enough to give Paladins more viability when raid damage > tank damage. With us getting a free Holy Light every time a Holy Shock Crits, and with a targeted AE HoT, it'll help us be able to also focus more on the melee side instead of just tanks specifically. If we get the changes that were just put out today, and don't see a huge nerf within the first few content patches in Wrath, Paladins in general just opened up a whole new can of whoop ass.

Knowing Paladins and their history in WoW, half of this stuff MIGHT make it through, the stuff that does make it through will get nerf'ed because of QQ from PvP and other classes. We'll see...

Thorin · 07/18/08, 6:15 PM

I wonder how a high threat AOE Tanking Build, ala 0/48/23 would work when combined with warrior/pvp gear with lots of stamina and AP using those new 'light' talents:

Combining:

Sheath of Light (23 pts RET)
Rank 3
Increases your spell power by an amount equal to 30% of your attack power and your critical healing spells heal the target for 60% of the healed amount over 12 seconds.

+

Touched by the Light (Deep PROT)
Rank 3
Increases your spell power by an amount equal to 30% of your Stamina and increases the amount healed by your critical heals by 30%.

+

Guarded by the Light (Deep PROT)
Rank 2
Whenever you parry or dodge an attack you have a 20% chance to reduce the mana cost of your next Consecration, Holy Wrath or Avenger's Shield spell by 50%.

Sort of like this:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?...15002152312020

I'm kinda concerned how you would remain uncrittable in AP/STA gear though, and have been trouble deciding where to sacrifice those 3 points for max Sheath of Light, but still need to think a lot on the fillers I used, but you gusy get the idea.

But AOE farming with this build would be insane, theoretically.

Ulthwithian · 07/18/08, 6:16 PM

mkultra: I believe that the patch notes says that Blessing of Light was removed, and that its effects were 'rolled into' the relevant abilities.

I take that to mean that Holy Light and Flash of Light will have either greater base healing, a higher than normal coefficient (even over other heals), or some combination of both.

mkultra55 · 07/18/08, 6:17 PM

Originally Posted by Smurrf

For those who are concerned about Divine Guardian, don't be.

Try looking at the wording again: When Divine Shield is active, 15/30% of all damage taken by raid or party members within 30 yards is redirected to the Paladin.

It doesn't say 30% of all will be done to the pally, just that the damage is shifting who it targets (or at least a portion of it.) The pally's bubble will absorb all that damage...at least, so long as Blizz doesn't change things.

So for fights like Naj'entus, where the entire raid is taking a tremendous blow all at once, what this will give raids is a bit of breathing room. The flip side of that is Blizz can expect all 25mans to have at least one pally, so there might actually be fights tuned to the point that if a pally does NOT blow DG at some point, the raid wipes...or at best is surviving by the skin of their teeth. It'll be interesting to see what Blizz does with this in level designing.

Edit: beaten to the punch. Ah well.

I see this as more a Holy Pally talent TBH. For the Holy Pally going for Beacon of Light and Kings.

A Build iike this -

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

mkultra55 · 07/18/08, 6:19 PM

Originally Posted by Ulthwithian

mkultra: I believe that the patch notes says that Blessing of Light was removed, and that its effects were 'rolled into' the relevant abilities.

I take that to mean that Holy Light and Flash of Light will have either greater base healing, a higher than normal coefficient (even over other heals), or some combination of both.

Do you think that means we will have a permanent BoLight effect on our Heals or is it the combined effect of the new talents?

SirM · 07/18/08, 6:21 PM

I'm really unsure how to value our new skills and talents. A holy build with sheath of light just looks strange for me and I would prefer a more conservative holy build, something like:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?...00000000000000

Maybe leave out the protection talents and get conviction and a few remaining holy talents. But the thing that concerns me the most is the complete lack of any new mechanic of manaregen for holypaladins. In sunwell I'm often jealous of our priests and druids and their near endless mana. If there wouldn't be so much raid damage and thus mana regain through spiritual attunment I'm sure paladins would not be able to keep up with them healingwise. I have hoped they would buff illumination to maybe something like 75% or so or would give us a talent which regenerates mana equal to x % of our Intellect every 5 seconds. But without these changes I fear we will be starved for mana.

Kigale · 07/18/08, 6:22 PM

Originally Posted by atheira

The changes made to Holy Shock ...snip... getting a free Holy Light every time a Holy Shock Crits

I can't see this used in pve at all. Holy Shock uses a GCD and isn't very mana efficient. IF it crits, Holy Light will still take 1-1.5 seconds for the GCD (depending on Haste) so it isn't actually free, just uninteruptable. Perfect for pvp imo.

mkultra55 · 07/18/08, 6:23 PM

Originally Posted by SirM

I'm really unsure how to value our new skills and talents. A holy build with sheath of light just looks strange for me and I would prefer a more conservative holy build, something like:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?...00000000000000

Maybe leave out the protection talents and get conviction and a few remaining holy talents. But the thing that concerns me the most is the complete lack of any new mechanic of manaregen for holypaladins. In sunwell I'm often jealous of our priests and druids and their near endless mana. If there wouldn't be so much raid damage and thus mana regain through spiritual attunment I'm sure paladins would not be able to keep up with them healingwise. I have hoped they would buff illumination to maybe something like 75% or so or would give us a talent which regenerates mana equal to x % of our Intellect every 5 seconds. But without these changes I fear we will be starved for mana.

I agree. It's strange that we went from the Healers with endless mana to the Healers who need Innvervate the most.
I still have hope that Illumination will return to 100% before the Beta is done.

etrnl · 07/18/08, 6:34 PM

Originally Posted by Ulthwithian

mkultra: I believe that the patch notes says that Blessing of Light was removed, and that its effects were 'rolled into' the relevant abilities.

I take that to mean that Holy Light and Flash of Light will have either greater base healing, a higher than normal coefficient (even over other heals), or some combination of both.

I would think since auras are now raid wide, Imp Dev Aura could be where it was partially rolled into, given it now has a 1/2/3% increase to healing done, as well as Avenging Wrath having a 20% bonus to healing (yes it's not to a single target, but I would see it as a viable change).

flyingtoastr · 07/18/08, 6:38 PM

Originally Posted by Kigale

I can't see this used in pve at all. Holy Shock uses a GCD and isn't very mana efficient. IF it crits, Holy Light will still take 1-1.5 seconds for the GCD (depending on Haste) so it isn't actually free, just uninteruptable. Perfect for pvp imo.

Look at the new mined Holy Shock versus the new Holy Light. That's right, HS is more efficient. Not only that but it has full range, full crit and +heal talents (Healing Light and Sanctified Light apply to it) and it can be used while in motion. Holy Shock could very well be a very important ability for holy paladins.

And you're forgetting a very big difference.

Holy Light still "takes" 1.5 seconds if it is instant, but the heal is frontloaded, making it much more powerful for emergency reactive healing in both PvE and PvP.

As for holy builds, I'm still guessing something akin to 51/20/0 will still be the norm. Gaining some crit and a marginal HoT from Sheathbot spec isn't worth losing the activated AoE HoT, haste and utility and survivability offered from the extra prot talents.