I still think AoW is fine as it is. Just like if an Enhance heals instead of LvB or LB he loses damage, a Ret healing loses damage.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Well, actually Moonfire does reset the swing timer in live despite it's instant status, but we can chalk that up to very odd programmer choices.
So does Insect Swarm, SW:Pain and Fireblast. Not that priests or mages should be using their melee weapons at all, but it's still (slightly) relevant to the instant casts + swing timer discussion.
Basically it seems the default is that spells will reset the swing timer, and certain instant casts (for the melee hybrids) were later exempted.
I still think AoW is fine as it is. Just like if an Enhance heals instead of LvB or LB he loses damage, a Ret healing loses damage.
Then why don't we lose DPS for Divine Storm healing? Why doesn't Blood Aura reduce a party's damage by 2%? Why is VE the most efficient heal in the game?
Again, MW was designed to increase DPS by making shamans use their major combat system while meleeing. AoW was designed simply to increase utility. It has NO bearing on our DPS. Blizzard's big thing for Wrath has been "you don't sacrifice your damage for utility anymore", why is AoW so different?
Originally Posted by Fiola
Basically it seems the default is that spells will reset the swing timer, and certain instant casts (for the melee hybrids) were later exempted.
Mmm. Now that I think about it a long time ago (like 1.4-ish) they had to manually go in and change Consecration so it didn't reset the timer anymore. Your theory would make sense.
Maybe the exception here is that Maelstrom doesn't reset the timer. Which makes sense, it IS intended as mainly a dps ability so resetting the timer would be stupid.
We have a talent that gives us a 20% crit increase to our best abilities, and in addition gives us an option to throw a flash heal that will crit anywhere form 30 - 80% of the time and add a hot.
Honestly, nit-picking aside isn't that worth 2 talent points? That's like not taking repentance because it doesn't work on beasts.
Maybe the exception here is that Maelstrom doesn't reset the timer. Which makes sense, it IS intended as mainly a dps ability so resetting the timer would be stupid.
We have a talent that gives us a 20% crit increase to our best abilities, and in addition gives us an option to throw a flash heal that will crit anywhere form 30 - 80% of the time and add a hot.
Honestly, nit-picking aside isn't that worth 2 talent points? That's like not taking repentance because it doesn't work on beasts.
I don't think anyone is saying the talent is bad in it's current implementation. It's more the dichotomy between it and Maelstrom Weapon (and to a lesser degree, that thing that gives Warriors instant Slams, whatever it's called).
I know that any Ret Paladin worth their salt in both PvE and PvP would be hard pressed to give up AoW, even if they don't change a single thing about it.
I think the question really is, what is the intention here? Is AoW intended to allow healing while DPSing, with no loss? Is the game being balanced from that? We must ask in the future tense, because atm the game is NOT balanced.
On the other hand, is the heal from AoW designed as more of a choice, DPS vs. healing? If so, is our damage and survivability as Ret being balanced around that? How often do they see a Ret Paladin using AoW heals?
Digressing a bit, but I for one would like to see some hard data on exactly how much using AoW heals every time they're up would actually impact a DPS rotation.
Honestly, this discussion is so heated only because this talent is so new. Instant FoLs aren't gamebreaking in PvE or PvP, we're just not used to them. Pretend for a moment that Cleanse reset the swing timer. I could argue very happily the Cleanse is far more powerful than an occasional instant FoL. So why is it so gamebreaking that a middle level talent gives us this additional utility? Should we also be forced to choose between cleansing and DPSing?
This is one more example of how people put healing up on this massive pedestal, as if it is more important than anything else anyone can bring to the table. Why is an occasional small heal so overpowered?
Digressing a bit, but I for one would like to see some hard data on exactly how much using AoW heals every time they're up would actually impact a DPS rotation.
I tested it out, and the drop in DPS is noticeable. I was getting about 1200 dps just spamming my macro on a target dummy. I tried using instant FoLs at about 1 every 10s or so, whenever the next ability was still on a large cooldown. DPS during that time was about 1075.
(level 70, T4, Gorehowl, level 70 dummy, about 250K damage done for each test)
I think the issue Blizzard has here is the paradigm shift it'd enforce on them. So far they've agreed with removing the reset from Maelstrom because it's near impossible for Shamans, DWing comparatively fast weapons with two swingtimers running to time their Maelstrom procs right.
While they probably expect Paladins with their slow 2Hers to be able to time the FoLs after the melee swings.
SQUEAK.
