WotLK talent trees/abilities discussion - Page 191

Suicidal Zebra · 10/03/08, 10:46 PM

Is the splash healing of the Glyph of Holy Light independent of overhealing? And is the same also true for the FoL HoT effect? Finally, do the splash-heal effects also contribute to healing on the Bacon?

On reflection I'd have preferred to see the Glyph mechanics reversed for the two healing spells i.e. letting HL heal for 50%+ 60% over 12 seconds, and FoL provide splash healing for 40% of amount healed, but I may be letting my inexperience show there

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Cathela · 10/03/08, 10:53 PM

Originally Posted by Suicidal Zebra

Is the splash healing of the Glyph of Holy Light independent of overhealing? And is the same also true for the FoL HoT effect? Finally, do the splash-heal effects also contribute to healing on the Bacon?

On reflection I'd have preferred to see the Glyph mechanics reversed for the two healing spells i.e. letting HL heal for 50%+ 60% over 12 seconds, and FoL provide splash healing for 40% of amount healed, but I may be letting my inexperience show there

.

I haven't played since the latest patch, but previously both glyphs have been based purely on effective healing.

(EDIT: Okay, apparently I haven't played since the patch before last. Jesus, I spend two days away from beta and all kinds of shit gets changed.)

I don't really like the FoL glyph much, because it annoyed me that it removed the option to get the normal power of the heal all up front. I think I'd probably find that effect even more annoying if it were applied to HL. (But hey, glyphs are optional; that's the point of them.)

Cathela · 10/03/08, 11:06 PM

([e] Dammit, stupid chain-posting. Sorry.)

Originally Posted by Arthaal

Bringing it inline with the corresponding DK tanking talent. Why is ours still granting %chance to crit anyways? I get it for druids, where agi stacking naturally leads to high crit chance anyways, but for us? I'd rather expertise cap easily please.

EDIT: my bad, that was the Arms talent. The prot talent Vitality is already a clone of the DK tanking one... which still begs the question of why we got crit% over expertise.

Er... dont we get both?

Combat Expertise Rank 3
Increases your expertise by 6, total Stamina and chance to critically hit by 6%.

MMO-champion doesn't show this as being changed in the latest patch, so... am I missing something here?

Zaroua · 10/03/08, 11:07 PM

Originally Posted by Cathela

But hey, glyphs are optional; that's the point of them.

No they're not. You can bet that a player who doesn't use glyphs will be at a huge disadvantage compared to a player who uses them. Same thing with enchants and gems. Glyphs are just another choice for people to make, dependent on play style and spec, but they certainly aren't optional. Unless you count gemming and enchants to be optional.

Also, assuming that the Holy Light glyph is meant to be 10 yards, it'll still be quite a buff to healing for Paladins using that glyph, especially on fights where people aren't properly stacked up. Not that it wasn't amazing before, it just makes it so that the other players in raid don't have to focus on stacking up as much on most fights.

And the Flash of Light glyph buff is somewhat interesting, but I still don't see why a Holy Paladin would want to use it.

Suicidal Zebra · 10/03/08, 11:09 PM

Thanks Cathela, I figured that would be the case

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My issue with some of the glyphs is how absurdly situational they can be, and how hard it is to switch them between encounters. This is especially the case with two-edged Glyphs like the GoFoL where its value in one encounter can be significantly at odds with its value in another, and will probably lead to them simply not being used because it is such a PITA to use them.

EDIT: The idea behind swapping the GoFoL effect to HL is that HL overheal is generally higher than FoL. Hence smoothing out HL healing by making 50% of it a HoT, backed up with FoL spam afterwards, would increase HL's effective healing efficiency.

Cathela · 10/03/08, 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by Zaroua

No they're not. You can bet that a player who doesn't use glyphs will be at a huge disadvantage compared to a player who uses them. Same thing with enchants and gems. Glyphs are just another choice for people to make, dependent on play style and spec, but they certainly aren't optional. Unless you count gemming and enchants to be optional.

Okay, why don't we just pretend that I said "Each individual glyph is optional." Is that better?

Zaroua · 10/03/08, 11:46 PM

Originally Posted by Cathela

Okay, why don't we just pretend that I said "Each individual glyph is optional." Is that better?

Not really, there's bound to be a glyph that will produce better result in a specific environment with a specific spec. The whole argument falls into the min-max thing though.

