A holy paladin gives up 3% spell crit to get kings. (Sanctified seals.)
The retadin provides kings, the holydin provides imp. wisdom or imp. might, done, end of story. If you have a protadin tank your tanks get sanc and your hunters/enhancement shammies/retadins get unimproved wisdom/might (whichever they're missing).
Only two paladins required for the bulk of the buffs, with three being a bit better and four being a very marginal improvement over three. Seems perfectly fine to me.
I thought the 50% healing hit on DP was to simulate the time that the spirit casters spent outside the 5 second rule for holy and to help throttle ret healing over a 15 second period or so.
I am not missing the point, I mentioned this wasn't mandatory but was a much stronger buff than you make it look to appear on a very weak hit. You should read what I wrote more carefully
I'll repeat:
The original assertion by Synbios was that 4 Paladins are required to get a raid all the buffs they need (1 Paladin for every Blessing). The point I was trying to make is that you don't need to bring 4 Paladins to every raid mandatory to get each class the buffs they need due to game design, and that every class can get the buffs they need without having to skew raid composition. So let's bury that discussion.
Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't the Glyph of Blessing of Might been removed? This means you don't need raidwide might (which doesn't make sense) and means only ret paladins, shaman, hunters won't have sanctuary and everyone has the buffs they need with only 3 paladins.
I must have missed the update where they changed it, the old version isn't showing up on WoWhead anymore instead replaced with a glyph extending the buff by 20 minutes. In that case, yes raid-wide Blessing of Might isn't applicable anymore and it's totally fair for me to concede that, and yes everyone can still get everything they need with just 3 Paladins.
Last edited by Kyne : 09/22/08 at 12:23 AM.
Reason: Added a blurb
Yes which is what I pointed out in my post as well, for some reason you are seeing this as an attack when all I did was correct your reasoning about blessing of sanctuary sounding alot weaker than what it currently is on WTLK and showcase the reason why this is not so. I'm not sure where you got the idea that when one of your points is incorrect, it means your whole reasoning is incorrect.
Most players will want Kings, and either Wisdom or Might.
Tanks will want Kings and Sanctuary.
Hunters, Ret/Prot pallies and Enhance shammys will want both Wisdom and Might - however, you are probably likely to have battle shout overriding Might.
-so it seems that paladins are the ones most shafted by this, as a Prot pally wants all 4 blessings if possible. Lolz.
Holy paladins speccing Holy/Ret will get both Imp Might and Wisdom. Currently that looks a much better spec than Holy/Prot.
Ret paladins will spec Ret/Prot and be able to get Might/Kings
The issue is that if raid setup is a Holy and a Prot paladin, the prot pally can't get both kings and sanctuary without some talent swaps, meaning that either holy loses a little healing or prot loses a little threat.
While ya'll raise some good points regarding the amount of Paladins one needs to bring to a raid, I feel that we still have not addressed one of the issues I raised regarding BoK.
Let me ask you this: Are Paladins as a class made better by the existence of Kings as a talent? If the skill was gone, would you miss it? Would you say to yourself, "My usefulness as a class and people's desire to bring me places has been substantially reduced." I would argue, no. You would still maintain one unique buff for all specs (Wisdom). You would still have unique Judgements. You would still have unique Hand buffs. You would still bring the competitive HPS/DPS/TPS of your chosen spec.
Is any other class limited by their long-duration buff? Except for Priests, does anyone have to even spec into a long-duration buff? And priests' is pretty extraneous; I'm guessing a bit here, but no encounter is designed assuming you have Prayer of Spirit. Encounters ARE designed assuming you have BoK.
And therein is the problem. It's a buff that everyone has to have for any serious content, but it's boring and costs 5 talent points. It's also placed in the same tree as another, mutually exclusive blessing.
Why not just have three Paladin blessings: Might, Wisdom, Sanctuary. One for each tree. With Wisdom and Might baseline, any class would gain benefit from having a Paladin around. Why not remove Kings and be done with it?
Aside from raid encounters having to be slightly retuned to match, the fact that Kings is 10% to all stats make it a very simple situation if it is removed. If everyone is nerfed/buffed, then no-one is.
It would actually make more sense to combine Might and Wisdom into a single buff. The effects are mutually exclusive for all classes except Enh Shaman, Ret/Prot Paladin, and Hunters. It might even simplify assigning Blessings, reducing the need for mods like Pally Power.
Yes, forcing GSH to rename his blog isn't a great idea.
Like he said, I would rather see Might and Wisdom rolled into one. Right now they are the reason for these "buff problems" as you have classes and specs (prot pallys) who want all 4 buffs. By combining them into a single buff (Blessing of Power or something) you make it imperative to have 2 pallys (good), nice to have 3 (good), and gain nothing from stacking past there (good).