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This thread has again degenerated into a discussion about a non-issue. An instant cast resetting the swing timer is due to bad programming, sloppy programming or an inability for the developers to know their own mechanics. Pure and simple. Do any rogue instants reset the swing timer? DK instants? No. So there's no debate involved. Once you've played a game where people can cast while moving and that doesn't rest swing timers, you'll get an idea of how bad this game's codebase is. I can see the point of lobbying for it to not reset the swing timer (although if this were reality, it's something we shouldn't have to lobby for - it would be implemented already). However, it's a simple game bug and it should be fixed one way or another. Yes, this is another example of why blizzard need to have people in-house who actually play the game - they'd pick up on these quirks instantly and not need pages and pages of people arguing about it to fix the bug.
While they probably expect Paladins with their slow 2Hers to be able to time the FoLs after the melee swings.
There's a very good reason no one in their right minds uses Hammer of Wrath right now. We lose a lot more from resetting our swing timer than a Dual Wielder, given both the longer timer in general and the fact that our swings are a ton of damage.
Actually the precedent is here for a change. AoW resetting the swing timer makes that part of the talent pretty worthless for anything other than soloing. The other "reset" mechanics have all been changed. Slam now simply pushes back the timer instead of resetting it. MW as has been discussed ad nauseum doesn't have any affect at all. Steady Shot no longer clips the next autoshot but simply pushes it back. Everything else is going in that direction.
Not only that but resets are unintuitive. Think about a new player who decides he wants to be a Wrecking Crew and starts leveling an Arms Warrior. Does he have any idea how valuable a good Slam rotation is? Does a brand new Hunter understand why you don't just want to spam shots when the cooldowns are up? These are all very unintuitive mechanics that aren't explained at all within the game.
This thread has again degenerated into a discussion about a non-issue. An instant cast resetting the swing timer is due to bad programming, sloppy programming or an inability for the developers to know their own mechanics. Pure and simple. Do any rogue instants reset the swing timer? DK instants? No. So there's no debate involved. Once you've played a game where people can cast while moving and that doesn't rest swing timers, you'll get an idea of how bad this game's codebase is. I can see the point of lobbying for it to not reset the swing timer (although if this were reality, it's something we shouldn't have to lobby for - it would be implemented already). However, it's a simple game bug and it should be fixed one way or another. Yes, this is another example of why blizzard need to have people in-house who actually play the game - they'd pick up on these quirks instantly and not need pages and pages of people arguing about it to fix the bug.
Come on guys. Shape up already.
The game does support casting while moving. See various engineering toys and the ancient version of bandages (IIRC), which were channeled but usable on the move.
That casting on the move isn't implemented is a design decision - that's a unique advantage of instant cast spells. (balanced with higher mana costs, lower coefficients, and/or cooldowns)
In the case of AoW, it's the ability working as the rest of the game already works - the exception is Maelstrom Weapon, not AoW. It'd be a bug only if Blizzard didn't intend for the weapon swing timer reset. (My guess: Yes, but it's not essential to balancing the talent; so it's still up for change if there's a convincing case for it)
I don't get what the big deal is. Why is it such a big deal that we may or may not lose a fraction of a swing over the course of a fight? No one is going to be spamming instant AoW FoLs non stop anyway, it's main use is an emergency button. 1-10 swings partially delayed over a 10 min fight, does that really matter?
Sure it could be better, but I don't see why this is yet again an end of world, multiple page debate.
Shamen have a better version, big woop, what's new? Normally I'd be the first in line to complain, but this is such a situational ability with such a negligible penalty ("occasional fraction of a swing lost due to an ability you won't be spamming").
Now correct me if I'm wrong:
Don't Shamen momentarily lose an instant cast Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning/Lava Burst if they consume their Maelstrom Weapon effect? Doesn't that equally translate to a partial loss of DPS similar to the loss of a partial swing for us if we use AoW to throw a FoL?
Not that this point would have any impact on my stance regarding this issue.
Unless Quartz is broken the current test build isn't resetting the swing timer from AoW heals anyway. I do know that the last build certainly was though I could visually see the wait without even having quartz installed.
Aww I see. Everyone always makes quartz out to be gods gift to timing. I was under the impression it was smart enough to reset. Haven't really used it much myself. Coming over from a hunter KHT always worked fine.
Well Quartz hasn't been reporting swing times accurately with AoW for as long as the talent has been around. Depending on how swing times are reported by the game, the actual mechanics of the ability may need to be hard coded into it in order for swings to report accurately.
I don't get what the big deal is. Why is it such a big deal that we may or may not lose a fraction of a swing over the course of a fight? No one is going to be spamming instant AoW FoLs non stop anyway, it's main use is an emergency button. 1-10 swings partially delayed over a 10 min fight, does that really matter?
Sure it could be better, but I don't see why this is yet again an end of world, multiple page debate.
