WotLK talent trees/abilities discussion - Page 18

◊ Cathela · 07/21/08, 3:08 PM

Originally Posted by Cathela

Sweet. That means with talents we're looking at 1 block value per 1.33 strength.

I got a question about this via PM asking about my reasoning. Basically I was factoring in Shield Spec and Divine Strength, which is kind of a poor way to do it because (a) Divine Strength is already present in the strength shown on the character sheet, so this is not the correct conversion ratio for strength-on-character-sheet, and (b) if it's meant to be a conversion rate from strength-on-gear, then it should probably also include BoK (assuming for now that will still be the first-choice tanking blessing.) So, two revised numbers:

Strength on character sheet to block value, with Shield Spec: 1.58:1
Strength on gear to block value, with Sheild Spec, Divine Strength, and BoK: 1.22:1

So, one point of strength will boost your Shield damage by 1.64, and will boost your shield DPS by 0.27, which is a pretty good deal.

Also, I'm sure it's too early to ask whether Hammer uses normalized attack power, but does anyone recall the normalization speed for a non-dagger one-hander?

Originally Posted by Celebrimor

And since the others are bugs due to scriptings and there is nowhere mentioned in the spell or any confirms that it gives threat to the target I would say that untill then we can assume that it gives threat to the caster.

What Theras said, and while the Lifebloom and PoM healing threat assignment might have originally been a bug, it's a useful effect that's been allowed to persist for a long time, so clearly the devs are fine with it that way.

Wherever BoL's threat is going now, the devs will evaluate it and decide whether they like it that way or not, and if they don't they'll change it.

Raggsokk · 07/21/08, 3:08 PM

* Quoting failed

Ellerain · 07/21/08, 3:09 PM

Originally Posted by Hulabaloon

Isn't Hand of Purity now called Sacred Shield? If so, then I don't think it's really a heal - my impression of it is that it's more like a Power Word:Shield.

"Sacred Shield: Each time the target takes damage they gain a Sacred Shield, absorbing 500 damage. They cannot gain this effect more than once every 6 seconds."

If this is the case it's very disappointing - no mana return for tankadins, no rage for Warriors.

Yes, but this looks like a nice PvP/5-man/Solo ability and you can probably cast it on DK tanks in any content on cooldown.

Originally Posted by Raggsokk

It can save a tank/target from dying during a silence.

It can, but since it it only proccing AFTER a damage was tanking and absorbing 500 damage (scaling?), you do not want to count on it.

Raggsokk · 07/21/08, 3:09 PM

Originally Posted by Hulabaloon

Isn't Hand of Purity now called Sacred Shield? If so, then I don't think it's really a heal - my impression of it is that it's more like a Power Word:Shield.

"Sacred Shield: Each time the target takes damage they gain a Sacred Shield, absorbing 500 damage. They cannot gain this effect more than once every 6 seconds."

If this is the case it's very disappointing - no mana return for tankadins, no rage for Warriors.

It can save a tank from death during a silence though

◊ Cathela · 07/21/08, 3:11 PM

Originally Posted by Hulabaloon

Isn't Hand of Purity now called Sacred Shield? If so, then I don't think it's really a heal - my impression of it is that it's more like a Power Word:Shield.

"Sacred Shield: Each time the target takes damage they gain a Sacred Shield, absorbing 500 damage. They cannot gain this effect more than once every 6 seconds."

If this is the case it's very disappointing - no mana return for tankadins, no rage for Warriors.

It's still useful for PvP and as a buffer on a non-tank who you expect to take damage.

And I suspect that if you're in a fight where you really need to use this on a tank, rage/mana won't be an issue.

flyingtoastr · 07/21/08, 3:16 PM

Originally Posted by Cathela

Also, I'm sure it's too early to ask whether Hammer uses normalized attack power, but does anyone recall the normalization speed for a non-dagger one-hander?

2.4 seconds for non-dagger one-handed weapons.

◊ etrnl · 07/21/08, 3:52 PM

Originally Posted by Hulabaloon

Isn't Hand of Purity now called Sacred Shield? If so, then I don't think it's really a heal - my impression of it is that it's more like a Power Word:Shield.

"Sacred Shield: Each time the target takes damage they gain a Sacred Shield, absorbing 500 damage. They cannot gain this effect more than once every 6 seconds."

If this is the case it's very disappointing - no mana return for tankadins, no rage for Warriors.

I believe Hand of Purity was one of the updates they gave the crowd at WWI. It was described to be a reactive heal similar to PoM, but it doesn't jump and doesn't have any charges. I don't know if they ditched the idea, or if it's just not implemented yet, but I don't believe Sacred Shield is it as it absorbs damage, it doesn't heal like the devs described.

