• Avitus

Redcape, remember while it might not be as big of an issue right now with starter WotLK gear, it will increasingly become an issue the higher the itemlevel goes. Which means that while it might be "not a big deal" with starter gear, I would really love to avoid the situation where I'm locked into having to go for leather/mail in endgame (again) if I want to maximize output.

Adjusting item budget allocation by making special rules for str and what not would open up a pandora's box the devs won't touch, for good reason. You really don't want to go down to messing with internal conversion rates of every stat.


The increase Divine Str got in WotLK (10% -> 15%) is in fact pretty much what you've described, however, fact remains that the higher the itemvalue will go the more mail/leather will start closing the gap of and most probably overtake plate in endgame.

The only worthwhile solution is a "self scaling" talent, or something like Armed to the Teeth (AttT): As itemlevel goes up, so naturally does Armor and the returns from AttT.

I'm not sure why anyone would argue against an AttT or for an alternative solution. It fits the bill and does what you'd expect it to do perfectly: Namely make plate more desirable for melee DPS.


It's pretty much of a case of "Hey you fixed this issue for the other two plate classes, we have this issue too, gief plz?" rather than actually the need to come up with a separate solution.

 

Grabi

I noticed that Judgement of Justice with Seal of Righteousness causes 200% critical damage. The same holds for Seal of Vengeance. I think this has not been mentioned yet (build 8982).

 

_Paladino_

Why not Agi, Crit and Str like feral druids in BC? As i think the "armed" talent will only delay the point where leather gets better than plate.

 

◊ Cathela

There's no +20 defense skill from talents anymore, for any class. Being uncrittable is the same whether you're prot or ret. And while there's no question that it can be done at 80 with blues and whatnot, it's not a trivial task, and it constrains your gear choice quite a bit. I did a post on this in the Prot thread a week ago; look in there if you're interested in specifics.

Well, it's been mentioned, but that was well over 100 pages ago and looking over the OP, I seem to have removed that information somehow. Thanks for catching that.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

• Avitus

I've also considered this one (but the post was getting too long :S) and it's actually a valid alternative, you're right.

I can only "assume" they don't want plate wearing melee classes to get obscene amounts of dodge through agi similar to rogues, as high mitigation through armor as well as high avoidance through dodge for a DPS spec would probably be deemed imbalanced (rather than the "either or" situation we have right now).

AttT will only delay the point where leather overtakes plate, you're right again, but it only needs to delay it enough to match a realistic item level cap in WotLK. They can always buff the talent if this stops being the case.


The main thing AttT has going for it is that it's already been deemed balanced and necessary by the blizzard devs who implemented it. It's not something a bunch of players are coming up with on a forum, it has already gone through the whole process and is now being tested on beta.

It is infinitely easier for the devs and therefore by extension infinitely more probable that we'd get such a talent if we ask for it than if we start a campaign to solve the whole item stat budget conundrum, especially this late in the beta cycle.

 

JettJaguar

Agility on plate would also be problematic since agility does not benefit all plate wearers equally (Combat Ratings at level 80). Crit from agility is significantly higher for Paladins than for Warriors/DKs and would certainly be a closet "buff" to Paladins (Paladin 52 agi/crit % and War/DK 62.5 agi/crit %). And pieces with all Paladin-friendly stats (not ArP or Haste) would probably be even more skewed toward the Paladin.

 

levk

The thing that pisses me off the most about AttT is that I have to spend talent points on something that should've been done right in the first place.

If they can't bring themselves to put AP and strength on the same item they should put something else there, but different class/specs will want different things. Melee DPS bonuses are crit, haste - both good for all classes; arp - full physical classes doubt its viability and with half of ret damage unmitigated this is out the window; and we have hit/expertise. Hit/expertise are different for whether you're ret/arms/DK or a TG war. In case of the former there's a fairly early hit cap and expertise works towards it.

I haven't looked at how 1 expertise rating compares to 1 hit rating in terms of raw DPS output before hit cap, if they're comparable expertise could be a viable way to introduce the fifth stat on plate - it being either hit or expertise and everything will have crit and haste. That would work until expertise cap is reached which is a bit further than hit. It's still annoying since at each upgrade you need to reevaluate your enchants/gems since say you have X hit and Y expertise you get some expertise on some upgrade allowing you to lose Z hit. Just introducing AP to plate would obviously sidestep this kind of problem.

 

• Avitus

levk, I get what you're saying, but it's the same argument as "seals being undispellable should have been a base buff rather than a talent". You're right, but we use what we get.

Since this is something being "given" to the other 2 plate classes, it's a good point to argue that we should get the same.

That's also why I suggest an AttT talent be rolled into one of the flatter ret talents so we wouldn't lose talent points: Righteous Vengeance would be one example as it looks pretty weak to me with 25% crit damage increase to only Judgements and DS for a 5 point talent. Another good example would be Swift Retribution as a personal buff (3% haste is far below 3% DPS personal) or even into Improved Ret Aura which is worthless to us.


