Ivriniel

The problem is, they can't really do much on the base seals/judgments now. Ret simply gets to much SP from Sheath.

Giving seals a higher spelldmg coeff wont fix anything at this point, it'll only cause problems with holy doing more damage than ret at some point depending on gear.

I really do wonder how they'll balance seal coeffs without changing Sheath to healing spellpower only.
Btw, why does ret need Spellpower in the first place? I can see healing spellpower being nice for offhealing, but spelldmg?
Ret should scale from AP, and AP alone way easier to balance with gear progression as well.

 

Veneda

I wonder if there is any viable way to check end game ret paladin DPS right now. WWS from beta Naxx (patchwerk?) perhaps?

 

Redcape

More interesting numbers stuff. Seal of Vengeance:

Both the application of the dot and the 5 stack damage are resistable, using normal spell resists. They show up as miss. Standard 1.5x crit on 5 stack.

The .012 SP * WS formula seems right still. How pathetic.

Hammer of the Righteous:

I hit capped myself for physical and never missed again, so it is on physical miss chance. Never dodged or parried, but did deflect a fair bit of the time ~ 10% or so in a non statistically rigorous sample. I was expertise capped in dodge so I am quite sure parry converts to deflect, but I am not certain whether dodge does or not. This does raise the value of expertise substantially.

On a related note, has anyone ever gotten a deflect from Avenger's shield? I never have and my miss chance with it would support a 9% miss rate (anecdotal only). I assumed it was physical hit based and ignored dodge/parry, would love confirmation from extensive testing. Since judgement definitely works off physical hit % and is non dodgeable/parryable/deflectable it would make sense that AS would be the same.

 

Prinsesa

I too have never gotten a dodge/parry from Avenger's Shield. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't AS (and Judgement) considered a ranged attack? Ranged attacks can miss, crit, be blocked, or hit. Then, since AS deals magical damage, it cannot be blocked, reducing the combat table to miss, crit or hit.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

• Chicken

Avenger's Shield, Hammer of Wrath and Judgements all use the ranged table yes, with no block due to dealing Holy damage.

Hammer of the Righteous uses a standard melee table, but it uses deflecting instead of parry to fit the fact that it's basically a "thrown hammer" attack. It can definitely be dodged if you don't have enough expertise to reach the expertise cap.

Shield of Righteousness seems to use the spell hit table. I've never seen it get dodged or parried, only miss. It might also use the ranged table now I think about it, since that can only either miss, hit or crit as well, and would fit better with it critting for double damage.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

Altirias

I know I'm digging up a very old post, but the search function didn't return anything else on that topic.
Still no change to LoSR on Beta or even PTR ? If not, maybe it should be worth to mention it to the devs on the official boards, as I've recently seen with the craftable SSC prot pal belt that wasn't reflecting the itemization change.

Lots of healing pals are using this libram, and with the nerf to downranking it certainly comes ahead of the lurker one, and maybe even the libram of mending. If it is rendered useless because not updated, well, it would be quite disappointing

edit : typo

 

Poggrid

Updating the Lurker libram would be nice too--it was going to get a significant buff several patches ago, but blizzard realized that it could be used to cast mana-free HL1 to keep Light's Grace up indefinitely. Now that downranking is being removed, the Lurker libram could be properly buffed.

 

Redcape

I would appreciate it if you could check on Shield of Righteousness for me about the hit situation. Can you get your +hit% up to 9% and bash a target dummy for a bit and see if you get any misses? I imagine at 80 you might not have the gear to achieve it, I don't know. I am trying to make sure all the proper tables are used for each ability in my spreadsheet.

 

nevinera

edit: Just realized that this post belonged in the Normal ret thread, since it's about level 70, after 3.0

 

Tilted

I'm pretty sure that's exactly how it functions on live right now. The level-based resist is a major part of why it's currently so unreliable as a tanking seal. Did something change that I'm not seeing?

 

thedopefishlives

On live, it's a PPM mechanic. This can (and often does) lead to the stack falling off, even if you have 100% uptime on the seal. On the beta/PTR, it's a 100% chance on hit.

 

Tilted

Right, but on live it's a PPM mechanic that can be resisted. I realize that it's 100% chance to proc on hit in the beta, but the resist mechanic has been in game since the spell was introduced. For that matter, I'm pretty sure the added damage on 5-stack has always been able to crit as well, but that part I'm not too sure of.

 

Merple

How is SoComm looking for general Ret levelling in WotLK? Nobody seems to be talking about it, and all of the spreadsheets have been focusing on Righteousness/Vengeance/Blood, so I assume it's low, but I figured I'd ask considering Vengeance probably isn't so hot against mobs that die quickly, and unless you're running with a healer, Blood is probably not the best idea.

-In our country, any CBC reporter can dream of becoming head of state.

