WotLK talent trees/abilities discussion - Page 170

Selenia · 08/26/08, 9:13 PM

Originally Posted by Kigale

I'm curious, do druids get the mana from JotW if they are in bear or cat? I assume not, since it can't be burned it shouldn't be gained, but you never know.

You gain at an increased rate if you pop innervate and then go into a form, so I'd assume they would gain from it.

Someone really ought to test that out though. Group with a shadowpriest and check with a mod showing the bar in forms. Should work for pallies if it does for shadowpriests.

Cathela · 08/26/08, 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by bellator

Are there any figures / calculations showing exactly how dodge/parry rating is suffering from diminishing returns?

The reason I ask is that I asked a druid friend who is currently 79 on the beta to test out how much dodge % he got from a dodge only item he had in two situations:-

1) Going from naked to wearing just the one item
2) Going from wearing all his gear excluding the one item to all his gear.

In the first instance his dodge % went up 0.7, in the second it went up 0.68. I don't have exact figures on what his dodge rating was in 1) and 2), but i know it was far higher in 2) and the penalty he suffered appeared to be very minor.

At the moment I can't even make sense of the character sheet. Here's what I have wearing some tanking gear at level 77:

The defense tooltip says 253 defense rating for +64 defense skill. I'm at 443 total defense skill; the baseline for level 77 is 385 so that means I'm 58 points above the baseline (I'm not fully trained up in defense.) The tooltip says I'm getting +2.32% dodge/block/parry/miss/anti-crit, which is what you'd expect for +58 skill. So that all checks out.

The dodge tooltip says "Dodge rating of 314 adds 9.94% dodge."

The dodge chance on my character sheet is 14.74%. I can't see where that number comes from, unless the base dodge chance has been lowered to 2.48% for some reason. I'll try to do some more tests on this tomorrow.

EDIT: Two last tests I did before the server crashed. I added and removed a piece containing only dodge (Pepe's shroud from MH trash with +12 dodge rating enchant). Results from the dodge tooltip:

"Dodge rating of 314 adds 9.94% dodge" which implies 31.590% rating gives +1% dodge.

"Dodge rating of 272 gives 8.61% dodge" which implies 31.591% dodge gives +1% dodge.

Now that's pretty damn linear.

• frmorrison · 08/26/08, 11:44 PM

Dodge = Base Dodge (every class has a different one) + (Dodge Rating + Agility/Dodge Ratio) adds them together? + Extra Dodge from Defense + talents

14.74 = 2.48 + 9.94 + 2.32

So assuming the dodge tooltip is adding agility + dodge rating, you have base of 2.48 at 77.

Noules · 08/27/08, 12:46 AM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

Dodge = Base Dodge (every class has a different one) + (Dodge Rating + Agility/Dodge Ratio) adds them together? + Extra Dodge from Defense + talents

14.74 = 2.48 + 9.94 + 2.32

So assuming the dodge tooltip is adding agility + dodge rating, you have base of 2.48 at 77.

I don't think the dodge tooltip adds the agility dodge - at least on live with 0 rating hovering shows 0% dodge added. Hovering over agi, however, gives me the dodge % which is the same as the total dodge (this is in holy gear).

Cathela · 08/27/08, 12:47 AM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

So assuming the dodge tooltip is adding agility + dodge rating, you have base of 2.48 at 77.

I think you're right.

With no defense/avoidance/agility gear equipped at all, I have 2.47% dodge on the character sheet (seemingly despite being 6 points low on defense skill?) so that makes sense as the level 77 base.

When I add just the enchanted Pepe's the tooltip says I have 42 dodge rating for +1.33% dodge. That means 31.58 dodge rating for 1% dodge, so that fits with the other observations. But my character sheet dodge goes up to 3.84%, an increase of 1.37% dodge from the no-gear case. Is that a rounding bump or something?

GSH · 08/27/08, 12:58 AM

Originally Posted by Cathela

When I add just the enchanted Pepe's the tooltip says I have 42 dodge rating for +1.33% dodge. That means 31.58 dodge rating for 1% dodge, so that fits with the other observations. But my character sheet dodge goes up to 3.84%, an increase of 1.37% dodge from the no-gear case. Is that a rounding bump or something?

Possibly one of the tooltips is incorrect. It's too large for a rounding bump.

dakiki · 08/27/08, 4:36 AM

Originally Posted by Chicken

It uses hit rating, but has the miss chance of a spell. The same applies to the Warrior ability Taunt, and the Druid ability Growl.

Meaning there is always a 1% chance to be resisted like spells, or we can cap for 0 resist?

Prinsesa · 08/27/08, 4:37 AM

Originally Posted by dakiki

Meaning there is always a 1% chance to be resisted like spells, or we can cap for 0 resist?

Currently, yes. In Wrath, no - you can gear for 17% hit and be irresistible.

Rheyah · 08/27/08, 4:40 AM

Originally Posted by Nilaus

Is the glass ½ empty or ½ full?

Try to consider it a 20% mana return and it also gives 20% mana to 2 party members. That is a nice talent and I would definately still take. Now add a "if you solo you get 60% instead of 20% to prevent drinking like casters"

So please see the glass and ½ full, because it is a lovely talent for both solo and grouping

Proportionally we're looking at something like 17% of our mana pool to cast one AE attack. We are not warriors. Our "rage" does not regenerate on melee hits. It generates exactly once every 8 seconds unless we've judged Wisdom, in which case we get additional ticks once every 4 seconds. Paladin DPS is not cheap.

