Mearis

As I said, it will be nerfed so that it is useless for holy but so it allows ret to maintain a basic rotaton. That means using offensive spells, but probably not throwing patch heals and dropping max rank consacrate. Paladins dropping max rank consacrate would be the equilvalent of enh shamans dropping max rank fire nova totems nonstop, which would run them OOM pretty fast.

The most obvious way would be for JOTW to be turned into unleashed rage 2.0, or something that actively requires you to melee the entire time to get the full benefit, or something that scales with the damage you do.

<manly> then my sister calls and proposes the one thing that has never before occured in my entire life

 

exschwizer

Point 1: Fire nova totem does roughly half the damage of consecration according to Wowhead, even calculating consecration with rather underestimated stats, so that's not a legitimate comparison. Not being able to cast a spell that's not worth the mana and gcd does not hurt as much compared to not being able to cast a spell that is.

Point 2: There is no downranking. There is only max rank consecrate, or none.

 

flyingtoastr

You're a bloody fool.

Right now with the way JotW is we can barely (by 3 mana/second) maintain CS, DS, Judgement, and Consecration. If we want to spot heal, we drop Consecration. Throwing hands on retard priests who pull aggro? Drop Consecration. Keep a shield up on a tank? Drop Consecration. We're in the perfect method of regen right now.

Seriously, stop trolling. Why is ret the only class that can't maintain a full DPS rotation? What you're asking is the equivilent of me telling you to stop using SW in your rotations. It's stupid. We should be able to maintain our full DPS rotation with barely enough mana (just like it is now) so we can then chose if we want to full burn or bring the utility, just like every other class.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

GSH

I don't think Consecration should be considered part of the base Ret rotation. You shouldn't be using a full AoE ability on every cooldown, except in AoE situations.

If you have enough mana to use Consecration all the time, you have too much mana.

 

Altirias

For god sake Toastr, keep cool and stop treating stupid all the people that do not share your opinion.
Mearis doesn't say Jotw is too powerfull for rets, he says it's too powerfull for holy. So please keep calm, read, and be assertive yet not agressive.


Since 20% total mana = 37% base mana for a fully raid buffed level 80 paladin, then I don't see why the change would hurt ret so much ? Let's even make it 40% and be done with this endless debate.
Don't you think they might nerf the total mana return when they realise what some holy pals can do with the talent ? Don't you think the proposed change is the lesser of 2 evils ?

 

Mearis

I made the example of fire nova because it is an AoE dps spell, it just so happens that fire nova is shitty for single target DPS. The fact that consacrate is good for single target DPS is just a function of lacking a filler spell to use in that GCD.

Anyway, almost everybody I spoke too thinks that JoTW will get nerfed, I doubt Blizzard listens to anything that any of us say, so let's wait and see. They already announced that ret paladins/mages/rogues will get some fairly hefty PvP nerfs, but it is way too early to guess what those might be.

My guess is they will change it to be 30% or so base mana, and make it require actively meleeing the target for an extended period. They want ret paladins to have enough mana to use their abilities, but they don't want anybody to have endless mana.

This as well.

<manly> then my sister calls and proposes the one thing that has never before occured in my entire life

 

Corronach

You have to understand without consecration we don't have a rotation.

Sure it seems silly using an ae attack in our normal dps rotation but what other buttons can we press? Unlike priests, all our dps abilities come from our talents except judgment and consecrate. And all of them share long cd's.

Also to further go along with what Toastr is saying, if you look at naxx parses on some fights consecrate is the number 1 damage dealer for Paladins (Noth for example). They're balancing around it and we don't have a single target substitute.

 

flyingtoastr

Our DPS is going to be balanced around it though. If they balance it around us not using it then the situations when we can (heavy SA regen via AoE) we do more damage than other classes and you have the 12 year olds screaming "nerf ret". It's the same thing with Exorcism and Holy Wrath artificially inflating our numbers in Naxx against undead bosses.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

◊ Cathela

For what it's worth, I think I read somewhere that a lot of classes are getting dps nerfs this patch. So this may be part of some global re-adjustment of player dps.

Also, it seems that SoR hasn't been nerfed. The effect of SoV being nerfed is that it probably brings SoV much closer to SoR in terms of damage/threat for tanking. Perhaps to the point where whether you have Reckoning or not will make the difference. (I'll try to do the math later today.)

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Mearis

It depends entirely on what % of bosses give inflated mana or are undead. For example, glaives ended up being far too good because every boss in TBC was a demon. If we have more variety and less spells that artificially inflate DPS on particular bosses, then it is easier to obtain balanced DPS rotations.

<manly> then my sister calls and proposes the one thing that has never before occured in my entire life

 

Tilted

When has any valid talent spec been based upon what a blue poster says should or should not be the case? Hell, they said that Titan's Grip for fury warriors was designed to be a no-brainer talent that everyone would want, and it may very well be the single worst talent point any class can spend. Blizzard's intent might very well influence their decisions for changes down the road, but when it comes to present-day game mechanics their opinions effectively mean nothing.

 

Blackthought

Dont feed the troll guys. Mearis is nervous that priests wont be able to drain holy pallies in 3 casts in arenas. That is his angle. When viewed in this light, his screaming for nerfs to holy makes sense.

Where would so-called endless mana have an impact?

PVE

I have endless mana in raids today as T6 holy pally and I am still at the bottom of the meters. You wont see raids of 8 34/0/37 holy paladins come WotLK because they are severely deficient at anything but single target spam.

ARENAS

In 5v5, I am rarely out of mana at the end of the fight win or lose. Teams attempt to CC paladins in 5v5. It will have somewhat of an impact in 3v3 as paladins have no current way to regen mana and a larger impact in 2v2. As I side, Mearis is a priest who wants holy paladins to continue to be fodder in 2v2 and 3v3.

