If I wanted to be in your raid, I'd show you the calculations of what kind of sustained healing you get out of FoL spam with sheath and a 90% crit rate. On the other hand, I don't actually, so you'll have to do the math yourself. It's pretty amazing for anything but main tank healing.
You also obviously don't understand how mana will be working in wotlk: we won't have enough of it. That's the game-plan - make regeneration and conservation actually important parts of healing again. In Wotlk, bosses won't be doing as much melee-ownage/silencing - GC is trying to make the classes evenly useful again (and melee-silencing bosses don't allow protadins to maintank).
And use some kind of punctuation to separate your sentences and clauses, please. Your post made my eyes water a bit.
First of all you obviously shouldn't make assumptions about my understanding. The things I post are generally based on personal experience/theorycrafting. I have healed on Beta and will continue to do so until Beta is closed so I'm fairly sure I have a firm understanding of at least the entry level raid mana requirements and the mana conservation game. Furthermore it is fundamentally broken if paladins are required to spec that deep into our DPS tree in order to get the regen we require to raid. So claiming that we won't be able to raid without the 20% of our mana being returned every 8-10 seconds is mildly daft at best.
I'm going to make the assumption, based on your linked guild and armory, that you've never healed in Sunwell or any of the harder Tier 6 level fights. Please correct me if I'm wrong but if you had you would know that the mana conservation "game" is, in fact, already active for Holy Paladins. We already have to conserve and watch our mana levels because we, unlike priests and druids, actually can't do anything if we go oom too quickly. You would also no that paladins make horrible raid healers and spamming FoL (even if it has a HoT component) simply won't do for heavy aoe fights. You need a multi-target heal for aoe damage and Paladins don't have one.
Finally while I appreciate this forum's high standards in regards to basic grammar, attacking me over some slight errors I've made in previous posts simply reeks of intellectual weakness.
First of all you obviously shouldn't make assumptions about my understanding. The things I post are generally based on personal experience/theorycrafting. I have healed on Beta and will continue to do so until Beta is closed so I'm fairly sure I have a firm understanding of at least the entry level raid mana requirements and the mana conservation game. Furthermore it is fundamentally broken if paladins are required to spec that deep into our DPS tree in order to get the regen we require to raid. So claiming that we won't be able to raid without the 20% of our mana being returned every 8-10 seconds is mildly daft at best.
I'm going to make the assumption, based on your linked guild and armory, that you've never healed in Sunwell or any of the harder Tier 6 level fights. Please correct me if I'm wrong but if you had you would know that the mana conservation "game" is, in fact, already active for Holy Paladins. We already have to conserve and watch our mana levels because we, unlike priests and druids, actually can't do anything if we go oom too quickly. You would also no that paladins make horrible raid healers and spamming FoL (even if it has a HoT component) simply won't do for heavy aoe fights. You need a multi-target heal for aoe damage and Paladins don't have one.
Finally while I appreciate this forum's high standards in regards to basic grammar, attacking me over some slight errors I've made in previous posts simply reeks of intellectual weakness.
I'm not so worried over grammar. I'm ok with separating thoughts with linebreaks, with ellipses, even a | would be cool..
You'd assume right, I've never healed in sunwell. I don't anticipate I'll be healing in a T9 raid anytime soon either. I mostly am interested in the 10man raids, and in those, FoL spam is pretty good for raid healing (it's pretty much a very cheap regrowth).
I'm aware that paladins are bad raid healers at the moment, but I believe that doubling our output takes care of that in all but the most evenly spread situations - most places we talk about aoe damage we don't really mean aoe, we mean randomly targeted/distributed.
It would be broken, if it were 'required' to raid. I'm hoping that it winds up being sufficient, rather than required.
Confirmed. The tooltip still reads 10 seconds(minus hastE) and 50% reduction, but it lasts 15s and reports no healing done for heals that finish during its duration.
I'm not sure what this is supposed to solve. I guess Paladins are supposed to have no active regeneration at all until they are completely out of mana, at which point they pop this skill, regenerate some mana, and blow all of that mana again, putting us at a much lower level of efficacy. This basically means that Paladins have a single mana pool to work with, because 15 seconds of no healing means another healer has to do your job and theirs during that time, and again every minute and change as you re-pop Divine Plea. So, despite being the class with the least powerful regeneration methods, we have been gifted with the least powerful regeneration method to compensate. I don't understand this change.
