SoR may be all-around seal, scaling with both SP and AP.
SoV, intended for tanking - scaling with SP.
SoB - manaregen via damage DPS seal - scaling with AP
SoComm - ?, but probably scaling with both AP and SP as premier DPS seal.
It needs to be mentioned at this point that every scaling with SP scales with additional multiplicative 0.3 coefficient with AP for talented Ret.
Also, the fact that judgements require an active seal means that holy paladins will have to reapply something every 30 sec to keep judging, and this something can be either SoV or SoR depeding on final mechanic of SoV stack ownership and presense of Prot/Ret pall.
I've been playing around with this spreadsheet for a few days, trying to get a good indicator of how much of a DPS increase the changes actually are. I've done my best to account for as many factors as I can, but another pair of eyes may pick up something that I did not.
The spreadsheet assumes you're hitting everything as it comes off cooldown on time, and that you're using rank 1 consecrate.
Just enter your stats in the yellow boxes (raid buffed). You will also need to set your talents and raid buffs (non-stat buffs, ie armor pen, dmg modifiers etc). Put a 1 next to the Seal you want to use, and a 0 next to the others. There are panels displaying most information I think you will need, how much everything will hit for, your SoC proc rate, side by side comparisons for SoC, SoB and SoR (included it due to SD changes making it *almost* viable). And ofcourse the spreadsheet will add them all up and give you an overall DPS figure.
If you want to disable any talents/abilities, this can be done by putting a 0 as its value. This allows you to disable all the new talents and switch to Old Windfury to use it as a current DPS indicator to compare with your DPS after the changes.
In my experience it seems pretty accurate, and estimates a 700-800dps increase personally with the new changes. I'm ofcourse open to suggestions (keep in mind its a relatively new spreadsheet, the data input is relatively simple).
Note: Moved the post here from the ret dps thread, its not a dupe.
Not sure if anyone has noticed this, but in terms of a 2 pala set up, one of the major issues of a Ret Pala is the limitations on the imp buffs the 2 palas can bring to the raid.
Assuming that the most common blessing/aura setup will be BoK+impBoM+impBoW, impDevo+impRet.
If 2 holy palas were used, a sheathbot + BoL/Divine Guardian pala could easily cover all these buff
If 1 holy + 1 prot pala was used, if the holy pala was a sheathboth the buffs could be easily covered.
Now, if we take a ret pala, without seriously gimping themselves its impossible for them to take imp BoW, however they can just about take BoK. This would leave the holy pala needing to take bom/w+devo. However its impossible for a sheatbot to do this and it's also not possible to take BoL+impDevo+impBoM
This means in a 2 pala setup including a Ret pala, either theres going to be some gimp specs flying around all the raid will miss out on some important improved buffs.
I hope blizz re-does the talent trees slightly to address this fact.
Not sure if anyone has noticed this, but in terms of a 2 pala set up, one of the major issues of a Ret Pala is the limitations on the imp buffs the 2 palas can bring to the raid.
Assuming that the most common blessing/aura setup will be BoK+impBoM+impBoW, impDevo+impRet.
If 2 holy palas were used, a sheathbot + BoL/Divine Guardian pala could easily cover all these buff
If 1 holy + 1 prot pala was used, if the holy pala was a sheathboth the buffs could be easily covered.
Now, if we take a ret pala, without seriously gimping themselves its impossible for them to take imp BoW, however they can just about take BoK. This would leave the holy pala needing to take bom/w+devo. However its impossible for a sheatbot to do this and it's also not possible to take BoL+impDevo+impBoM
This means in a 2 pala setup including a Ret pala, either theres going to be some gimp specs flying around all the raid will miss out on some important improved buffs.
I hope blizz re-does the talent trees slightly to address this fact.
Yes this is really a problem. Therefore I hope blizzard makes blessing of kings a baseline spell.
Improved BoM, working with Rank 10 BoM, will add 0.2*300 = 60 AP, which, while nice, is not remotely important. In Ret/Holy combination Ret will provide Ret aura and BoK while Holy, going with 51+x/y/0 build will provide Devotion aura and Imp. BoW/Normal BoM.