Fixing plate itemisation by sticking haste/ArmP or some other stat won't really work unless the equally hard cap leather itemization to the same number of stats. What I mean is: If they give us Str, CR and Exp and give Leather AP, Agi, CR and Exp in higher tier sets we'd be back to square one.

 

Hidden

@AttT only delaying when Leather will be superior to Plate:
I think you greatly underestimate the armor scaling with higher tier gear, according to WoWWiki:
Leather: iLevel*3.0525+13.625
Plate: iLevel*12.375+31.625

Armor scales just as linear with the item level as other stats on gear, so there should be no point at which Leather outscales the benefit of AttT if there are no stat contribution changes.

 

Thorgred

HotR does gain dmg based off AP, from my testing on PTR.

Hammer of the Righteous: Threat = 1.9 * (DPS + AP/14)*3*1.1 (1h spec).
1dps provides 1*3*1.1*1.9/6 (duration) threat = 1.045 Threat.

Melee Swings: Threat =(DPS+AP/14)*Spd*1.1
1 dps provides 1*1.1*spd/spd threat = 1.1 threat

1.1+1.045 = 2.145 TPS from 1 weapon DPS.
As near as i can make out from my spreadsheet, 1 SP provides 0.38 TPS (compared to AP, which is 1:0.5tps)
Each DPS sacrificed off an epic weapon provides 7 Spellpower
7*0.38 = 2.66 TPS

Spellpower weapons retain 57.5% of a melee weapon's DPS, and the remaining 42.5% is converted to spellpower.
SP Weap TPS: (0.575*2.145+0.425*2.66)*DPS =2.364*DPS
Melee Weap TPS: (1*2.145)*DPS = 2.145*DPS
Ratio: 11:10

Epic Spellpower weapons give ~10% more threat, before stats.

However, considering the stats on melee weapons: Taking the Red Sword (heroic epic tanking sword) you get 25Str. x1.15 (Diivne strength) *1.1 (kings) = 31.625 Str.
The Red Sword has 150 dps=322 TPS, so the equivalent epic heroic SP mace gives 354 TPS
31.6 Str converts at a ratio of ~1.2 Str -> TPS . 1.2*31.6= 38 TPS
Melee Weap + Melee Stats = 360 TPS.
Spell Weap + No Melee Stat= 354 TPS


Add the fact that you also gain defensive stats(defense/parry), likely more stamina, the extra possibility of Hit/Expertise on melee weapons, you're onto a winner. Not by much, but strictly speaking Melee Weaps are better.


The difference grows using Blue/Green weaps. Blue SP weapons seem to gain only 6 SP per DPS lost, making SP weaps only 2.5% better, before stats. Green weapons gain 5 SP, meaning green SP weaps are 5% worse than green melee weaps, before stats.


EDIT: Blacksmithin Hammers don't count as melee weapons , but my mining pick does. HotR based on melee hit, can miss, be dodged, parried and deflected.

 

Redcape

I think you misunderstand me. I don't mean that str should get special treatment like stamina currently does, but rather just that plate items be itemized with LOTS of str on them instead of high values for other stats (especially stamina). If plate were itemized like:

75 sta
71 str
50 x
50 x

and leather were

75 sta
50 agil
100 AP
50 x
50 x

The plate is actually better in this circumstance, and the ilvls are the same. If you want confirmation on the numbers, see my post on the previous page. Str has been drastically improved for paladins in 3.0, and not just because of Divine Str going up in power. Our fundamental mechanics have been massively altered in such a way as to make AP hugely more impactful, which of course makes Str better.

Edit: Also note, this change is completely independent of ilvl. Change the values to

300 sta
284 str
200 x
200 x

and

300 sta
200 agil
400 AP
200 x
200 x

The exact same situation occurs, the plate with str is better.

/Edit

 

• Avitus

I'll take your word for it, though it does all ride on them actually stacking STR more than the other stat on plate items (which does sound likely). I'll probably do some math on this later, but I still think there has to be a point of infraction and regardless it remains somewhat unsettling to see the other two plate classes get an AttT talent and gain more from plate while we're left without.

Anyway, if I never have to wear a non-plate item again I'll be very happy.

 

Thorgred

Doing some testing on the current PTR for holy shield:
coefficients seem to be 5.6% AP and 9.0% SP. Could anyone confirm and if so change the OP?

 

• Chicken

I haven't properly tested this yet, but based on feeling from using it, I think parries only occur on your first target, while on secondary targets the ability would get deflected instead of parried when it occurs. I can't recall ever seeing a deflect while using it on a single target, and I also can't recall ever seeing one of the secondary targets parry it.

buff /bÊŒf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

Hidden

Strength's value is only relative to other stats, at some point Strength stacking will lead to a point where other stats like Agility and Crit Rating become just as good as or better than Strength, at this point Leather with 4 different stats will be better than Plate with 3 different stats, probably even before.