 

Suicidal Zebra

Because Art of War now gives a chance at an instant cast FoL, and Ret is pretty self-sufficient when it comes to mana regen, SoB can do the job when it comes to levelling. The value of SoCommand is probably restricted to PvP and gimmick fights such as Prince, though in the latter it may be edged out by Vengeance.

 

Prinsesa

Yes, the 5-stack extra proc damage has always been able to crit, but then again that damage is so unbelievably small that it's hardly worth mentioning.

As was said above, SoComm is made largely obsolete by SoB/SoM, primarily because of Art of War letting a Paladin heal himself comfortably on the run and in mid-combat.

Pre-level 64, SoComm will probably be your primary leveling Seal, but only because SoR got nerfed so badly.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

flyingtoastr

As was said, the healing from JoL/DS are enough to keep you up on most single mobs and the instant FoL's from AoW are great for in between running between mobs (at the moment they are still resetting the swing timer so they aren't too useful in combat). There really isn't any reason not to use SoB for soloing.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

Spenda

I just want to make sure we are talking about the same thing. Shield of Righteousness.

I was under the impression that Shield of Righteousness did not scale with either spellpower or AP, but rather with block value. That is why it seemed off that the spelldamage gear you tested it with yielded equivalent average damage to the ap gear you tested it with. The reason I assumed the AP gear would yield higher damage was because of the strength on the AP gear, not the actual AP. The strength should mean more block value, which should lead to higher damage. Am I missing something here? Did you think I mean seal of righteousness?

 

Fiola

Some quick PTR testing notes:

SoC still doesn't scale with haste - over 167~ hits, I got 63 procs (37.7%) with 3.8 AS hasted to 3.05 (including Ret aura). I lost the data from an earlier run, but I had a 44~% proc chance w/ a 3.8 AS weapon when using 0 haste.

SoW has a pretty high PPM - I had 84 procs over 87 hits w/ a 3.8 AS weapon. I had 44 procs over 73 hits with a 1.9 AS weapon, Between those two trials, that's anywhere from 15~19 PPM. (Small sample size, I know)

SoL - 45 Procs over 92 hits w/ a 1.9 AS weapon. 44 procs over 44 hits w/ a 3.8 AS weapon. ~15.5 PPM

 

Suicidal Zebra

Fiola, have you had any opportunity to test which % chance to proc Seals Crusader Strike and Divine Storm utilise. I presume that they would use the standard PPM value, but I'm wondering if hastes' effect on the SoC Proc % for autoattacks is also reflected in a lower % proc chance for instant attacks.

 

Fiola

I forgot to note that "hits" lumps auto-attacks, CS, and DS together. I'll run some more trials, but I'd expect CS/DS to have a reduced proc % chance w/ haste.

 

madmardigan83

Having Ret use spell power helps for when they need to switch into an OT role. Keep in mind that the tanking gear no long has spell power on it. A prot pally gets it from talents. Well, in order to do any kind of threat to speak of, giving ret some spell power helps out the OT role (as well as the off-healer like you mentioned)

 

Spenda

Why would spell power be required to create threat? Most of the threat moves you'd be using scale off of AP as well as SP now. That is why prot gear doesn't have SP anymore.

 

• Arikah

Have you tried SoC with and without the glyph (20% more chance to proc)? I wonder if it is worth a major glyph slot in pvp, especially with so many other options open to us. Regarding SoW/SoL, purely anecdotal evidence seems to point to both seals having a 100% proc rate when used with DStorm and CS and a 2h weapon, which seems to match your findings.

@ivriniel: Ret still does need spellpower in it's damage rotations actually. With the way things are now, all of our abilities minus CS and DStorm scale with both ap and sp; removing the 700-1000 spellpower that we get from sheath would not only cripple our damage, but would make us (yet again) non-hybrids. I like healing myself and having it being worth the gcd, not to mention the pause in dps.

 

Rasputin

While I agree that being able to heal yourself and others for something worthwhile is a plus, I have to say it's a scary line to tread, especially in raids. If we have instant FoLs, people may expect us to start throwing them around all the time, and while that may be helpful in cases, it will absolutely murder our damage due to the swing timer reset. Art of War in particular seems to be a pvp-oriented healing ability. While it and even our normal FoLs and HLs can and will be useful in both PvE and PvP, being expected or forced to spam every AoW proc you get on the raid or tank is a recipe for terrible performance.

 

Anedris

Helping to heal and doing less damage as a result is only "terrible performance" if your raid leader is clueless. It's not rocket surgery - if he wants you to be rogue, just hit stuff and don't heal and (assuming Blizz balances the numbers reasonably) you should keep up (considering the blessing you bring etc. etc.). If he wants you to help heal you'll do less damage and maybe some people will live who would otherwise have died.

This seems like a primary example of a player-made "problem." Being able to heal effectively should only ever be a disadvantage if our maximum not-doing-any-healing DPS output is penalized to balance it.