More preliminary results:

Seal of Light: Health gained = 28% * AP + 28% * SP

Seal of Wisdom: Mana gained = 14% * AP + 14% * SP

Judgement of Light proc: Health gained = 18% * AP + 18% * SP

Judgment of Wisdom proc: Mana gained = 9% * AP + 9% * SP

Edit: Heh, guess I'll go find a cudgel. Also, for all of these, there doesn't appear to be any base amount of health/mana/damage. So far, it looks entirely dependent on your AP and SP.

Edit: Added clarification about JoL/W.

Actually, to think about it, removing Light's Justice will change your SP, so pure weapon dps testing should be done between Cudgel and Ancient Bone Mace. I'm a bit slow tonight, it seems (sad smile).

Damn it Blizzard needs to find some better nomenclature or we'll all be insane by the time Wrath comes out. I can never figure out if someone is talking about Judgement of Light/Wisdom the debuff or Judgement of Light/Wisdom the spell anymore.

Regardless, this is great for ret pallys in PvE. Even with a paltry 3000 AP you'll be looking at a good 360 mana per proc of JoW, and Seal of Wisdom regen cycles might be worked in as well. Thanks.

It's the debuff proc. Unleashing the Seal does Holy damage.

Also, I'm not sure if it's your stats that matter or the the person who cast the actual Judgment. I'm testing solo, so for me they're the same person.

The Ret players in Beta are saying that they don't need to drink anymore, just using JoW and Judgement of the Wise.

It's strictly AP scaling. There's no difference between the Cudgel and the Ancient Bone Mace for SoR.

The coefficients are the same for 1-H and 2-H weapons. There's no difference between the Ancient Bone Mace and Mag'hari Battleaxe (both 1.8 speed) for SoR.

Also, it looks like SoV scales with AP and SP as well. But it doesn't do that extra holy damage after you have a full 5-stack. Just the DoT damage.

I tested JoL and JoW in a group with a 72 paladin. I judged, he auto attacked. He gained my values of JoL and JoW. So it's the caster of the Judgement who determines how much health/mana is gained by the group.

I wonder if the result will stay the same if he would refresh your Judgement with Crusader Strike.

Their are limitations to any tandem, but most can cover everything fairly adequately with considerate speccing.

Holy (51/20, Imp BoW, BoK) / Holy (Sheath, Imp BoW, Imp BoM): This tandem provides BoK for everybody, with Imp BoM or BoW as preferred. Also, Heart of the Crusader, Imp Ret, and Imp Devo are being covered.

Holy (54/11/5, Imp BoW, BoK, Imp BoM) / Prot (BoK). This tandem provides BoK for everybody, with Imp BoM or BoW as preferred. The raid recieves Imp Conc (potentially, if even necessary), and Imp Devo. However, raid dps loses all of the various improvements to Retribution Aura, and potentially Heart of the Crusader (contingent upon how necessary certain talents will be for Prot).

Holy (Sheath, Imp BoW, Imp BoM) / Prot (BoK). This tandem once again provides BoK for everybody, with Imp BoM or BoK as preferred. The raid gets Imp Devo and Sanctified Retribution. However, there is no full time Conc Aura (I suppose you could always have your Sheathadin switch as appropriate).

Prot (BoK) / Ret (Imp BoM). The raid gets BoK all around, and either Imp BoM or regular BoW as needed. The raid also gets Imp Devo and the full Imp Ret auras, along with Heart of the Crusader.

Ret (BoK) / Holy (Sheath, Imp BoW, Imp BoM). We get BoK for everybody, and Imp BoM or BoW as preferred. Full Improved Ret Auras and Concentration Auras, but at the loss of Imp Devo. One of the Hearts of the Crusader is wasted (assuming they won't stack).

I won't even explore the Ret/Ret or Prot/Prot options, but it's already pretty plain to see that no matter how you do it, two paladins can not cover everything optimally; but there is tremendous flexibility on how to best make due. This seems like a courtesy being extended to those who will primarily run 10 mans.

I personally speculate that three paladins, one of each spec, will be intended for most 25 mans. There is still room for different speccing here, as a Ret could grab BoK and still pick up all of their essentials, allowing the Prot to skip that talent. The Holy paladin could also skip the prot tree altogether, if desired; at least as far as blessing coverage is concerned.

That's rather fascinating. It adds an element of strategy to determine who is using which Judgement in raids, depending on which you need more of: mana for the DPS, or healing. That also means that Retribution Paladins are going to have ridiculously powerful Judgements compared to Holy Paladins if they time the application to line up with trinket cooldowns.

Also, if we could get coefficient data on Seal / Judgement of Vengeance/Corruption, that would be fabulous.

Shouldn't the debuff refresh itself with each judgement, since you're necessarily judging wisdom/light in order to judge blood/martyr? So you might upgrade your debuff during your AW/trinket phase, but it would drop back to normal with your first judgement after all those buffs fade.


Also we really really really do need some sort of naming convention for these new judgements.

Very interesting. Looking forward to seeing the numbers for Vengeance. Meanwhile I'll add the results you've produced so far to the OP. Thanks!

And if you have 3+ paladins, the losers get to judge Justice.

"Hey Gimpy, make sure when you're whacking that mob with your little sword you stick to judging justice; we don't want to screw up the useful judgements."

This is really intriguing. Could you test if Sealing Light/Wisdom and judging it while under the effect of multiple AP buffs make any difference in the value of procs received thereafter?

Maybe a Blasted Lands test would be best. Seal and Judge Wisdom, while completely unbuffed, and note the mana return provided by procs. Re-Seal Wisdom, buff yourself with Might, pop a trinket, and judge again. I'm curious if the judgement done with more AP will overwrite the old one, giving us an interesting and dynamic method to increase the mana regen given to the raid.