So if all of a sudden in a high pressure mana draining environment two thirds of my mana regen is whisked off to proportionately lower mana members of my team (who may or may not have mana pools two and a half times the size of mine) and I get focused on/mana burned, what am I to do? You can argue there will always be mana of some kind to Judge and that should be what you plan for, but how does that mana get distributed in a pressure arena environment. If it's intelligently distributed then I can see it being rather useful. If not then it's just a massive drain on a Ret paladin's personal mana regen, which is something that we cannot afford given we now have no significant mana pool of any kind. We also do not know what our final Judgement damage is going to look like.

This isn't a whining paladin post. I'm just pointing out a potential problem as I see it. At the moment the JoTW we've been testing has been balanced based on Judgements that are doing far too much damage. At high levels of AP they can and will outdamage autoattack. When these Judgements are rebalanced into something more sane, JoTW will need another look.

• Chicken · 08/27/08, 5:00 AM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

Dodge = Base Dodge (every class has a different one) + (Dodge Rating + Agility/Dodge Ratio) adds them together? + Extra Dodge from Defense + talents

14.74 = 2.48 + 9.94 + 2.32

So assuming the dodge tooltip is adding agility + dodge rating, you have base of 2.48 at 77.

The tooltip when you hover over your dodge only shows the dodge you get from dodge rating. Always has done. Try buffing yourself with Kings.

Anyway I have a feeling the people seeing odd scaling effects on various ratings are actually being fooled by a bug in WotLK: Occasionally various pieces of gear will have their ratings apply twice. But if you then swap in or out another piece of gear, sometimes the bonus rating you got through this is lost (The bug doesn't happen to all gear though). I have no idea whether this is something that only applies on the client's side, or if the server treats you as having the extra rating too, I do know it always add up after a relog.

Malleus · 08/27/08, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by bellator

Problem is that in building up the tree you get to this:-

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

To get to tier 8 you need to spend 4 more points. With Conc Aura probably the no.3 aura in raids, imp loh a lot weaker than it currently is, and the remaining talents meh in terms of a pve healing build, even if HL becomes a far less frequently used heal, the talent still feels the most worthwhile choice.

Even with the armour buff diminished, there is no way 2/2 Imp LoH shouldn't be in every Holy build. LoH is losing the 100% mana drain and moving to a CD short enough that it can be used at least every other attempt. In the absolute worst case, it's a free instant-speed HL13 that restores mana. Unless there's a reason to save it for a specific point in the fight, someone should be getting laid every single time it's up.

For the other two points, either Unyielding Faith or Pure of Heart is worth keeping points in. Which you use is purely down to which fights you're on, though I favour Unyielding Faith as curses and diseases can always be cleansed by someone.

Pitbuller · 08/27/08, 11:27 AM

50% bonus to armor value from items for 15 sec. 16 min cooldown.

If tank would get that buff with two talent point's they definetly would take it every time. Tank healer job is keep tank alive and co-operative with together. So if tank think this is needed then it's needed.

Edit: corrected CD.

Exewut · 08/27/08, 11:39 AM

Loh is on a 5 minutes cooldown now? I thought it was 20(-4)?

bellator · 08/27/08, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by Malleus

Even with the armour buff diminished, there is no way 2/2 Imp LoH shouldn't be in every Holy build. LoH is losing the 100% mana drain and moving to a CD short enough that it can be used at least every other attempt. In the absolute worst case, it's a free instant-speed HL13 that restores mana. Unless there's a reason to save it for a specific point in the fight, someone should be getting laid every single time it's up.

For the other two points, either Unyielding Faith or Pure of Heart is worth keeping points in. Which you use is purely down to which fights you're on, though I favour Unyielding Faith as curses and diseases can always be cleansed by someone.

I disagree on the imp LoH points. I do agree it should be used all the time, however when it comes to bosses, there are very few in the 16-20 minute range, which means in terms of CD the talent points give no benfit to any individual attempt. (The only difference is of course that over an evening you will have (numbers maded up) 80% of attempts with it off CD rather than 70%) The buff itself is nice, but again there is very little use for one 15 sec increased armour buff during an encounter, so LoH will be more the oh shit + mana back from glyph thing (if taken). Personally for an individual boss attempt I personally see little worth in the talent points when compared to Light's Grace.

Personally I think the Lay on Hands ability needs to be re-thought out. When it was first implemented:-

1) Paladins health was a much larger % of the tanks health than it is now
2) The size of the heal was far greater than could be obtained from holy light

Over time with levelling and gearing, paladins health as a % of the MT's has decreased, and holy light has scaled much more than the paladins health. I know the CD has been decreased, but its still a long CD, and at 80, it's an instant 12k heal for about 45% of the MT's health? With infusion of light and the top ranks holy lights, we will be seeing lots of instat 12k crits from Holy light. Lay on Hands just doesnt seem to have the power it once did.

Smurrf · 08/27/08, 12:50 PM

That depends on who the person doing LoH is. I know I personally on my tank actually now have more HP than even our MT does, so no matter who it is, I know I'm topping them off. I don't forsee that changing for the foreseeable future, so long as I keep my spec as Prot.

I would argue that the ability is fine, and that if anything is to be tweaked, then it needs to be the Holy talent affecting it, not the ability itself.