Personally, I'd think the best ways to look at glyphs is this: which glyphs will maximize my potential for the job I have to accomplish? A Beacon Paladin that spams Holy Light might be more interested in Seal of Wisdom/Holy Light/Flash of Light glyphs, while a Sheath Paladin that spams Flash of Light/Sacred Shield might be more interested in Seal of Light/Holy Light/Lay on Hands glyphs.

Just as a PvP Ret Paladin will want different glyphs than a PvE Ret Paladin. Not so much about being optional, but more about being optimal.

Thorgred · 10/03/08, 11:51 PM

How does beacon work in terms of spiritual attunement?
Ie, if you cast the beacon on yourself and heal another target, do you get mana back from that heal?

Corronach · 10/04/08, 12:13 AM

Hopefully I'm not being redundant,

Shield of the Templar now also reduces all damage taken by 1/2/3%.

I'm glad to see this change. Slap in a single target taunt and realistically prot should be ready for Wrath. I do hope they keep in mind for all future design that active abilities are what Paladins need, but I don't think anyone can objectively look at prot paladins and say they're not better then we were before.

Ret is in a similar state, although I think they should nerf the imp HoJ cooldown and see if people can adjust to Ret being strong in PVP without crying for a complete nerf of our PVE dps.

Cathela · 10/04/08, 12:38 AM

That hasn't actually appeared on the beta servers yet (unless it's been implemented but not added to the tooltip) but yeah, that makes a big difference. Very good news.

flyingtoastr · 10/04/08, 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by Corronach

Ret is in a similar state, although I think they should nerf the imp HoJ cooldown and see if people can adjust to Ret being strong in PVP without crying for a complete nerf of our PVE dps.

I think the 4-piece PvP bonus should be changed (+5 seconds on HoF is a big one that people seem to like on the beta boards), but the talent itself seems fine. By speccing for Improved HoJ you sacrifice a lot of DPS or possible off-healing utility.

Bravix · 10/04/08, 2:09 AM

Originally Posted by Redcape

I posted this before, I guess people don't search so well.

I did actually search for AoW bug, art of war bug, righteous vengeance bug etc but nothing came up.
Thanks for clarifying. Wonder what ppl are gonna say when they fix it and our DPS shoots up again.
Time for work.

BFG · 10/04/08, 2:59 AM

Small derail from horrible PvP viability of paladins - you still can block elemental melee attacks in Beta. I did some testing on 3rd encounter in Zul'Drak arena (random elemental) and my combat log looked like:

Fire Boss' melee swing hits you for 940 fire (640 resisted)(920 blocked)

Same for frost, and obviously without resist for nature as I don't have NR aura. I'll check later if I made screenshots for proof, but you can go test it if you don't believe without. This is a change in mechanics (enables HS aggro on elementals), and I think those in US beta (I'm in Euro) should ask whether this is intended or a bug - would hate it if it gets "fixed" for some Ulduar boss.

As of PvP, what do you guys think about Prot Paladin PvP viability - should it be on par with say Feral PvP? Or worse? And why?

Arthaal · 10/04/08, 3:49 AM

Originally Posted by Cathela

([e] Dammit, stupid chain-posting. Sorry.)

Er... dont we get both?

Combat Expertise Rank 3
Increases your expertise by 6, total Stamina and chance to critically hit by 6%.

MMO-champion doesn't show this as being changed in the latest patch, so... am I missing something here?

I honestly don't know where my brain went after 5 o'clock this afternoon... Yes, we do get expertise... what we don't get is strength, instead gaining crit. Our abilities all scale off strength through AP and shield block value, so it would make more sense to me if we got that instead of %crit.

Xaoc · 10/04/08, 3:53 AM

Originally Posted by BFG

As of PvP, what do you guys think about Prot Paladin PvP viability - should it be on par with say Feral PvP? Or worse? And why?

Feral is a dual purpose tree- its designed to tank and DPS. Paladin has two seperate trees for those options, so allowing Prot to have as much DPS as Ret, would make one of them obsolete.

Prinsesa · 10/04/08, 4:02 AM

After testing the Glyph of Holy Light on the PTR, the new tooltip is just a typo. It's really still a 5 yard range as far as I can tell, and doesn't work with overhealing.