Incidentally that would allow simple raid-wide blessings as well, as every class can make use of Power, Kings, and (to a lesser extent) Sanctuary.
If you're the only healer on Patchwerk you're pretty much fucked anyway. During those times that you really need Plea you should really just notify your other healers and they can pick up the slack during your downtime. You can sit on an IoL proc and just cancel the DP buff when you absolutely need the heal to go out.
It's inconvenient, but it's not insurmountable. Again, it's just paying people to play smart instead of spam. It just separates out the good players who can weave it in from the bad.
Not trying to troll but let me guess, you only play holy from time to time.
I have a query on the subject of Glyph of Flash of Light, and the spell Beacon of Light.
I searched for this (and didn't find a specific mention), so I'll ask it finally:
Say you Beacon of Light the maintank, then start using FoL's on everyone in your 5man group. Would the HoT's from FoL Glyph'd bounce to the main tank? Or since they're simply overhealing hots, they effectively do nothing, and do not bounce to the BoL'd MT?
Sorry for the ignorant question, but it could provide a very interesting mechanic to maintank healing: not healing him.
I have a query on the subject of Glyph of Flash of Light, and the spell Beacon of Light.
I searched for this (and didn't find a specific mention), so I'll ask it finally:
Say you Beacon of Light the maintank, then start using FoL's on everyone in your 5man group. Would the HoT's from FoL Glyph'd bounce to the main tank? Or since they're simply overhealing hots, they effectively do nothing, and do not bounce to the BoL'd MT?
Sorry for the ignorant question, but it could provide a very interesting mechanic to maintank healing: not healing him.
HoT's don't tick if the target is at full health. Beacon only redirects effective healing .
The interesting thing I found about Beacon while I was testing was that it appeared as though the "beacon heal" was treated like the heal that "procced" it. That is if I did a Holy Shock and it didn't crit then if the beacon heal did crit I would get Infusion of Light.
Note that this may have been altered since the last build as I haven't had a chance to test holy recently.
The choice they made for auras has actually been bothering me, and I wanted to write a few words on it.
Retribution Aura simply fits much better as the prot paladin's aura. They're the ones getting hit, and it seems only natural that they should be the ones with the ability to improve it (imp. ret aura talent and then some prot-centric talent boosts if needed). Currently, I don't see devotion aura, even with the 6% extra healing as being worth using. The extra bit of armor doesn't feel like a lot, and when tanking, I'd much rather run ret aura anyway.
My initial feeling is that they should scrap devotion aura completely. Move ret aura to the "prot" aura and make adjustments to existing ret talents to boost it in the direction of what prot would want. Then give ret it's own aura.
If they were to stick with things the way they are now, they need to improve devotion aura. How to do that? I'm not sure, to be honest. I was toying around with the idea that imp. dev. aura would instead read "increases the armor bonus granted by devotion aura by X% of your armor value". This way it scales. Another thought would be to roll the stupid resistance auras into devotion aura (I see no reason why they need to be separate auras).
Another idea would be to make Kings the ret aura. This is a return to the old days when ret provided kings. Put it somewhere after 20 points in retribution, and if you'd want to add more effects to it (such as increased damage done or healing received or haste or what have you), you can add those as improved talents. As the ret 21 pointer, it'd be a fairly easy thing to pick up and would separate ret paladins from others in terms of what good buffs they bring to a party.
I understand what you are saying Rozetta, but I think a better solution would be to have a talent similar to enhancement's static shock, where you could proc Retribution Aura off an offensive attack (at this point it would almost certainly need to replace a current talent). And while Devotion Aura might not be overwhelming Protection Paladins, it does seems logically placed. Concentration Aura feels lacking, especially it's secondary effect, and with the spell push back overhaul.
Most of the aura talents feel fairly weak at the moment. Hopefully the "selfless buffer" talent rework that happened for Death Knights and Druids gets added into the aura talents for Paladins. Devotion Aura giving you extra armor, Retribution Aura giving you some extra damage and Concentration Aura giving you.. something, would certainly make those talents more appealing.
Consider that a Holy Paladin can get the 8% holy crit from Ret at level 70 without JoTP, Beacon and Kings. At level 80 and assuming 51 Holy you lose only/still 3% holy crit from ret when picking up Kings.
Though as a PVE ret paladin I find it more difficult not to pick up Kings, unless you really want 15% INT from Holy or Spiritual Focus.
No, Heart of the Crusader does not stack. It generates its own "physical" debuff that indicates the 3% crit bonus. A second Judging Paladin will not apply his own HOTC debuff.
On Auras:
I feel that Holy is lacking in this department - Improved Concentration Aura is great for PvP, sure, but running unimproved Retribution or Devotion is quite lackluster if you don't need the pushback resistance/spell-lock reduction. A Ret Paladin is going to run his own, better Ret Aura, while Improved Devotion Aura is too deep in Prot for Holy to grab.