Regardless of whether this is a good or bad idea, it's a bad way to implement it. Much better would be "Any healing spell you cast cancels the regeneration effect." It's the same restriction, but if you decide you want to end DP early and heal, you can just start healing instead of having to click off DP first.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
Hamfisted is the word that comes to mind. Not really at all possible sure that it is even close to feasible to think of what the hell Blizzard is thinking with this change. Disappointing to say the least, new ability I won't really use except in arena out of LOS, or fights with breaks.
Combined with GC's post that DP is supposed to be a Holy Pally's main source of regen this either means they are going to put in a reduction talent in deep holy or they basically don't want any paladins speccing holy.
The problem with a reduction talent is that its not needed. The regen you gain isn't enough for a Ret or Prot Paladin to be spamming heals during the duration; these specs will wait for the duration to end, and then heal if that's the plan. The ONLY person the healing reduction hurts is the Holy Paladin. Since that's the case, why have it in the first place? If the intention is to restrict Ret or Prot healing, I'd say that's handled by the fact that these specs have small mana pools and regen very little, allowing very little healing to be done with the DP mana. They have to be making this change with the specific intention of hurting Holy Paladins who use this ability. Why, I could not say.
Last edited by Rasputin : 09/24/08 at 11:02 PM.
Reason: typo
The problem with a reduction talent is that its not needed. The regen you gain isn't enough for a Ret or Prot Paladin to be spamming heals during the duration; these specs will wait for the duration to end, and then heal if that's the plan.
And if DP didn't give a healing debuff they wouldn't have to do that. So it affects Prot and Ret healing, doesn't it?
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
And if DP didn't give a healing debuff they wouldn't have to do that. So it affects Prot and Ret healing, doesn't it?
No.
I pop DP, and at level 80 in my gear, and regen ~1500 mana, at the rate of 300 per 3 seconds. This is enough for 4 Flash of Lights or 1 Holy Light. If I'm out of mana and need to heal, the game is over. A Flash every 4 seconds isn't saving anything, and a Holy light every 15 is saving even less. I suppose I may have exaggerated a small bit, in that clearly it has SOME affect on Ret healing, but this change from 50% is such a minimal impact on when and how I would heal as ret in arenas, world pvp, 5 mans or raids that I honestly don't care much at all about this change for my own use. Let me just revise my statement.
This change affects Prot and Ret healing to such a minimal extent that the only possible rationale behind it is to hurt Holy Paladin healing during DPs duration.
That's as true as I can make it. Pardon the hyperbole.
Are they trying to fix the wrong problem? For example their numbers show that Paladins In Naxx are expending massive amounts of mana on healing far beyond any other class? Except the regen is mostly from Judgements of the wise and not Divine Plea.
Remember this was in response to talk of incoming Ret nerfs.
I believe the only change we are making right now (aside from some general bug fixing) is a change to Divine Plea. Divine Plea will have a longer duration but the same total percent mana returned per cooldown.
I fail at finding links. my memory is the first mention of Divine plea was in reponse to a topic about Holy Paladins going oom in 5 mans.
I pop DP, and at level 80 in my gear, and regen ~1500 mana, at the rate of 300 per 3 seconds. This is enough for 4 Flash of Lights or 1 Holy Light. If I'm out of mana and need to heal, the game is over. A Flash every 4 seconds isn't saving anything, and a Holy light every 15 is saving even less. I suppose I may have exaggerated a small bit, in that clearly it has SOME affect on Ret healing, but this change from 50% is such a minimal impact on when and how I would heal as ret in arenas, world pvp, 5 mans or raids that I honestly don't care much at all about this change for my own use. Let me just revise my statement.
This change affects Prot and Ret healing to such a minimal extent that the only possible rationale behind it is to hurt Holy Paladin healing during DPs duration.
That's as true as I can make it. Pardon the hyperbole.
Oh, sorry. I thought you were talking about the presence of a healing debuff at all only hurting Holy, instead of talking about the change from 50% to 100% only hurting Holy. Now I see what you're saying, and yeah, it makes sense.
The best guess I can come up with is (a) toast is right and there's going to be a Holy talent to remove the healing penalty, and (b) for whatever reason the devs really do think it makes a difference to Prot and Ret whether it's a 50% or 100% debuff, even though you (and I) think it doesn't.
But yeah, it really doesn't make any sense at all unless you assume other changes are coming.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
I was never a fan of holy to begin with, but... wow.
Are blizzard playing the same holy class as the rest of us paladins? Perhaps they are playing Holy Priests instead?
I heard that blizz were intending to change divine plea to fix arena healing.