It's all good, if CS does not overwrite Judgement values it does mean that, as Theras noted, we are allowed to select judgers based on their relative power. Note: JoL being not overwritten on reapplication may mean trinketted JoL 'rolls'.
Scaling with Avenging Wrath, on the other hand, is a bit odd, as AW increases neither AP nor SP, it's a pure damage and healing boost... I'm not sure what to make of that exactly.

Ok, let's see... JoL debuff proc is a healing, done with constant power of applicant of JoL debuff. Recipient of heal is attacker, and if producer of heal is attacker as well - then it makes sense. AW increases your healing done by 20%, you heal yourself with JoL proc from debuff applied by anyone - you get 20% more healed. Does not affect JoW. Does not affect any other players healing from proc when you apply JoL with wings because they effectively are 'healing themselves'.

Roughly equivalent when I as Ret ask Prot paladin to Judge Wisdom instead of Crusader because my Crusader is talented. The more things change the more they stay the same.

That would be even more delicious if CS overwrote the Judgement with the Ret Paladin's values, as they will almost assuredly have superior AP+SP thanks to the conversion on Sheath of Light highly favoring their stat distribution. It would really solidify a Retribution Paladin's spot in a raid.

I was wrong about Seal of Vengeance. The extra holy damage proc after a full stack still exists, just not if you have 0 spell power. Here are my initial Seal of Vengeance coefficients:

V = number of Vengeance debuffs on the target.
WS = Weapon Speed

DoT: Damage = 7% * AP + 3.4% * V * SP => 7% * AP + 17% * SP @ full stack
Proc: Damage = 1.2% * WS * SP

I can't thank you enough for your experimentation. You've really started a huge rash of theorycrafting based on this data, that's going prove most useful in preparing for what the expansion has in store for us. I know that personally I've got at least a couple blag entries in the oven derived directly from your efforts, and I want to make sure you know how much we appreciate what you're doing.

Just to make sure I'm understanding this information correctly, each tick is always doing 7% of your AP (regardless of the number of stacks), plus 3.4% of your spell power (per stack). So it's looking like the spell damage coefficient has been unchanged (and of course extended to accommodate the 20% duration increase), but its base damage has been replaced by a flat 7% AP per tick that isn't affected by the number of stacks.

Interesting. Assuming you've got 2000 AP, that means that it'll be doing a base of 140 per tick, plus 17% of whatever your spell damage may be. That's a little less than it was doing at level 70 (150 per tick), but seeing as it appears to be proccing on every hit I suppose that's not bad.

Keep it coming. All we need is Judgement info for the two tanking Seals now and we can start doing some real comparative analysis.

Again, I suspect this is intended. Retribution utility isn't dead, as some of us previously were musing; it's just been reinvented.

Yeah, that's the way it is on live right now for the proc; it's just a straight multiple of spelldamage with no base value.

Just to echo Theras, this is really fantastic work you've done, and it's going to result in a lot of theorycraft-geeking. If you're ever looking for something else to study, you could always see if weapon speed affects the chance to proc SoL/SoW (it does on live) or the chance to proc JoL/JoW (it doesn't on live).

It might well be part of the plan. It's actually not such an enormously huge gap when you account for the AP of a holy paladin (edited this into my post above).

Correct. I was quite confused because I started testing in Ret gear with 0 SP, and the SoV ticks were always the same and there was no extra proc at a full stack. I almost filed a bug against it. I didn't see increasing SoV ticks or the SoV proc until I added some SP.

To elaborate on Holy versus Ret for JoW:

Holy Paladin, getting AP buffs he doesn't get now will have extra: BoM (220), Imp. BS (380), Imp. SoE totem (217 with Kings), totalling (from 600 AP Cathela estimates they have raid-buffed) ~ 1400 Ap. He also has 1400 spellpower.

For SoW: 14% * AP + 14% * SP = 14% * 2800
Retribution paladin with 3000AP raidbuffed will get 14% * 3000
Sheathbot: 14% * 1440 + 14% * 1400*1.3 = 14% * 3220
Retribution paladin with Sheathe, as they are supposed to be: 14% * 3900.

That means you would want Retribution paladin to unphold your JoW and provide Retribution Aura, but if you don't have one, Sheathbot can replace him - with drawbacks. Sheathbot's aura does not have haste buff and his JoW is not that powerful. To me this sounds good.

We, Protection paladins, will be humbly JoJing.

Excellent work GSH

One thing i'm wondering, since the judgement for others is based of the paladins AP/SP, is the amount receieved based on the AP/SP of the paladin at the time he judged the mob, or the time you hit the mob to get the judgement. I'm guessing the former is most likely which would mean at the start of boss fights, wait until unleashed rage is on, pop an AP trinket and judge wisdom.

An endgame pala could hit 4k AP (and thus 1200SP) fairly easily. 468 mana per proc is insane.

That's great, except the Holy Paladin won't be getting those buffs. He's going to be standing on 30 yards. Two paladins means that he'll probably have BoW and BoK. Battle shout won't hit him. Imp SoE will be too far away, though the normal SoE/GoA combo totem might (out of interest, does the new crit rating mean int/agi improve the opposed crit ratings?), and unleashed rage is also a small area thing.

The one weird thing is this might result in Holy/prot 'dins taking Divine strength instead of redoubt.

My question is, if the value is determined when you judge the first time, would you wait for an unleashed rage proc before judging? Or will the value reset every 8/10/20 seconds, as your Ret/prot/holy 'dins rejudge?