Kayoto

In a situation where AE damage is common, you wouldn't have much of a problem sustaining mana even with a full DPS cycle.

Alternate solutions for low-AE damage scenarios include:
Divine Plea
Hand of Sacrifice
Spirit Link (requires Resto Shaman)
Using a low-mana-cost DPS rotation (exclude Consecrate and possibly Exorcism) -- remember that the majority of our DPS right now comes from HotR, ShR, and Judgements, all of which don't cost much mana. JoW and Replenishment will probably be enough to sustain this kind of cycle.

 

• frmorrison

Indeed, however something that does holy damage >> doing nothing, since there are very few abilities to use as dpsing Holy Paladin, and all have cooldowns.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Spenda

If we are really that well off for mana in wrath, then would we really prioritize blessing of sanctuary over blessing of kings? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only additional mana expenditure we really need to make while tanking vs not tanking would be holy shield. So, if our mana is fine, then it seems we are trading 3% reduction in damage for 10% all stats. I'm sure there are situations where that trade off would not always skew towards the damage reduction (especially with our decreased stamina scaling). Obviously this is a non-issue where both blessings are available.

 

Kayoto

I'm not saying that we're in the best situation ever in terms of mana while off-tanking / attempting to DPS, just that there are several options available that will probably make it so you can last the entire fight's duration in most circumstances.

I'm not exactly sure how that relates to your question about whether Sanctuary or Kings is better. You wouldn't really need Sanctuary if you're just DPSing (off-tanking would vary, but I'd say 90% of the time you'd want Sanctuary to recover lost mana when you DO gain aggro since you're probably putting out your full threat cycle as much as you can).

If you're talking about main tanking something that hits hard enough that the mana restoring effect of Sanctuary is nearly useless, then 10% all stats vs. -3% damage taken depends on a few factors, but I'd probably take the 10% all stats, personally.

I apologize if I misconstrued your question in some way.

 

Redcape

My sheet only really considered Judgement, Hammer, and Shield for dps. There are numbers on there for Consecrate, Exorcism and HoW but that 3k dps benchmark is without considering any of those. If you are casting Shield, Hammer and Judgement on 6,6,9 second cooldowns you are using

Shield 6% * .7 / 6 = .7% base mana/sec
Hammer 6% / 6 = 1% base mana/sec
Judgement 5% / 9 = .555% mana/sec

Total = 2.25% base mana/sec

With ~4100 base mana we are going to be using 92.5 mana/sec.

Replenishment will give us (assuming 7600 mana fully buffed) 38 mana/sec
JoW will give us 30.4 mana/sec
Blessing of Wisdom will restore either 18 or 22 mana / sec, call it 20.
Divine Plea is 31.7 mana/sec

Total = 120.1 mana/sec incoming while taking absolutely zero raid damage.

So we are regenerating 28 mana/sec (or 140 mp5) with zero raid damage. We won't be spamming Consecrate on the cooldown, but we will definitely be able to fit in HoW and/or Exorcism on a regular basis in addition to our basic rotation.

 

◊ Cathela

Against something that seriously threatens your survival, +10% stamina will make you sturdier than 3% damage reduction, and you'll be at permanent full mana anyway, so BoK>BoS for the really hard stuff, yes. BoS is for soloing, for trash/farm content, and for two-pally situations.

And as for dps rotations, yeah: a basic HotR/SotR/Judge rotation is pretty cheap. If you don't spam Cons you can last for a long time. And if you need to recharge the batteries, you can switch to SoW for a little bit and not lose much of your total dps.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

HamSlammer

Come 3.0, we'll be doing alot more Holy damage in comparison to our physical damage because of Sheath of Light, Divine Storm, etc etc. Basically, my question is, how will ArP scale in comparison to other stats? I'm a bit concerned because of some of our best pieces (Immortal Dusk for example) might become not our best pieces. Another example is T6 Legs vs. Divine Retribution for those of us who're unlucky on Brutallus (ZERO LEGS IN 15 KILLS /wrists).

 

flyingtoastr

Armor Penetration is going from a "good" stat to a "meh" stat come 3.0. It's not bad, but its leagues behind pretty much everything else. I'd have to check later but the Archimonde legs (or maybe Tier 6, but it doubt that) might be pushed past Divine Retribution.

[Hard Khorium Battlefists] are our new craftable gloves of choice, the haste and more importantly the hit rating (as we're losing precision) are wonderful.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

HamSlammer

That's what I figured.

Has anyone made up a preliminary spreadsheet, a Beta version of Bellator's perhaps? I imagine it'd be hell to maintain though, with everything not being finalized and constantly updated. I didn't wanna bother the RAWR thread because I figured it's pointless to make a Ret model for each and every Beta build if something got changed... Art of War 8926 for example.

