levk

The only issue with double pally healer in 10 man Naxx is Maexxna. Given your tank has the gear to survive the non-enraged stuns there's certain trickery to be used for enraged stun.

Pretty much all environmental damage in Naxx is avoidable or easily mitigated, original is a 40 man instance afterall.

Just going down the list:
Anub: I don't know what the actual cooldown on impale is, but he doesn't cast it too often. You certainly have enough time to top everybody up. Mitigated. For little bugs, just don't die. Avoided.
Faerlina: rain of fire - get out of the fire. Avoided.
Maexxna: stun on long cooldown. Mitigated.
Patchwerk: none.
Grobbulus: you choose where the aoe damage occurs. Avoided.
Gluth: kite. Avoided.
Thaddius: don't be an idiot with the polarity. Avoided.
Noth: decurse. Avoided.
Heigan: pay attention. Avoided.
Loatheb: can't heal raid damage anyway.
Razuvious: don't be in line of sight on disrupting shout - ie don't be an idiot. Avoided.
Gothik: reasonably standard gauntlet type thing - tanks pick up mobs as they come out etc. Avoided.
4H: long story short, mitigated. Healing is the least complex part of this encounter.

Now in the original Naxx at 60 the avoided damage was very obviously to be avoided because it could not be mitigated - you died if you didn't avoid it. With a lower tuned Naxx a lot of it moves to the category of possibly mitigated which could promote idiocy on the part of the people responsible for avoiding it.

 

Aditu

ie: Loetheb in Naxx.

Dual paladin healers on this fight in nax10 is a very tough situation owning to the fact that you have three seconds to heal 9 people.

 

Blutelf

Each paladin can cast 2 HLs with very careful precasting as the debuff runs out, which heals 3 targets per Paladin with Beacon. It's probably not absolutely impossible, but it sounds like an offspec healer is needed.

EDIT: Just to add though, most people agree that two healers are enough for most Naxx bosses. Loatheb and maybe Sapphiron is where two Holy Paladins are probably really going to be tested.

 

Suicidal Zebra

With any luck Sacred Shield, as a damage shield, will be handy on fights like Loatheb. Though that would depend on how well it scales.

 

Sozar

Even if you run with two Holy healers, you will more than likely have another healer class in the raid. They can assist on fights where its needed.

 

Tuftears

I'm not sure it works to say 'Suppose you only have two holy-spec'd paladin healers... except you really have hybrid class X which can also be made to heal'. You could as easily say 'Suppose you only have one paladin healer for a heroic 5-man... except you really have hybrid class X, which can also be made to heal.' Which is obviously false a fair amount of the time.

Non-healing tanks: warrior, DK
Non-healing DPS: warrior, DK, hunter, mage, rogue, warlock

It doesn't seem unreasonable that wind up with two holy paladins and no hybrid classes otherwise - not by intention but just 'that's who's available'.

Think of it like this; the developers have already erased 'AOE tanking' as the paladin/DK tank niche. Why should 'AOE healing' be something the other three healer classes can do, but paladins are exceptionally weak at it?

upstart feline miscreant (47 feral/14 resto)

 

krodor

What Tuftears said. Or:
Would you have to make an off-spec healer heal if you brought 2 priests, shaman, or druids? NO. Why do Paladins get special treatment.

 

Antmanton

The real acid test of this comes when you do direct comparisons between classes, i.e., would two priests (for the sake of a fair comparison, we can stipulate that both be specced alike) have the same amount of difficulty healing Naxx-10 as two paladins would. Obviously, encounters will differ in mechanics and execution, so it would be naive to expect completely equal performance. Having said that, though, if the other healers can adequately cover tank healing (the paladin "specialty," as GC implies) while paladins are still unable to effectively cope with mass AoE, it's safe to say there's going to be a problem.

As for asking another hybrid to help out with the healing in rough spots, certainly you can do so, and it might make for more interesting encounter designs. The problem comes when you only need to call in help when you have paladin healers. If a fully-specced and geared paladin can't singlehandedly handle the same parts of an encounter or assignment a priest or druid or shaman facerolls his way through due to lack of AoE healing, HoTs, or other gimmick, min-maxing raids will quickly stop bringing them again.

 

burghy

2hl + 1hs easy.
I think it could be possible to get hl + 2 fol + hs.

 

Resiana

Build 9014

- Infusion of Light: Got nerfed, it only reduce the casting time of Holy Light by 0.5/1 sec now.
- Judgements of the Wise: As suspected, this talent got nerfed, it now provide 33% of base mana instead of maximum mana.

 

Puretide

Also, JotP lasts 1 minute. Still seems meh since we still have to rejudge every 20 seconds to keep up our buffs (if we have to)

Edit: Didn't see your edit, sorry

 

Resiana

Yeah, the change is completely retarded anyway, 1 minute, is that their way to make the talent more useful? ...