However... this is a 25% reduction in paladin healing if used every cooldown, which it probably would need to be in a raid situation.
Holy still has a multitude of problems.
1) Paladins still lack an effective AOE healing tool.
2) Paladins still lack a Heal over Time spell
3) Paladins still lack Mana Regeneration tools compared to other classes.
4) Sacred Shield is poorly designed, even if it did scale with damage
5) Mobility has been fixed slightly, although we still rely on RNG for part of our coping with moving.
6) Paladins still suffer the most from silences, interrupts and moving.
I think there is a lot of room for JoL to be manipulated as an AOE healing spell.
Other Specs:
Shield of the Righteous end result was a reduction in scaling, the base damage (with no/little block value) remains the same:
Previously: 211*2.40 = 506 dmg (211= block value of the iLevel 200 shields)
Now: 211*1+300 = 511 dmg
Prot still needs a silence tied to Avenger's Shield.
Prot still needs an 11pt talent, preferably one that increases survivability.
Not sure how our threat is comparing to other classes after the nerfs, but as far as i can see, we were already so far beyond DPS that it didnt matter. However, the DPS of the prot/holy specs seems to be falling rapidly, which is Bad.
I've just given it a quick test and the effect is as stated. Sheath of Light procs generated before Divine Plea activates continue as normal. Your JoL no longer appears to heal yourself on melee hit whilst under the effects of Plea (sorry, should have tested this much more thoroughly including with SoL). Avenging Wrath's +20% healing buff still doesn't allow you to heal whilst under the effects of Plea.
I'm truly left scratching my head over this one. My only guess is that it's intended as a PvP change or that as flyingtoastr says a new talent in holy to counteract the effect is planned. Why it's necessary I don't know, maybe Holy is only supposed to grab one or two ticks rather than the whole duration?
*scratches head*
EDIT: Someone with an 80 Paladin may want to check and see if Sacred Shield got a scaling coeff this time around. Mine is only lvl75 unfortunately.
The problem with a reduction talent is that its not needed. The regen you gain isn't enough for a Ret or Prot Paladin to be spamming heals during the duration; these specs will wait for the duration to end, and then heal if that's the plan. The ONLY person the healing reduction hurts is the Holy Paladin. Since that's the case, why have it in the first place? If the intention is to restrict Ret or Prot healing, I'd say that's handled by the fact that these specs have small mana pools and regen very little, allowing very little healing to be done with the DP mana. They have to be making this change with the specific intention of hurting Holy Paladins who use this ability. Why, I could not say.
I'm curious whether this affects all heals or just healing spells. For example, does it affect returns from your JoL (given that it is coded as your heal now) or Divine Storm?
I'm curious whether this affects all heals or just healing spells. For example, does it affect returns from your JoL (given that it is coded as your heal now) or Divine Storm?
It does affect anything you can "heal" with. Judgement of Light, for example.
Has anyone seen any kind of explanation regarding the changes to Judgment damage? From the nerf of 2h spec and Fanaticism, then the reverting of those changes and the nerfing of Judgment damage, it really does seem like someone at Blizzard is just pushing random buttons on the class balance machine.
Furthermore, I have yet to see any indication that we are actually doing too much damage. The parses of Naxx seemed to show us towards the bottom of the dps where we currently sit.
I'm still /facepalming over the fact that they put an interrupt on HOJ, seems like a cheap gimmick to get tankadins to pick up 3/3 imp HOJ. Judgement of Justice would've made a much more suitable choice as it is on a much shorter CD and you can use other judgements in situations where you don't want to interrupt the cast (RoS phase 2 etc).
I'm still /facepalming over the fact that they put an interrupt on HOJ, seems like a cheap gimmick to get tankadins to pick up 3/3 imp HOJ. Judgement of Justice would've made a much more suitable choice as it is on a much shorter CD and you can use other judgements in situations where you don't want to interrupt the cast (RoS phase 2 etc).
It's pretty clear that they don't want to give us another interrupt. HoJ already functions as an interrupt if the mob is stunnable, but boss mobs are never stunnable.
Unless you're proposing that JoJ is only able to ever interrupt bosses.
I'm still /facepalming over the fact that they put an interrupt on HOJ, seems like a cheap gimmick to get tankadins to pick up 3/3 imp HOJ. Judgement of Justice would've made a much more suitable choice as it is on a much shorter CD and you can use other judgements in situations where you don't want to interrupt the cast (RoS phase 2 etc).