The question is - how important is Concentration aura (it's improved component is useful, situationally, on silence fight from what I gathered). May having to have Concentration/Retribution/Devotion necessitate bringing 3 paladins to raids?
Last edited by Ellerain : 07/21/08 at 5:24 AM.
Reason: Grammar and some minor corrections for clarity
I apologize for bringing up Beacon of Light again, but if I calculated the numbers right the spell currently suffers from the issue that it's too good when hitting a large amount of targets. How can a spell be too good? Threat.
Let's say we take a fictional situation with the 10 targets in 10 yards melee group people mentioned before. Incoming AoE DPS on these people is a steady 1000 through an aura that's constantly ticking throughout the fight. Our Holy Paladin counters this by putting up two Beacons of Light on two of the people in this group.
Now luckily for our Paladin, Paladin healing threat is halved on top of the fact that healing already gives half as much threat as healing done. Meaning we're at a 250 threat per second per target in this scenario. But with 10 targets, that's 2500 threat per second total, and in practice the Paladin will be generating more threat as I assume he's not sitting there doing nothing in the 12 seconds after casting his second Beacon of Light before the first one fades.
Now I obviously can't speak for what kind of threat tanks will produce in WotLK, but that's a lot of threat regardless. Unless the spell generates no threat it's going to give trouble with threat for the fights in which it is a great healing spell compared to the other raid wide healing spells.
buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of
Improved BoM, working with Rank 10 BoM will add 0.2*300 = 60 AP, which, while nice, is not remotely important. In Ret/Holy combination Ret will provide Ret aura and BoK while Holy, going with 51+x/y/0 build will provide Devotion aura and Imp. BoW/Normal BoM.
The question is - how important is Concentration aura (it's improved component is useful, situationally, on silence fight, from what I gathered from being healed on, Nalorakk, for an exapmple). May having Concentration/Retribution/Devotion necessitate bringing 3 paladins to raids?
I have also asked myself how useful the improved concentration aura will be. It is extremly important in pvp, no question, but in raids? A lot will depend on how blizzard creates the boss encounters in wotlk. A lot of classes already have 70% spellpushback-reduction. So that this part of the improved aura would be wasted. On the other hand you can only reach 100% if you have the concentration aura active, so you could argue, if you need it anyway, you can also improve it.
At the moment it looks like you want to bring 3 paladins to the raid for the auras but only 2 are needed for blessings (ignoring retripalas, enhanceshammys and hunters who would all benefit from 3 blessings).
I apologize for bringing up Beacon of Light again, but if I calculated the numbers right the spell currently suffers from the issue that it's too good when hitting a large amount of targets. How can a spell be too good? Threat.
Let's say we take a fictional situation with the 10 targets in 10 yards melee group people mentioned before. Incoming AoE DPS on these people is a steady 1000 through an aura that's constantly ticking throughout the fight. Our Holy Paladin counters this by putting up two Beacons of Light on two of the people in this group.
Now luckily for our Paladin, Paladin healing threat is halved on top of the fact that healing already gives half as much threat as healing done. Meaning we're at a 250 threat per second per target in this scenario. But with 10 targets, that's 2500 threat per second total, and in practice the Paladin will be generating more threat as I assume he's not sitting there doing nothing in the 12 seconds after casting his second Beacon of Light before the first one fades.
Now I obviously can't speak for what kind of threat tanks will produce in WotLK, but that's a lot of threat regardless. Unless the spell generates no threat it's going to give trouble with threat for the fights in which it is a great healing spell compared to the other raid wide healing spells.