 

Kirion

Somehow i highly doubt that warriors will be happy with agi on plate items.

42.

 

jere

I got those too and reported them to Cathela. However, when he tested, he got the ones you see on the OP. I just figured I made a mistake, but if you are getting the same coefficients as me, I wonder if something was amiss in his calcs.

 

Fiola

That's technically true. The thing is that you may never hit that equivalence point, realistically.

On Live. at L70, it takes something like 3k AP @ 20% crit for crit to match AP. With raid buffs and everything else, you will actually have 30~35% crit, and thus need something like 5k AP.


Also, this is only the first level of raid gear. Compare T4 to T6: The T4 items have 2~3 DPS stats; but the SWP T6 has 4 DPS stats. We'll see better itemization as raids progress. If need be, old gear will get re-itemized to make us want it.

 

Thorgred

My observations was using a low level axe (a weapon type i haven't used for many many levels) so i had only ~100 weapon skill and thus very low hit rate. Against the basilisks and moths outside Shattrath
It was only single-target, but i saw all results (hit,miss,dodge,parry,deflect). Didn't try any multi-target

It confused me for a while due to all the talented damage modifiers I had as well as zone buffs - eventually i toned down to as low possible gear as i could, with a horrible talent spec that gave no damage modifiers, aside from the 5% from Allys holding Terokkar.
But those *seem* to be the results- 5.6% SP + 9% AP.
Some testing seemed to indicate results of up to 6% AP / 10% SP, but never below 5.6/9, and those changes were mostly due to rounding confusions.

EDIT:
Blue Quote Regarding Druid Aoe healing:
Wild Growth isn't intended to make you an awesome group healer. Shamans and Priests are awesome group healers, but can't hot the way a druid can. What Wild Growth is intended to do is let you heal a group when you are the only healer, or heal a group in fights (usually boss fights) where you don't have an opportunity to distribute hots to everyone. Without going into a lot of detail on new bosses in case you'd spoiler averse, there are bosses in Naxx and then the Malygos raid itself where you periodically can't get a bunch of heals up and yet the raid is still taking damage. Wild Growth is really helpful in those situations.


Specifically the bolded part. How does this apply to holy paladins? are we still assumed to be 'amazing' single-target healers who don't need a way to deal with situations where we 'can't get a bunch of heals up and yet the raid is still taking damage' .

 

bellator

I think the idea is that these situations like malygos's vortex will only happen in 10/25 man raids. I think the idea is that we don't need to be able to do this kind of healing as there will always be another healer there to do it for you. Yes having all pala healers will be detrimental, but then this isnt the norm.

So long as:-

a) 5-man dungeons dont require this type of healing
b) Our solo target healing is buffed to be the clear best single target healer

Then I personally don't have an issue with this.

 

Puretide

What about in situations where you only have paladins healing in 10 mans? For a while in BC nearly all of my BC karazhan clears were with double paladins (it was just the kind of class make up me and my friends had.)

What if that happens in the new 10 mans? Are we just SOL?

 

• frmorrison

If you had two Pally healers for Naxx-10, your raid will likely be hurting. However, since Pallys are the "single-target healer", as long as you have a non-Pally as the other healer, he/she can add dps while AoE healing isn't necessary.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Pyre

That would seem to run counter to their overall 'focus on player skill, not class' vision. I'd be surprised and very disappointed if double paladin healer combinations were non-viable in 10-man content.

 

Redcape

With 2 paladin healers you have the option of having one on tank healing and one just Beacon the tank and spam raid heals. Since no other healers will be overwriting your heals on the raid you should be able to get really decent tank healing throughput and put a ton of healing on the raid. It is possible (depending on organization and the way the damage comes in) that both paladins could try to do some raid healing with Beacon up and just have one assigned to heal the tank in emergencies. It isn't ideal, but Beacon in a all paladin healer setup is actually an amazing way to keep both a tank and the dps healed up.

Other classes dropping smart heals onto dps and causing paladin overheal (which negates beacon) is normally a big issue, but in the scenario you are describing you can abuse beacon to its fullest, and I bet it will be enough to make it fine.

 

Puretide

Exactly. Isn't the whole point of all these buff combinations and evening out of DPS, healing and tanking so that people in 10 mans (who for those that purely raid 10mans) are for more casual oriented players that don't want to organize huge raids? So that people can just take friends who are on rather than just trying to craft the perfect raid (within reason of course, you're going to need a tank or two to do an instance and a healer or two).

And on the same note, why can double shaman, druid, and priest combinations work (albeit with shortcomings for sure), whereas paladins cannot (or rather are more heavily penalized for it)?

Edit: Missed redcap's post:


This argument is coming from the blue post that was just linked where GC pretty much said there will be instances where you cannot get a bunch of heals out, but the raid is still taking damage. In other words, you won't be able to put out enough heals, even with BoL.