Dram · 10/04/08, 4:35 AM

Originally Posted by Arthaal

I honestly don't know where my brain went after 5 o'clock this afternoon... Yes, we do get expertise... what we don't get is strength, instead gaining crit. Our abilities all scale off strength through AP and shield block value, so it would make more sense to me if we got that instead of %crit.

We already get 15% Strength at the top of the protection tree, I find it unlikely that they will give us extra strength deeper in the same tree.

Skippert · 10/04/08, 6:40 AM

Retribution also has several talents increasing melee+spellcrit chance and melee+spellcrit bonus. I wouldn't be too surprised if they'd put 2 strength talent in one tree either.

Andemoni · 10/04/08, 6:50 AM

Is it too late for Blizzard to fix our holy tree now? Most likely, but I'd like to voice my opinion on holy talents anyway, and how they could be made more desirable. Seeing how we are supposed to be the ultra defensive healer in the game, why couldn't our talents reflect this?

Aura Mastery - "Increases the radius of your auras to 40 yards."
Talent removed. The radius of all auras is now 40 yards by default, and have their own, separate GCD.

Purifying Power - "Reduces the mana cost of your Cleanse, Purify and Consecration spells by 5/10% and increases the critical strike chance of your Exorcism and Holy Wrath spells by 10/20%."
The critical strike chance portion is removed. In addition to reducing the mana cost as before, it now also reduces the global cooldown of Cleanse and Purify by 0.25/0.5 seconds.

Blessed Life - "All attacks against you have a 4/7/10% chance to cause half damage."
Talent removed, as this is completely useless and too RNG-ish. I think that instead of this, we could have a talent to augment the lackluster Divine Illumination. Make it increase the critical strike chance of all spells cast while under the effect of Divine Illumination by a certain percentage and lower the cool down of Divine Illumination?

Light's Grace - "Gives your Holy Light spell a 33/66/100% chance to reduce the cast time of your next Holy Light spell by 0.5 sec. This effect lasts 15 sec."
Now provides a passive reduction of 0.25/0.5/0.75 seconds to Holy Light. (or reduce it to 2/2 talent points with 0.25/0.5 second reduction should 0.5 second Holy Light's with IoL be too overpowered). Or in the very least, make Light's Grace proc from Holy Shock or even Flash of Light as well...

Sacred Cleansing - "Your Cleanse spell has a 10/20/30% chance to increase the target's resistance to Disease, Magic and Poison by 30% for 10 sec."
RNG mastery removed. Now reduces the chance of your Cleanse spells to be resisted by 10/20/30% and for every harmful effect removed, heals the target slightly. Cleanse is our bread and butter in PvP, make it useful again, please?

Judgements of the Pure - "Your Judgement spells increase your casting and melee haste by 2/4/6/8/10% for 1 min."
In addition, now reduces the global cool down of your Judgement spells by 0.3/0.6/0.9/1.2/1.5 seconds.

Beacon of Light - "The target becomes a Beacon of Light to all targets within a 40 yard radius. Any heals you cast on those targets will also heal the Beacon for 100% of the amount healed. Only one target can be the Beacon of Light at a time. Lasts 1 min."
Mana cost reduced. No longer dispellable.

On top of the holy changes, Pursuit of Justice could be moved to T1 protection and Improved Blessing of Kings removed (effect folded into the 1 point Blessing of Kings talent). I'd hit holy instantly even with some of these changes made.

• Chicken · 10/04/08, 6:50 AM

Originally Posted by Thorgred

How does beacon work in terms of spiritual attunement?
Ie, if you cast the beacon on yourself and heal another target, do you get mana back from that heal?

Heals from Beacon of Light count as your self cast heals, so they don't return mana from Spiritual Attunement. It should theoretically work if you have a second Paladin use Beacon of Light on you though.

Thorgred · 10/04/08, 8:21 AM

considering that we get 15% stength for 5 points i wouldnt really be complaining

I also wouldn't care if the crit got removed for no return: its still the 6% stamina that you take that talent for.

Also, awesome pickup on new Shield of the Templar.
Things prot is still missing: single target taunt. useable interrupt. 11pt talent.

Reckoning also needs serious reworking now as a Prot talent. for some reason it still has only 4 charges (heralding back to the day of the solo- Kazzak kill, which are now basically irrelevant. However it doesn't scale at all with our highest TPS tank seal, which is a BAD THING. It should be changed to dealing holy damage instead of/in addition to melee damage for your next X weapon swings - that would provide great synergy with Warrior tank weapons.