Honestly I dont think it will be too much to worry about. I find it unlikely that any individual will be able to receive BoL twice from the same paladin. Now if BoL after spell coefficients etc could reach 6000/15 seconds, this would be 400hps or 100tps per target. Thus the maximum threat possible if all 25 targets were hit would be 2500tps. Looking at prot paladins as an example, having 2 new abilities to include in our rotation and the buffs elsewhere, i feel that out-threating a holy palading will not be an issue
Honestly I dont think it will be too much to worry about. I find it unlikely that any individual will be able to receive BoL twice from the same paladin. Now if BoL after spell coefficients etc could reach 6000/15 seconds, this would be 400hps or 100tps per target. Thus the maximum threat possible if all 25 targets were hit would be 2500tps. Looking at prot paladins as an example, having 2 new abilities to include in our rotation and the buffs elsewhere, i feel that out-threating a holy palading will not be an issue
Unless I'm mistaken the spell works by putting a buff on a single player, and then in a 10 yard range around this player Beacon of Light heals people. So in a group of 10 people standing close together, you could put Beacon of Light on two different people. To put names to it, let's say I put one Beacon of Light on a rogue by the name Slicer, and a second Beacon of Light on a Warrior by the name of Bacon. They're both standing within 10 yards of the rest of the melee, meaning that I'd have two Beacons of Light healing the entire melee group.
buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of
Unless I'm mistaken the spell works by putting a buff on a single player, and then in a 10 yard range around this player Beacon of Light heals people. So in a group of 10 people standing close together, you could put Beacon of Light on two different people. To put names to it, let's say I put one Beacon of Light on a rogue by the name Slicer, and a second Beacon of Light on a Warrior by the name of Bacon. They're both standing within 10 yards of the rest of the melee, meaning that I'd have two Beacons of Light healing the entire melee group.
I understand what you mean by this, and it is the most likely way that the spell will function.
However I would also guess there is some mechanics involved which means that someone who is withing 10 yards of a person with BoL would get a non-stacking BoL buff which ticks for the healing.
However theres lots of unknowns. Just hope some of us can get a beta invite to test this all out.
On a side note, just saw some basic beta testing. SoR seems to scale at 14% with AP and 28% with SP for a 2.6 speed weapon.
Unless I'm mistaken the spell works by putting a buff on a single player, and then in a 10 yard range around this player Beacon of Light heals people. So in a group of 10 people standing close together, you could put Beacon of Light on two different people. To put names to it, let's say I put one Beacon of Light on a rogue by the name Slicer, and a second Beacon of Light on a Warrior by the name of Bacon. They're both standing within 10 yards of the rest of the melee, meaning that I'd have two Beacons of Light healing the entire melee group.
If your melee group is 12 players, the threat effect will still be the same as healing 25 with one Beacon, thus Bellator's math still applies. That being said, it is possible to imagine situation where you put 3 beacons or 2 beacons healing 25 people at the same time or simply 1 beacon in bad time (i.e. transition, knockback, early in fight). The situations like this are are to be left at players' discretion, as with powerful tools comes greater responsibility. What is important here is that under normal circumstances (midway through the fight (solid threat lead), affecting 7-10 players or outright during non-threat phase) beacon will not cause you to suddenly ninja aggro. And should situation turn grim you will always have Divine Shield + Hand of Salvation combo (now with added 30% raidwide damage reduction!).
On a side note, just saw some basic beta testing. SoR seems to scale at 14% with AP and 28% with SP for a 2.6 speed weapon.
I just want to clarify:
Looking at the Spell Coefficients Think Tank page, SoR is listed as scaling at 26% with SP for a 2.6 speed weapon (if I read that right)
Does that mean SoR is getting an unequivocal buff, given that it will now scale with AP at no loss to its SP scaling, in fact gained a small amount of SP scaling, and will crit for 2x?
My current Armory lists my AP at 460 and my spell damage at 394.
Ignoring the base amount, Live SoR would deal (394 * 0.26) or 102 damage per swing, whereas WOTLK SoR would deal ((394 * 0.28) + (460 * 0.14)), or 174 damage per swing.
Looking at the Spell Coefficients Think Tank page, SoR is listed as scaling at 26% with SP for a 2.6 speed weapon (if I read that right)
Does that mean SoR is getting an unequivocal buff, given that it will now scale with AP at no loss to its SP scaling, in fact gained a small amount of SP scaling, and will crit for 2x?
My current Armory lists my AP at 460 and my spell damage at 394.