Ret only got Retribution Aura as its stand-in for Sanctity because it's the only "offensively-themed" aura they had available. Sanctity wouldn't have worked on its own because then you'd have 4 auras that you'd want to keep up.
I think Concentration is the weak link here. Devotion's 6% healing bonus is great for progression and scales beautifully, Retribution is great for threat if you're comfortable with the incoming damage (aside from the obvious damage/haste bonus from a Retadin), but then Concentration has no real use in a PvE setting.
The more I think about it, the more I love flyingtoastr's triple Blessing idea: Kings/Sanctuary/Power + Concentration/Devotion/Retribution.
HoT's don't tick if the target is at full health. Beacon only redirects effective healing .
The interesting thing I found about Beacon while I was testing was that it appeared as though the "beacon heal" was treated like the heal that "procced" it. That is if I did a Holy Shock and it didn't crit then if the beacon heal did crit I would get Infusion of Light.
Note that this may have been altered since the last build as I haven't had a chance to test holy recently.
I think I noticed critical redirected heals to restore my mana from Illumination as well the few times I specced for the ability. I'd guess some of it's mechanics are going to change though, I have my doubts it's intended to benefit twice from Healing Light for example, not to mention the gigantic "double crits" you can get with the current mechanic even if those have little real world value.
It's more likely it'll be changed to be based directly on the effective healing done with no potential to crit and with no extra benefit from talents.
buff /bÊŒf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of
Retribution Aura may make sense for a protection aura, but Devotion Aura can be nothing but a protection aura, so it's a bit of a sticky situation. There actually is some sense to it: devotion lowers damage, retribution does damage, concentration works with spells. The real problem is that all of a paladin's base auras (including resistance auras) only matter when they're taking damage. A protadin is the only one designed to take damage, and he has two possible effects (mitigation and threat) that he could desire, which realistically gives him two auras to the retadins none. On the other hand, if you look at it with the eye that these are auras and not self-buffs, it's consistent that a retadin would be giving other people damage-based defensive effects and the protadin would be giving damage-reduction based defensive effects.
The auras need to be changed so that a paladin of a given spec has a real desire to use "their" aura most of the time. Given that Devotion Aura is iconic and must be the prot aura, that poses a design challenge for retribution aura as a damage-return aura. Ret makes more sense as a prot aura than a ret aura, but devotion makes more sense as a prot aura than ret does. You have to make it do enough damage for a retadin that they prefer it, but not enough threat for a protadin. Off the top of my head, a reckoning-style damage-return would mark it as favoring ret a lot more because of 2H vs 1H.
Auras in general didn't translate from WCIII well. Armor isn't nearly as good for mitigation. The biggest flaw is WCIII Auras were meant to buff normal units, and they don't work as well when you're treating each player as a Hero in WoW. You can't make them as powerful as in WCIII, just look at Vampiric Aura, Thorns Aura, and Endurance Aura. The trick is scaling them to a reasonable level while still making them worthwhile.
For Devotion Aura, a tank might get ~1% PhysMitigation and a cloth wearer would be ~7%.
In WC3, you could expect ~4% Damage Reduction with the Paladin's Devotion Aura (+2.5Armor). I don't see a reason Devotion Aura couldn't be a flat damage reduction. The Auras could be 5% damage reduction for each of their class (Devotion Aura being Physical).
I also think the new Concentration Aura (after the pushback change) isn't as appealing as it once was, or at the very least needs something extra. Maybe they could bake 15% lockout reduction into the original Aura and have the talent increase both the pushback and interrupt reduction by an additional 15%.
Also, the wording at the end of Auras is unnecessarily redundant. "Players may only have one Aura on them per Paladin at any one time." Each Paladin can only have one Aura active at any one time, and assuming the same auras don't stack is part of other spells. This entire chunk of the tooltip could be removed and nobody would know.
[edit] Does anyone think Reckoning would be better off like Unfair Advantage, except proc'ing from Dodge/Block/Parry and doing Holy Damage? Especially if SoV becomes the predominate tanking seal, since the extra attack won't do much.
Last edited by DarKNecross : 09/22/08 at 5:58 AM.
I heard Sigurd scored an infinity on Rock Band and ascended to heaven.
I eventually managed to get through PTR (man, the EU ptr realms are reaaaaaally hell to play), and gave a shot to every spec. Prot and Ret feel really good. Holy I couldn't really test, because I could not find a group to run an instance or a raid to see more of it in a real situation.
Has anyone here been healing in Naxx or on the PTR with a BoL build and could provide feedback on it ?
Because it only redirects effective heals, and the fact that there are faster raid healers, I can see this talent being close to useless, or at least too much unreliable when there are other healers around to top people up before you.