◊ Cathela · 07/21/08, 3:58 PM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

2.4 seconds for non-dagger one-handed weapons.

Thanks. I want to do some threat-scaling calculations for str vs spellpower, but there are too many unknowns at this point (threat modifiers on new abilities, new AP/spelldamage scaling on seals/judgement, etc.)

It looks like right now even with very conservative assumptions about HotR/SoR threat scaling, strength will be substantialy better than spellpower as a single-targe threat stat, and probably even for small-group situations.

Originally Posted by atheira

I believe Hand of Purity was one of the updates they gave the crowd at WWI. It was described to be a reactive heal similar to PoM, but it doesn't jump and doesn't have any charges. I don't know if they ditched the idea, or if it's just not implemented yet, but I don't believe Sacred Shield is it as it absorbs damage, it doesn't heal like the devs described.

I think SS is what HoP has become. They probably changed it from a healing proc to a shielding proc to make it a bit more unique (in description at least, if not so much in practice).

Look at it this way: They've given us a reactive shield spell; are they really going to now give us a reactive heal as well?

Kaincael · 07/21/08, 4:28 PM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

Making JoW return a small percentage of your total mana would help greatly with mana longevity with all the specs. The only problem you would run into is having multiple people trying to use JoW and not keeping JoL up on the mob. I would assume JoL could then return a small burst of health, but what would JoJ do? Snare effect? Spell interrupt? Extra damage?

It'd make more sense if it went something like this:

Seal of Wisdom + Judgement of Wisdom = Mana return, JoW debuff on mob
Seal of Light + Judgement of Wisdom = Health return, JoW debuff on mob
Seal of Justice + Judgement of Wisdom = ????, JoW debuff on mob

Seal of Wisdom + Judgement of Light = Mana return, JoL debuff on mob
Seal of Light + blah blah blah

I hope you see where I was trying to go with that. It'd certainly make more sense if that was the direction they were trying to take it.

Kigale · 07/21/08, 4:30 PM

Reactive shield may not be ideal for tank healing, but it is amazing for pvp. 500 damage every 6 seconds for 30 seconds, thats 2500 damage avoided from a 35 mana spell. It would also be good for paladin tanks in 5 mans that can drink between pulls.

Chrix · 07/21/08, 4:35 PM

I found this : http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j3...008_235008.jpg
I hope its working as intended but it's probably a bug

◊ etrnl · 07/21/08, 4:36 PM

Originally Posted by Cathela

Thanks. I want to do some threat-scaling calculations for str vs spellpower, but there are too many unknowns at this point (threat modifiers on new abilities, new AP/spelldamage scaling on seals/judgement, etc.)

It looks like right now even with very conservative assumptions about HotR/SoR threat scaling, strength will be substantialy better than spellpower as a single-targe threat stat, and probably even for small-group situations.

I think SS is what HoP has become. They probably changed it from a healing proc to a shielding proc to make it a bit more unique (in description at least, if not so much in practice).

Look at it this way: They've given us a reactive shield spell; are they really going to now give us a reactive heal as well?

All the more to help us out with being more mobile. MIGHT be to OP if you look at it in the aspect that you could HoP, HS, and if one of those crits, HL (8k-20k instant cast heals). That would be a nice question for the beta forums though...

◊ Cathela · 07/21/08, 4:38 PM

Originally Posted by Kaincael

It'd make more sense if it went something like this:

Seal of Wisdom + Judgement of Wisdom = Mana return, JoW debuff on mob
Seal of Light + Judgement of Wisdom = Health return, JoW debuff on mob
Seal of Justice + Judgement of Wisdom = ????, JoW debuff on mob

Seal of Wisdom + Judgement of Light = Mana return, JoL debuff on mob
Seal of Light + blah blah blah

I hope you see where I was trying to go with that. It'd certainly make more sense if that was the direction they were trying to take it.

Yeah, that would make sense.

On the video Coag put up, Judging with SoW up appears to do a chunk of damage that's just called "Judgement" in the combat log. So maybe SoL/SoW/SoJ will just do damage when judged (but they still need to change the tooltips.)

Originally Posted by Kigale

Reactive shield may not be ideal for tank healing, but it is amazing for pvp. 500 damage every 6 seconds for 30 seconds, thats 2500 damage avoided from a 35 mana spell. It would also be good for paladin tanks in 5 mans that can drink between pulls.

I doubt the mana cost is correct, but yeah, it's a good spell

Originally Posted by Chrix

I found this : http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j3...008_235008.jpg
I hope its working as intended but it's probably a bug

This was covered upthread; JoJ is bugged currently; anytime you get a melee hit, it refreshes JoJ and it's treated as though a new JoJ was just cast on the target. Basically, judgement damage on every melee hit.