Ignoring the base amount, Live SoR would deal (394 * 0.26) or 102 damage per swing, whereas WOTLK SoR would deal ((394 * 0.28) + (460 * 0.14)), or 174 damage per swing.
Is that correct?
I'm not on beta unfortunately, but everything I hear indicates that SoR is getting a nice big buff yes.
Now when you consider that in a raid, with BS, SoE, unleashed rage etc etc it is probably quite possible to hit 2kAP as a prot pala, i imagine SoR could be hitting 400 per swing.
Gotta remember that you are losing JotC so things will most likely come out about even with S/JoR.
On another note: 30 man raids would make things so much easier. Having three potential spots for every class just makes so much more sense than having 2.5 slot per class.
Gotta remember that you are losing JotC so things will most likely come out about even with S/JoR.
On another note: 30 man raids would make things so much easier. Having three potential spots for every class just makes so much more sense than having 2.5 slot per class.
They mentioned in the patch notes that JotC effect will be rolled into the abilities, thus one would hope the likes of S/JoR are acting as if JotC was on every mob you hit. However I doubt we will get the full benefit.
They mentioned in the patch notes that JotC effect will be rolled into the abilities, thus one would hope the likes of S/JoR are acting as if JotC was on every mob you hit. However I doubt we will get the full benefit.
Improved BoM, working with Rank 10 BoM, will add 0.2*300 = 60 AP, which, while nice, is not remotely important. In Ret/Holy combination Ret will provide Ret aura and BoK while Holy, going with 51+x/y/0 build will provide Devotion aura and Imp. BoW/Normal BoM.
Another possibility in this configuration is for the Ret pally to provide Imp BoM/ normal BoW while the Holy one will provide BoK, as there is nothing really good in the protection tree for a PVE speced Ret paladin beyond the first tier.
Something about Beacon that is currently speculated is that since the Beacon is actually a buff placed on a target, and the Beacon pulses healing to everyone around it, the person with the buff may gain the threat, not the Paladin who placed the Beacon (unless he carries the Beacon, of course).
This is how (IIRC) Prayer of Mending works right now.
Hula: Well, maybe I'm assuming too much. Is there a situation where you'd place it on a melee group that does not include a tank, and thus place it on that tank?
Sanctuary is not a good blessing. Notice the references in this thread to the fact that it hasn't been fixed or removed? Not that I (or others) won't use it, but if I have to choose between Kings and Sanc, I know which one I'm taking.
That said, changing Kings to a trainable ability would be great. If they can do it with Shield Slam, no reason they can't do it with Kings.
The Simplest solution would be to just have Sanctuary be a passive ability instead of a Blessing. Really, Prot Paladins were the only ones using it with any regularity to begin with.
"When you block, you also do X holy damage" Where X is some sort of level scaling, or maybe even off of Block Value. I'm sure you could make the damage mitigation portion scale as well, but that always seemed secondary in my experience. I've always just used Sanctuary as a 'Holy Shield Spike' if you will.
I mostly have to echo the theme of Protection Bloat. Really hope the tree gets streamlined/condensed some more. Speaking primarily as a 5-10 Man tank, there are a lot of things I will 'need' to take due to the required flexibility in those smaller scale settings.
One thing I question though, is the assumption that Prot/Ret will be off-healers when not preforming their primary roles. While Sheathe/Touched by the Light look like the 'off-heal' talents at first glance, I don't believe that is the intention. I think those talents are simply there to allow Prot/Ret the ability to heal themselves more effectively while soloing or working in small duo/trios. Especially with the new found mobility in Holy Healing, I have a hard time imagining a Prot Paladin finding a fight where it isn't tanking, but is able to put on a Heal suit and play whack-a-mole healing. (Maybe my imagination is limited)
Specifically for Protection, it will just cut down on the number of FoLights I need to refill my health bar when doing dailies and the like. Nothing else in the tree suggests I would be healing while not tanking.
Sheathe is similar for Ret. Nothing else in the tree really suggests an off-heal role. It looks like the HoT effect is just a 'gimme' so a Ret Paladin doesn't have to heal itself as often when alone.