Ichal · 10/04/08, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by Fiola

It doesn't matter whether a % damage reduction works before or after other mitigation (which are also % reductions).

It matters when the damage reduction is transfered to someone else (as damage).

Avitus · 10/04/08, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

While under hit/expertise cap, for example Ret would gem for expertise/hit, while Warrior/DK gem for str/hit.

It's been established that at level 80 Ret will exclusively gem for STR, regardless of hit/expertise caps.

Originally Posted by Suicidal Zebra

This is especially the case with two-edged Glyphs like the GoFoL where its value in one encounter can be significantly at odds with its value in another, and will probably lead to them simply not being used because it is such a PITA to use them.

The real problem with FoL Glyph is that it underlines a fundamental problem with the class: We only have 2 spamable heals. Changing one of them into half potency (+HoT) with no alternative to fill the original FoL function as downranking HL doesn't work anymore is unacceptable.

I don't think there was much thought put into this when they created this Glyph.

BFG · 10/04/08, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by Xaoc

Feral is a dual purpose tree- its designed to tank and DPS. Paladin has two seperate trees for those options, so allowing Prot to have as much DPS as Ret, would make one of them obsolete.

Well I'm not talking about high DPS, there are different ways to be useful for your team. For example, Resto Druids aren't known for their high DPS but no one questions their arena viability

From what I've read, Prot Warriors are a major annoyance now with their numerous stuns and interrupts, and they are a pain to kill. To be comparable to them, Prot Paladins need something to be considered a threat, and something to stop being hopeless fodder vs. casters. Well, and something to prevent mana burns, I have 5600 mana at 80 ... Yeah, probably too much to ask

Cathela · 10/04/08, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Thorgred

considering that we get 15% stength for 5 points i wouldnt really be complaining

I also wouldn't care if the crit got removed for no return: its still the 6% stamina that you take that talent for.

Also, awesome pickup on new Shield of the Templar.
Things prot is still missing: single target taunt. useable interrupt. 11pt talent.

Reckoning also needs serious reworking now as a Prot talent. for some reason it still has only 4 charges (heralding back to the day of the solo- Kazzak kill, which are now basically irrelevant. However it doesn't scale at all with our highest TPS tank seal, which is a BAD THING. It should be changed to dealing holy damage instead of/in addition to melee damage for your next X weapon swings - that would provide great synergy with Warrior tank weapons.

I'm happy enough as far as interrupts. HoJ isn't going to let you be part of an interrupt rotation (even with talents) but it'll let you cover for someone else in an emergency which is good enough IMO.

EDIT: And completely agreed on Reckoning. As it is, going into WotLK I really see no reason to pick it up. The reasons for getting it in TBC (2-h dps, SoR) are obsolete in WotLK. With the recent nerf to SoV, it's possible for Reckoning+SoR to beat out SoV for single-target damage, but not by much, and not if those points in Reckoning keep you from getting SotP.

Given that sword spec, WF, etc work with specials, one other interesting change would be for Reckoning to work with HotR. That would be pretty cool, especially if the two HotRs bounced to different targets. It'd be even cooler if Reckoning affected SotR, but I'd imagine that brings up balance issues.

Originally Posted by BFG

Well I'm not talking about high DPS, there are different ways to be useful for your team. For example, Resto Druids aren't known for their high DPS but no one questions their arena viability

From what I've read, Prot Warriors are a major annoyance now with their numerous stuns and interrupts, and they are a pain to kill. To be comparable to them, Prot Paladins need something to be considered a threat, and something to stop being hopeless fodder vs. casters. Well, and something to prevent mana burns, I have 5600 mana at 80 ... Yeah, probably too much to ask

I've been thinking about this too and I'm going to try exploring it a bit in WotLK and see what the limits are. SotR+HotR gives us some decent, if not spectacular burst damage, and I'm wondering about HotR+SoJ against multiple casters.

My experience with TBC prot in arenas was basically that it was a lot of fun against bad teams but once you got to half-decent opponents you really couldn't do much. ~1500 seemed to be about the threshold where you stopped being all that useful. I'm not expecting the new stuff in WotLK to suddenly make Prot viable for 2000+ arena, but it'd be nice if the ceiling was bumped up by 200 points or so.