I don't see how it makes any difference outside of a 5-man anyway. Shamans, Rogues, and Warriors already have massively better interrupts that are both on shorter cooldowns and off the GCD. It's just a gimmick for those 5-man bosses.
Faer, the problem with putting the interrupt on Judgement of Justice is akin to the problem with putting a dispel on Arcane Shot: You're making one ability do too much, and it's going to suffer because of it.
You either hold your Judgement cooldown in reserve to anticipate a spell you need to interrupt, which costs DPS, or you spam it on every cooldown to maximize DPS, which renders the interrupt rather meaningless.
Remember that Blizzard took the damage out of Pummel, Shield Slam and Kick, so that's another design decision violated by putting an interrupt on Judgement.
Finally, note that Druids are currently in the same interrupt situation we're in. I think at this point we can assume that any fight where interrupts are mandatory are only going to be found in 25-mans, while 5 and 10-man bosses are going to be designed around simply being able to heal through or otherwise play through whatever it is the boss casts.
I'm not sure why people seem so vehemently opposed to JotW Holy paladins, or why there seems to be resistance about modifying JotW to be less attractive to Holy.
JotW looks a lot better for a lot of potential encounters than deep Holy as things stand now. JotW's return is essentially equivalent to a use of Divine Plea with basically no downside. In return for JotW you give up a little bit of spell power, dubious amount of haste, and Beacon of Light. If it wasn't for Beacon of Light, there'd be no contest at all.
Even if JotW Holy is better for only 'some' fights, it's still potentially a problem because people can respec - possibly even easier in WotLK. The very fact that JotW Holy is significantly better than BoL Holy in any reasonable number of encounters is arguably a problem. The issue is that the benefit from JotW Holy over BoL Holy in the 'right' encounter (where the Paladin can judge at will) is overwhelmingly dominating. If JotW instead provided Holy with a second Divine Plea with no healing downside, it'd still be worth getting. In the ideal case it can provide over 5 times that amount. if WotLK went live today, it would be difficult to justify not respeccing according to the upcoming encounter.
The whole 'let's make Paladins more dynamic healers' push makes JotW even more viable. There's no requirement that it must be used every Judgement cooldown. Even if you waited for Infusion of Light before moving in to judge (assuming such movement is actually necessary) you are still probably looking at 2-3 uses per minute. Why bother with Divine Plea? You can even use Divine Favor to force an Infusion of Light if you have a good opportunity (or expect a good opportunity) to Judge.
Again, it seems like there's a very simple and trivial solution to the problem - don't have it scale so well with mana pool. This seems so straightforward and intuitively obvious that I still don't understand why they haven't changed it. It could either be a fixed value or a fixed value plus slow scaling based on mana pool - or scaling with attack power.
As a side note, JotW also seems clearly better for the soloing Holy Paladin. As things are now, I would expect to be JotW as my 'standard' spec and BoL only when the encounter allows particularly good use of BoL (I feel the latter condition is more demanding than getting good use out of JotW, however...).
Someone mentioned the Seal damage nerf (Avituus I believe).
Assuming Seal of Command + Glyph damage is equal to Seal of Blood damage, and both Seal spells received a 7% damage reduction, this wasn't a huge nerf for PvE.
Even if we assume Seals were doing a robust 40% total damage, the 7% damage reduction is really ~2.8% total damage reduction. Of course, if Seals are doing closer to 25% total damage, it's closer to a 1.75% total damage reduction.
Reverting 2H Spec change more than compensates for the overall Seal damage, assuming you're comparing this patch with the patch directly before it. Of course, Seal of Blood is still doing to do more overall damage because the Judgement damage is higher, and it can double-proc.
In regards to Divine Plea:
Nobody seemed to mention the post GC made about it a couple days ago
Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
Mana Regen -- Divine Plea is what you use when you run out of mana. It's not there to make mana go away -- it's supposed to have situational use. If there was never a decision to use Divine Plea, then we would have just doubled your mana pool. Losing healing effectiveness is supposed to be that decision. Now if you just don't have enough mana to do your job, that's a different problem.(src)
I guess they really do want Paladins to choose between healing or regen. I just find it odd that this appears to be our analogue for Spirit-based regen instead of an analogue for Innervate/Shadowfiend.
I also think the 'Heals canceling Divine Plea' mechanic would work better, since everyone would probably end up macro'ing it to get that effect.
"Divine Plea- Restores 50% of your maximum mana over 15 seconds or until your next heal is cast."
I heard Sigurd scored an infinity on Rock Band and ascended to heaven.
09/24/08, 10:04 PM
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