Just small secondary effects/perks so a Prot/Ret heal isn't COMPLETELY useless
My only real fear, is the Protection itemization. Now half our abilities will scale off of 'traditional' tank stats, while the other half will remain on the current Spell casting stats. Didn't we just spend the last couple of years undoing that kind of stat mixture with Ret, only to put it into Prot?
Then again, too early to tell and all that.
Small Side Note: Guarded by the Light really should be a mana return instead of a mana discount. It would help the small/solo Prot play a great deal. Alleviate the "Pull, Pull, Drink" issue.
My only real fear, is the Protection itemization. Now half our abilities will scale off of 'traditional' tank stats, while the other half will remain on the current Spell casting stats. Didn't we just spend the last couple of years undoing that kind of stat mixture with Ret, only to put it into Prot?
Then again, too early to tell and all that.
I don't think this will be a problem, as I'm actually going to get more spell damage from Touched by the Light's STA conversion than actual spell damage on my gear.
By the way, anyone could post a screenshot how our standard +healing epics will change into spelldamage one? It is hard to judge at the moment how good WotLK rare items are without knowing the healing -> SPD conversion on old items.
Ah, this is counter to what I was reading on the WoW paladin forum. Thanks for correcting that, and thanks for the extra testing.
Also, it seems that the current judgement effects attached to SoW/SoL/SoJ are meaningless, since the judgement you get is purely determined by which judgement spell you cast. I wonder if these will be replaced with instant effects, or what?
Originally Posted by Ellerain
One probable seal lineup is:
SoR may be all-around seal, scaling with both SP and AP.
SoV, intended for tanking - scaling with SP.
SoB - manaregen via damage DPS seal - scaling with AP
SoComm - ?, but probably scaling with both AP and SP as premier DPS seal.
I think twisting SoV with another seal will become pretty common, with the changes to SoV making it much easier to maintain. If it's still the case that only one SoV stack can be up on a target, then it'll be a strategic choice which paladin starts it. If you have a paladin tanking, then that's the obvious choice. Otherwise if you have a holy and a ret paladin you probably want the holy paladin to start the stack off so that he "owns" it and then let the ret paladin maintain it.
Having a SoV stack active would then let a 43/0/28 paladin (a hybrid healer with Judgements of the Wise) judge Vengeance every 8 seconds for a nice mana return for the group. (I'm assuming JoV on a 5-stack will still outdamage JoR/JoC/JoB.)
Originally Posted by Chicken
Unless I'm mistaken the spell works by putting a buff on a single player, and then in a 10 yard range around this player Beacon of Light heals people. So in a group of 10 people standing close together, you could put Beacon of Light on two different people. To put names to it, let's say I put one Beacon of Light on a rogue by the name Slicer, and a second Beacon of Light on a Warrior by the name of Bacon. They're both standing within 10 yards of the rest of the melee, meaning that I'd have two Beacons of Light healing the entire melee group.
WoWhead shows a "beacon of light" buff. I was assuming this was a buff placed on all people healed by the beacon, and that this mechanic was intended to prevent beacon-stacking.
If that's not the case, and you can stack beacons as you describe, that does make the spell look a lot more useful.
Originally Posted by Fordel
One thing I question though, is the assumption that Prot/Ret will be off-healers when not preforming their primary roles. While Sheathe/Touched by the Light look like the 'off-heal' talents at first glance, I don't believe that is the intention. I think those talents are simply there to allow Prot/Ret the ability to heal themselves more effectively while soloing or working in small duo/trios. Especially with the new found mobility in Holy Healing, I have a hard time imagining a Prot Paladin finding a fight where it isn't tanking, but is able to put on a Heal suit and play whack-a-mole healing. (Maybe my imagination is limited).
I'm thinking the damage buffs might be enough to make us better at melee dps when we don't need to tank or heal. DPS'ing with a sword and board cycling Hammer and Shield could do decent dps while mana lasts at least, and SoB/SotM would give you some mana regen. (Sadly it appears that HotR has a one-hand weapon requirement.)
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
07/21/08, 4:07 AM
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