Anyone remember when SoR/JoR scaling was off the charts in the TBC beta? Funny how every expansion seems to start with a bug that makes paladins into unstoppable killing machines.

◊ etrnl · 07/21/08, 4:40 PM

EDIT: I wasn't thinking correctly, thanks Cath.

◊ Cathela · 07/21/08, 4:42 PM

Originally Posted by atheira

We typically want to get hit in 5 mans, though. Unless they're planning on revamping the way avoidance works, that is. Crap, I tank a decent amount of heroics in half my arena healing gear just for the sake of getting a couple of hard hits so I can get mana back through heals.

Is what it would be ideal for is something like Hyjal trash where you can absorb intial impacts of the harder waves, such as Azgalor trash.

You can cast it on other people, you know. It's a healing ability, not a tanking or survival ability.

flyingtoastr · 07/21/08, 4:51 PM

Do we know if Sacred Shield has a scaling component?

Jessie · 07/21/08, 5:50 PM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

Do we know if Sacred Shield has a scaling component?

Haven't seen it yet, but I would assume it scales a little less than PW:S. I'm thinking roughly 20-25% the absorb of a priest shield or so with similar levels of spellpower.

EvadDeWahr · 07/21/08, 9:11 PM

I thought I would look forward at Wrath Builds. So far I have 51/5/15. What have other people been coming up with?

Yaiiu · 07/21/08, 9:57 PM

Originally Posted by EvadDeWahr

I thought I would look forward at Wrath Builds. So far I have 51/5/15. What have other people been coming up with?

Personally I would go for the more traditional holy/prot build which includes Divine Guardian and BoK. If the raid is taking in massive damage just think how much a raid saver it could be, "illumination + divine guardian + bol spam on different area's of the raid". Would be insane imo. Also taking BoK is just something a little extra (depending on what the other paladins talents are). Basically it's Conviction 5% crit and Heart of Crusade (which we don't even know if it stacks yet?) but you might not have a retri paladin vs what i explained above

.

GSH · 07/21/08, 11:50 PM

More testing for the mills. First, I checked, and you definitely require an active Seal in order to cast a Judgement. Also Seal of Wisdom and Seal of Light do some extra damage when unleashed. The amount looks to be a bit lower that Seal of Righteousness, but it also appears to crit for 2x damage like SoR.

New results: Seal of Righteousness, Seal of Light, Seal of Wisdom, Judgement of Light and Judgement of Wisdom all scale with both AP and SP. (I didn't test the other damage seals. This is all with zero talent points.)

Seal of Righteousness appears to follow the equation (WS = Weapon Speed):

Damage = 0.05 * WS * AP + 0.1 * WS * SP

This equation matched my experimental results perfectly. Maybe other people could take a look and see if it holds for them.

So SoR coefficients look like 5% per 1.0 weapon speed for Attack Power, and 10% per 1.0 weapon speed for Spell Power.

Will post after I attempt to calculate coefficients for the other Seals/Judgements. They all scale, that's for sure, but I haven't figured out coefficients yet.

◊ Cathela · 07/21/08, 11:58 PM

Awesome stuff, GSH!

Originally Posted by GSH

Seal of Righteousness appears to follow the equation (WS = Weapon Speed):

Damage = 0.05 * WS * AP + 0.1 * WS * SP

Can you check whether this is strictly AP scaling, or weapon damage scaling?

EDIT: Also, can you see if the coefficients differ for 1-h and 2-h weapons?

Ellerain · 07/22/08, 12:06 AM

Originally Posted by EvadDeWahr

I thought I would look forward at Wrath Builds. So far I have 51/5/15. What have other people been coming up with?

If you are taking Judgements of The Pure and are going to judge, there are no reasons to put 2 point in Deflection and not in Imp. Judgements.

GSH · 07/22/08, 12:07 AM

Originally Posted by Cathela

Awesome stuff, GSH!

Can you check whether this is strictly AP scaling, or weapon damage scaling?

EDIT: Also, can you see if the coefficients differ for 1-h and 2-h weapons?

How would I go about checking between AP scaling and weapon damage scaling?

I used unarmed (2.0) and Light's Justice (1.8) for the testing. I have no idea how the damage on fists works.

flyingtoastr · 07/22/08, 12:17 AM

Originally Posted by GSH

I used unarmed (2.0) and Light's Justice (1.8) for the testing. I have no idea how the damage on fists works.

Should be the same as a normal non-dagger 1 hander IIRC.

Ellerain · 07/22/08, 12:17 AM

Ancient Bone Mace has same 1.8 speed as Light's Justice and is obtainable from vendors. If you can take this weapon and see if SoR deals different damage, I guess, it would show if scaling with weapon damage is present, considering that removing Light's Justice will not change your AP if untalented.

Edit: Cudgel may be even betterfor this, as damage difference is more noticable.