 

Razr

I believe it is rather clear by now that any serious guild, won't bring more than 1 holy paladin in 25mans assuming retribution and/or protection paladin in raids. This alone is enough to support the concept of an under-favored healing class, therefore making the SWP situation even worse. Utility provided by Holy Paladins will have a very hard time competing in the battle of raid spots. Don't fall for the marketing statements of wanting to eliminate class-unique utility/buffs. As it was for-mentioned with the removal of the "best single target healer" feature of Paladins, the advantages of having a holy paladin in raids are being eliminated day by day

 

nevinera

Did anyone bring up the synergy between Beacon of Light and Spirit Link yet?
Assuming they remove the doubled tank healing and still give paladins some use for the holy tree, spamming FoL on the offtanks (or just waiting and keeping them up with HL) nets us a pretty huge 'total healing done' number. The downside of BoL (only effective healing is counted) would be basically negated that way.

 

Palados

Why would you expect a few holy palas in raid if you have retri and prot? There are 9 classes and 25 slots, you can not excpect some class taking 4+ of them, can you? Bliz stated that they don't want raid stacking of any class. And, imho, they are close to achieving it in wotlk in a sence that stacking won't bring advantage over taking skilled players of different classes. I am sure some groups will have 2 and even 3 holy palas with prot and retri. But I am gald that it won't be 'needed' and I will get my spot because of my skill and not extra blessing or utility.

P. S. Carefully looking at other healing classes and itemization, I still believe that paladins will be best single target healers. Time will tell.

 

• Arikah

Hey, at least you aren't at 29 kills like I am :| You'd think they didn't exist...

As for gearing for 3.0, we've got a couple of months to consider gear choices that will give us 3% more hit; you may want to consider picking up a [Stormrage Signet Ring] to make up a nice 1.9% hit. We'll have to make some gem and possibly enchant adjustments too, but be thankful we aren't ele shamans ;p (they have to pull something like 150+ hit out of thin air due to talents changing). ArPen will get a lot better for those of us who aren't currently stacking it (horde)... which makes me feel bad for alliance, since haste stinks for them currently (does anyone know if alliance are getting martyr with 3.0?)

As for holy, i'd guess that it still needs another pass, along with prot. So for now we should just pass on suggestions for what needs improvement, rather than be worried about if holy will be viable for wrath. I'm logging on beta now, does anyone want anything in particular tested?

 

Rasputin

Actually Armor Pen will be significantly worse for ret paladins of all flavors. Not only will our balance of damage be shifting more towards holy and further from physical due to stronger judgements and the addition of Divine Storm, but we'll be losing WF attacks. I'm not sure where you got the idea that armor pen will be getting better for us.

 

• frmorrison

The plan is to give everyone Blood in 3.0.

Prot seems fine, with the exception of an 11 point talent. Holy needs help though.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Noctivagant

Well, I got in beta.

My Paladin (who has not been my main during the BC era so has very Joe Average gear) is totally different to solo with than live, just a completely different class.

It would never occur to me to want to hold back or downrank (illegal or not) now at all. CS, DS and JoX are np at all, and really, with GCD leave you almost no time w/o one of the 3 ready.

The new AOW is brilliant too, its what I have always wanted, something interactive. You watch for it, do it and its one more thing to do like overpower.

Between sealing, DS, CS, Judgements, reactive AoW, HoJ, AW and DP, the days of auto attack are now long over.

Please Bliz, leave the class-spec (for the most part) alone.

 

Redcape

Kinda.

Ret_Prot_dpsv1-8926.xls - FileFront.com

This has the functionality to do it, but you will need to change the toon level, base stats, ratings conversions and stats from gear. Also the raid buffs that scale would have to be altered... all in all, not really set up for 70, I built it for 80. That said, go nuts and muck with it if you want to, it works and is updated for the current beta push.

 

Rasczak

I love a lot of the changes to prot, the only problems at the moment are waiting until 75 for SotR for no real reason and the fact that you can't get down to teir 6 talents without putting points into either kings or some talents you won't really use. Last our stam scaling took a hit which makes me worry about ending up in a situation like we had before where a fresh 70 tank was too fragile to tank anything to get better gear, and it took a long time to catch up.

Personally I don't plan on taking kings since there are plenty of other nice talents and I'm a dick so one of the other pallys I raid with can take it. once you get divine str, anticipation, imp rf, and toughness you need 2 more points to get BoSanc and then 4 more points to get down to 1h spec. Your options are kinda meh for all of those points. imp devo is nice but hardly exciting and is only 600 armor at 80. Maybe if they made the talent scale off a stat so its not the same when you hit 80 as when you kill arthas. Divine Guardian is neat but highly situational, especially since it means you drop all threat when you use it. Then there is reckoning which is pretty poor overall and a bad talent to take for end game raiding since it increases chances of parry gibs. Then all the other options are pvp talents.