And nice on the Infusion of Light nerf, the devs really need to stop nerfing Holy...

 

• Arikah

JotW change is probably going to be it's final form, it's exactly what we want/need as ret, makes it not very attractive for holy, and reduces our effectiveness at 70 in pvp (glad gear isn't changing). This is good.

I'm worried about the Infusion change, that was what made holy fun to play again... why would anybody want this nerfed? If this change is intended/stays, they will need to buff the living crap out of holy for it to not only be effective/competitive, but also fun.

When the servers are up, can someone go out and test if AoW still resets our swing timers? I has a raid tonight :s

 

Puretide

I can handle that.

 

flyingtoastr

I thought the point here was to make the holy tree more attractive, not worse... Anyone else confused?

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

Resiana

They probably thought the whole Infusion of Light + Judgements of the Wise build was too strong, so they nerfed both talents and in the process tried to band aid fix Light's Grace and Judgements of the Pure.

 

Corronach

They also confirmed Divine Plea is 100% healing reduction for the duration. This is depressing, the least fun healing spec (I say that having raided with the others) is going to continue with the same mechanics for another expansion.

 

• frmorrison

Glyph changes:

Paladin
* Glyph of Exorcism - Your Exorcism also interrupts spellcasting for 2 sec. (too situational)
* Glyph of Flash of Light - Your Flash of Light heals for 50% less initially, but also heals for 140.0% of its inital effect over 15 sec. (Nice buff here)
* Glyph of the Warhorse - Removed (it took off 1 second off mount casting time)
* Glyph of the Wise - Reduces the mana cost of your Seal of Wisdom spell by 50%. (fair minor glyph)


JotP lasting for 1 minute is better than 30 seconds.

Infusion of Light nerf really hurts .

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Corronach

How? You still have to rejudge every 20 seconds for the actual effect since Ret paladins can no longer keep them up.

 

• Arikah

Beat me to it on the post.

If the devs really do browse this thread, where did they get these ideas from? They sure aren't logical and nobody here has ever thought of Infusion/DPlea as overpowered...it's mind boggling. It would be akin to making Innervate silence it's user.

 

teeny

Hmm confused isn't a strong enough word. Unlike most holy paladins, I was extremely happy about the change made to holy, hell I was even ready to give a shot to the lower tiers talents that everyone seems to hate, but this definately changed my mind, holy now has a serious problem.
From what I've seen on the PTR, I guess their goal was to nerf Arena holy paladins, which were, I have to admit, pretty insane.
Anyone has the same feeling?

 

• frmorrison

Assuming you had a Ret or Prot Pally doing the important Judgement of Wisdom, if Light is off for a while it doesn't hurt much (unless you were 2 Holy Pally healing raid). Without either of them, it is still a buff in case you can't judge at 20 seconds.

I guess since Paladins that had their mobility fixed it was a bit too powerful .

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Palados

If they want to nerf PvP palas that way, they should buff the last two talent tiers significantly.

 

Andorien

So is Retribution, at least through to Judgments of the Wise, still a reasonable healing spec, at least at the level of heroics, 2-manning old instances, and 10 person Naxxramas? It looks like a really fun spec, but I haven't played my paladin on the beta up to the level where it's possible to tell how good the spec would be in groups.

I notice Flyingtoastr asserted over on the beta forums "The best Holy build, even after the JotW nerf, is now 28/0/43 (or 27/0/44 if you want CS for soloing fun time)" and I'd like to hear more on the subject.

 

Arthaal

With so little time until release this move is very confusing. The prupose of Infusion was to give us mobility... which we no longer have (the way haste/casting time reduction mechanics work, I would also want to make sure Light's Grace stacks with this casting time reduction as well... wouldn't be surprised to see some miscoding here).

Moreover, we now have to watch for 2 short duration buffs to optimally use what appears to be our main new healing spell, Holy Light. Ideally you'll want to make sure LG is up for those Infusion driven HLs. With the loss of downranking, that means full rank HL for 1200 mana at least every 15 seconds, which I didn't have a problem with when it looked like we were going to be mainly relying on instant HL and reactive casting (and have our mana regen balanced around that expectation), but this change means I have to re-evaluate that as a playing style. Factor-in the new Divine Plea, which is frankly even more of a head-scratcher (or flat out unworkable if you think of it in an arena setting), and our regen possibly being balanced around -25% output per minute (-100% healing for 15/60 seconds) and I'm left with nothing but questions.

Last, Infusion now only really serves to randomly increase throughput on a spam target - in a non-controllable way (except once every 2 minutes) - which is pretty terrible for a talent. Honestly, when do you ever think to yourself, "wow if I hadn't just randomly healed for 16k instead of 8k in that last 2.5 sec span of time we pretty much would have wiped!"

Infusion of Light: like an uncontrollable Light's Grace, but better!

It's going to take a lot of work to make this palatable by November 13.