Shamen have a better version, big woop, what's new? Normally I'd be the first in line to complain, but this is such a situational ability with such a negligible penalty ("occasional fraction of a swing lost due to an ability you won't be spamming").
Now correct me if I'm wrong:
Don't Shamen momentarily lose an instant cast Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning/Lava Burst if they consume their Maelstrom Weapon effect? Doesn't that equally translate to a partial loss of DPS similar to the loss of a partial swing for us if we use AoW to throw a FoL?
Not that this point would have any impact on my stance regarding this issue.
Except that the proc from MW exists solely to increase DPS. AoW is designed solely to increase utility. For the love of all that is holy stop comparing the two.
On a general level, it's a bug that should be fixed overall. Instant spells have certain characteristics. They can be cast on the run, and they do not reset the swing time. It's intuitive that a spell that becomes instant should behave like an instant cast spell. It makes the game simpler, more predictable, and easier to understand, especially for people who don't run mods like Quartz.
OK, I just tested this on my Priest: ALL instant cast spells DO reset the swing timer, on a Priest. The same is true for Mages and Warlocks. You are just flat wrong when you say that not resetting the swing timer is a characteristic of instant cast spells. As far as I am aware it is only Shaman and Hunter instant cast spells that do not reset the swing timer.
There's a very good reason no one in their right minds uses Hammer of Wrath right now. We lose a lot more from resetting our swing timer than a Dual Wielder, given both the longer timer in general and the fact that our swings are a ton of damage.
You're right, it doesn't make sense for ret pallies to be using Hammer of Wrath in PvE. As prot, I've been using it between boss melee swings. It's actually quite valuable for threat I've found (and DPS) because my melee swings hit for pathetic amounts and come quickly.
This thread has again degenerated into a discussion about a non-issue. An instant cast resetting the swing timer is due to bad programming, sloppy programming or an inability for the developers to know their own mechanics. Pure and simple. Do any rogue instants reset the swing timer? DK instants? No. So there's no debate involved. Once you've played a game where people can cast while moving and that doesn't rest swing timers, you'll get an idea of how bad this game's codebase is. I can see the point of lobbying for it to not reset the swing timer (although if this were reality, it's something we shouldn't have to lobby for - it would be implemented already). However, it's a simple game bug and it should be fixed one way or another. Yes, this is another example of why blizzard need to have people in-house who actually play the game - they'd pick up on these quirks instantly and not need pages and pages of people arguing about it to fix the bug.
Come on guys. Shape up already.
Again, the normal behavior for instant cast spells is they do reset the swing timer. Only Shamans and Hunters (and Paladin Judgements) are different as far as "spells" go.
Except that the proc from MW exists solely to increase DPS. AoW is designed solely to increase utility. For the love of all that is holy stop comparing the two.
The only reason I even mentioned it is because that's what other people are bringing as their main argument why AoW should be changed to not reset the swing timer. If that argument didn't exist, then I would dismiss the whole issue as useless whining. Why again is it such a multiple page worthy death sentence for AoW to cost partial swings here and there?
That said, MW does not "exist solely to increase DPS", it forfeits that status by working for heals too, lets at least be fair, ok?
OK, I just tested this on my Priest: ALL instant cast spells DO reset the swing timer, on a Priest. The same is true for Mages and Warlocks. You are just flat wrong when you say that not resetting the swing timer is a characteristic of instant cast spells. As far as I am aware it is only Shaman and Hunter instant cast spells that do not reset the swing timer.
Very interesting. So Judgements, Shocks, hunter abilities, melee abilities, Purge and Cleanse don't reset the swing timer, but every other instant spell does.
I wonder what the DK abilities are like. Also, I wonder what Lay on Hands does, but that would be unfun to test.
The only reason I even mentioned it is because that's what other people are bringing as their main argument why AoW should be changed to not reset the swing timer. If that argument didn't exist, then I would dismiss the whole issue as useless whining. Why again is it such a multiple page worthy death sentence for AoW to cost partial swings here and there?
That said, MW does not "exist solely to increase DPS", it forfeits that status by working for heals too, lets at least be fair, ok?
The healing portion was tacked onto MW after it's original inclusion at the request of PvP shamans. The original intent was clearly to simply give enhancement shamans a reason to use the baseline class skills that their combat system is supposed to be based around.
Avitus, you should know better than anyone why HoW is so worthless right now. This is the exact same thing. As a DPS class you should never be cutting your DPS for any reason except total and dire emergency. A singe paltry FoL is rarely, if ever, going to make a difference. If it was an instant Holy Light, yeah I could see that. But a 1.8k heal isn't going to be saving many lives and knocking yourself down 200 DPS could end up killing a lot more people.
09/27/08, 5:11 PM
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