Hopefully they will add something nice as an 11 point talent that will make this a moot point, and rework reck so its worth taking. I'm also looking forward to what some of the cool talents they have in the pipe for us are. I'd be willing to drop guarded by the light, judgments of the just and AD if it gave me some fun things to play with, especially for running instances that I outgear or are just easy enough that I don't need ot squeeze every drop of survival and threat for.

 

Smurrf

You don't take Imp'd Devo talents for the armor bonus (unless you're maxing out your druid tank). You take it for the healing bonus it gives. Remember, you're working with raidwide auras, and that's a huge boost. 3% DOES scale, it just doesn't scale off your gear; it scales off the raid's healers' gear. And yes, Prot has had all the fat cut out of it. We know this; it's been commented on several times now. It's not done yet; view it as a plate of food that still needs the sauce whipped up and a garnish added to it. You have the meat and potatoes, now just wait a bit for the chefs to give it its final flair.

I think you're being overly harsh on something that's obviously not finished, and you're looking at all the negatives of taking certain talents. It really appears to me that the lower-middle section of the tree is fast becoming our flavor section, and there's always stuff to take to fit your style of play.

Oh, and a Pally who won't take Kings just to be a dick and force someone else to take it? If you really don't see anything else useful, why not take it for those times when A) you don't need regen and B) just in case your Kings Pally is out for the evening? You wanted a talent that scaled? There it is. If you need to burn points, take it, and don't be that dick.



And because it bears repeating, it's very obvious that this tree is not done yet. Give it a bit to be fleshed out, before griping that there's no real choices to be made. It'll be alright. Really.

 

DarKNecross

Cathela, or anyone else on beta with some free time and a couple hot pockets, I was wondering if you wouldn't mind breaking out meters to test the Art of War critical damage increase and the Righteous Vengeance increase. There's been postulating, but I'm not aware actual testing has been done. What I'm mainly trying to figure out is the wording on Art of War. As far as I'm aware, there aren't any other talents that are worded "increases critical strike damage" instead of "increases critical strike damage bonus". Is it just a wording issue, or is it actually a 20% increase to Critical damage, meaning critical hits do 240% damage instead of the intuitive 220%. Also, how do Art of War and Righteous Vengeance interact. Is it additive or multiplicative?

http://crimson-guild.com

 

GSH

I tried to test Art of War and Righteous Vengeance. My numbers are weird though. You have to do it with Judgement, not ShoR, but at least JoR does not vary.

At first, I was getting a total crit multiplier of 2.37. Then I noticed I had the 3% crit damage meta-gem. Removing my helmet gave a multiplier of about 2.32. I also think that Crusade is giving 3% bonus crit damage as posted above.

My best guess as to how it works is:

Crit Multiplier = 2 + (0.25 + 0.03 + 0.03)*1.2

Which kind of honestly makes no sense whatsoever. I'll test again tomorrow more thoroughly.

 

HamSlammer

[Stormrage Signet Ring] + [Hard Khorium Battlefists] will basically ramp most of us up to 142 or so Hit. If worse comes to worse, you can always just use Hit food

 

◊ Cathela

I think you're getting RV (2.25) and crusade (1.03), which together give you 2.32 within rounding error. Not sure why you wouldn't be getting AoW though. I'll test it some tomorrow if you don't beat me to it.

And also, I'll happily test anything else people want me to test that can be done in Azeroth reasonably close to a trainer. Northrend is laggy as all hell right now, so this is a way I can "play the beta" without having to deal with that.

(You're welcome to ask about harder/more complicated things, but I make no promises on those.)

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Aquaman7

You're wrong! Holy Paladins count has healers so a Raid Leader will invite if he needs healers, retribution and protection available in the Raid is a secondary issue.

Retribution count in the dps melee spots, so competing with dps warriors, rogues and enhancement shamans.

Protection count in the Tank spots, with protection warriors, feral Druids and Death Kinght in WOTLK.

In the case of Retribution in WOTLK raids, your spot will depend on gear and skill of course, but also from your individual dps and utility to the raid. In terms of utility i think the most important will the replenishement of mana available with judgement of the wise talent.

In this particular case is very funny that if one Holy Paladin wanted to get a Raid spot intstead of a retribution one it still is very viable to specc for judgements of the wise and perform a job of great o utility to the Raid.

It's funny that with all the whining about SOL specc that led to this latest change and the talent going tier 9 in Retribution tree, maybe those Guys hited the wrong spot, it should be JOTW to move instead of SOL from a Retribution perspective, so that they have easiest Raid spots.

 

flyingtoastr

The whole "Holy shouldn't be taking SoL/JotW" argument has nothing to do with raid composition. It's the ludicrous idea that the "healing" spec for the class is 41+ points down the DPS tree. It reminds me very strongly of pre-1.9 when the healing spec was 11/0/31+, which is silly. 41+ is a retribution build, not a holy one.

Divine Favor still costs mana.