If it took into account total paladin healing, or total effective healing on the target (thus redirecting other raid healers heal) it would be great, but then maybe too overpowered in some situation (i.e. 2c2 where the pal remains out of LoS and overheal both himself and his friend through BoL)
Also, I was wondering if the combined use of FL and HS, and some instant or not HL in emergency situation felt a sufficient toolkit ? I know that we shouldn't compare with today's situation, but HL rank 7-9 are being used a lot, as a medium heal between FL and HL11. Do you feel we're missing a spell to heal in the between or is it fine as it is ?
I saw a report where the healing pallies had some sort of 33/x/38 build with Jotw, is it really the most effective healing build at the moment on the beta ?
?
I can't wait to see the next polish pass on holy. Ret and Prot get the main picture, it is then about tweaking numbers, but the general idea is there. Holy is still missing something.
If you're the only healer on Patchwerk you're pretty much fucked anyway. During those times that you really need Plea you should really just notify your other healers and they can pick up the slack during your downtime. You can sit on an IoL proc and just cancel the DP buff when you absolutely need the heal to go out.
It's inconvenient, but it's not insurmountable. Again, it's just paying people to play smart instead of spam. It just separates out the good players who can weave it in from the bad.
Sorry for my previous tone, I'll try again hopefully without managing to do something stupid.
Why do you assume future fights will allow that when most of current content doesn't? Spirit regen got overbuffed just because FSR proved to be almost impossible to use.
Also, how is having another healer picking up the slack a good solution? Isn't that effectively just switching mana between healers? You get some mana back while the other healer burns more?
Sorry for my previous tone, I'll try again hopefully without managing to do something stupid.
Why do you assume future fights will allow that when most of current content doesn't? Spirit regen got overbuffed just because FSR proved to be almost impossible to use.
Also, how is having another healer picking up the slack a good solution? Isn't that effectively just switching mana between healers? You get some mana back while the other healer burns more?
They did mention that they balance encounters around the classes, not the other way around. If Paladins can't sustain their normal healing in Sunwell-esque encounters because there's no time to take that HPS hit, fights or class mechanics would probably cater to that. They admitted Sunwell had a lot of movement and AoE damage to counter Paladin healing and increase the effectiveness of the other healers. I can think of a lot of examples in Naxx where you can use Divine Plea unhindered, actually. The only fights where it doesn't seem feasible are Patchwerk, Faerlina, and maybe Razuvious. The other fights give you a window to use Divine Plea without compromising HPS.
Even then, it's only going to last ~7 seconds with 30% Spell Haste, and you don't have to stop casting. While 50% does seem severe, I expect a talent/glyph to reduce that.
I heard Sigurd scored an infinity on Rock Band and ascended to heaven.
Has anyone here been healing in Naxx or on the PTR with a BoL build and could provide feedback on it ?
I was healing Naxx10 last week. We did Spider and Military Quarters and tried (and failed) Patchwerk. I did have BoL build but it didn't work. It's worth noting that BoL has never worked while I've been holy. I have no idea why this is the case since I've seen other paladins having it work perfectly.
We had 2 healers, me and a priest. It goes without saying that raid-wide CoH spam wiped my FoL+HS to the floor during trash. Also most of the fight recount showed that I did half the healing the priest did but that's obviously because I was tank healing (exception being Razuvious where we did similar numbers).
Anub'Rekhan went pretty smooth but I lost the tank at Faerlina during early Enrage as I wasn't quite prepared to it. Maexxna was intense and I had to pot once but other than that it went ok.
First really tight fight for mana was Razuvious where I found myself more or less spamming HL. Gothik (live side) was really easy to heal in comparison. We actually had our priest die at the phase transition but our paladin tank was able to taunt Gothik through the door so I was solohealing p2. For 4h our druid respecced to resto. Only problem during this fight was that I had to move a lot with my tank. Raid damage at my spot was easily manageable even for a paladin.
Patchwerk on the other hand was horrible to heal. I was healing Hateful-tank and I couldn't find any sustainable "rotation" to the incoming damage. Due to mana problems I had to "downrank" my rotation too much which lead to tank death (>.<) - this even with generous DP usage (during that time the MS-effect didn't even apply). We didn't try another time as our dps was far too low.
Generally I noticed I was a lot more "on my toes" using the current spells than I'm currently in the live. Now that downranked HL8 cannot be used as a "cushion" anymore I find myself spamming FoL and at the event of larger damage spike pray your heal lands in time. Holy Shock being on cooldown lead me to spam the button in vain more than once when quick heal was needed.
Sacred Shield seemed really un-intuitive. You, as a healer, get next to no feedback what it really does. I casted it on a "maybe I should put this up now" -basis.
All in all healing Naxx10 wasn't my best experience as a holy paladin. This all could be very different had the accursed BoL worked even once during the Beta.
09/21/08, 10:30 PM
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