 

Janraea

So a ret paladin lets us keep up perma SS? I'd bet an spriest would too. Doesn't seem like an unreasonable interpretation of the talent, as both of those effects specifically do 'damage' to the player.. Not very clean to make the presence of those classes dramatically alter the effectiveness of our healing though.

 

flyingtoastr

Unless you're spam healing your ret pally it doesn't affect your healing much.

You cast Sacred Shield on yourself. When you take SoB/JoB recoil the shield procs on you. Te next 500 recoil damage can be absorbed by the shield (if incoming damage doesn't do so first).

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

Mearis

Blizzard have said they are going to nerf JoTW for holy paladins, scroll up.

<manly> then my sister calls and proposes the one thing that has never before occured in my entire life

 

tarja

This statement is 100% true of course, but who cares about present-day level 80 game mechanics that only exist on a beta realm that most of us don't even have access to, if Blizzard has specifically stated that they don't intend for those mechanics to still exist down the road when people are actually able to reach level 80 on live servers?

As for all the debate about whether JotW must be left precisely as is because of Ret Paladins, or must be nerfed because of Holy Paladins - what if they just change it to something like 35% base mana instead of 20% total mana. That would be basically the same for Ret in 25 mans, a slight buff for Ret in PVP, and a large nerf to Holy Paladins in 25 mans (but not such a huge nerf that 37/0/34 couldn't be an intriguing arena or 5 man healer spec)


Where was this said? If you're referring to the quote that they don't intend for the premiere healing build to be half Ret, then you're making conclusions that don't necessarily follow from his statement. That statement could easily mean that they intend to buff deep Holy so that it is more attractive than JotW, or it could even mean leaving JotW exactly the same but moving it deeper in the Ret tree.

 

Janraea

I was really meaning the 50% crit on FoL, I just didn't know what the buff was called. You said that it's only up while the shield is, so on a tank it'd be back down quickly - I think that a retadin or spriest both do small enough amounts of damage to themselves that it would be up nearly full time, but till proc continuously.

Or am I misunderstanding, and the +crit only applies to the person with the shield?

 

flyingtoastr

Actually you need to follow your own advice.



Never said a thing about nerfing JotW, just fixing holy so the main healing build isn't half ret.

The crit is part of the shield buff. It affects FoL's going onto that person not outgoing heals, so no it really doesn't help holy at all.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

Spenda

I'd like to suggest that the on going debate about JotW vs. Deep Holy is getting us no where. Both sides of the argument have stated their cases, so unless anyone has any real numbers to post instead of conjecture I'd suggest we wait until the patch goes live to continue the debate. For all we know changes between now and then will make the point moot.

Personally I hope Deep Holy becomes equally viable with a different skill set so we can have two completely reasonable Paladin healing specs with different strengths.

 

Janraea

Well now I feel silly >.< Sorry about the fight, Andrast, looks like FoL spam is still terrible :-)

 

Mearis

They will make JoTW unworkable as a form of mana regeneration for holy. They cannot possibly offer anything nearly as good as well over 3000 mana/5 at the top of the holy tree to replace the current incarnation of JoTW, Vhex has been posting as much for the past 3 pages.

They will most likely leave JoTW in a slightly nerfed form for ret, buff the top of the holy tree with some more variety, and make it so holy paladins cannot use jotw to restore mana.

<manly> then my sister calls and proposes the one thing that has never before occured in my entire life

 

Blackthought

JotW cannot be made unworkable for holy paldins. The only thing that they can do to prevent holy paladins from using it is to move it deep enough so you cant get Holy Shock and JotW. However, since this build is only possible in the high 70s, I dont see why they need to do anything now but fix the holy tree. If you made the 51pt holy talent chain heal, your worries (losing to a paladin in the arena) would not relate to JotW.

P.S. We dont really need or want you in this thread arguing for nerfs. I am sure you can argue for druid nerfs somehow.

 

Helot

Your posting conjecture about what Blizzard will do.

Changing JotW is only one way in which they could 'fix' the problem.

It is far more likely that they will buff Deep Holy to a point where people will go "hmm... I should get that". Look at Destro Locks. DS was *the* staple talent for them, and they buffed thier 51 point talent/deep destro until both were viable, but Deep Destro offered more than 21 demo.

If they think something is so powerful in Ret that healers take it, because the healing tree is lack-luster in the last tiers, I would be very suprised if they left holy untouched and nerfed JotW for ret.

That's telling ret 'sorry, you don't matter. That talent which you love is too powerful for the spec your not'.

Chaith logs on
<zyl> Actually, I do like my paladin. He's fun to play, but don't tell Chaith.
<chaith> Looks like i logged in at the right time
<zyl> ....
<zyl> I pressed enter half a second after you logged on.

 

DarKNecross

This whole debate reminds me of Dreamstate druids in TBC. Albeit, Dreamstate isn't nearly as powerful as JotW, but it's the same "Mana vs. Healing" principle.
The reason why Dreamstate wasn't a good build was because their throughput was terrible. If they make 37+ Holy stronger for healing, Paladins that go for JotW will have infinite mana, but their output is going to stink. Even now, I think Beacon and JotP would be better for raid-wide damage. Why be a mana less healer if you do half the healing of others?

Baseless assumptions propagandizing as facts. You have no idea what they're going to do, so don't pretend any differently.

http://crimson-guild.com

 

flyingtoastr

JotW spec sucks when it can't be in melee range.

If they make deep Holy have some regen talent (removing the reduction with Divine Plea) and a heavy throughput talent or two to the range where by going JotW you lose a huge portion of effective healing for regen that you don't need it would work fine.

Divine Favor still costs mana.