I'm starting to really like the Holy tree. The new talents are making old ones better. Divine Favor never really did it for me; in pve crit rates are high enough, and 90% of heals over healed anyway, in pvp it was ok but not nearly as powerful as Nature's Swiftness. Now with IoL it should be useful in all situations.
For anybody that's interested I did some quick math: with Benediction, Illumination returns 66.66% on HS crits. Does a IoL FoL benefit from benediction?
I'm liking it a lot too. Once they push out those buffs, it won't feel like buying 8 points of crap to get something awesome.
About HS: I didn't believe it at first, but testing confirms: HS crits do return 66% of the cost. Or, put a different way: the return is based off of the pre-talent cost. So overall a crit HS costs 30% of its untalented base cost, which (combined with the huge crit rates at 80) brings it a lot closer to FoL in mana-efficiency.
It might be intended. Sacred Shield is our version of a HoT, and multiple priests/druids can stack HoTs, so it makes sense that multiple paladins should be able to stack SS.
If it stuck around like that, top end raid groups would be 1 Holydin, 20 retadins, a feral tank or two, and some buffbots. A tank with 21 SS on it would be pretty easy to keep up, aye?
If it stuck around like that, top end raid groups would be 1 Holydin, 20 retadins, a feral tank or two, and some buffbots. A tank with 21 SS on it would be pretty easy to keep up, aye?
I doubt it is intended for SS to stack. Note there is a buff limit (around 20? I do not know what it is), so would limit the SS stacking.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
I was playing around with JotP and managed to find an interesting bug. Not sure if its been reported here or not, as I don't have the desire to search this whole thead. I posted it on the wow bug forums, but the post got deleted.
If you start with only 1 point in JotP and Judge, then put in second point and Judge, you get two JotP buffs. You can actually get 5 different JotP buffs on unique timers, one for each %. With Lights grace and 5 JotP buffs I was at 1.5 second holy lights for 28 seconds. Throw in a little DI and you can get a nice little mana regen engine with enough crit.
SirSilk, wouldn't that bonus disappear after a few minutes, once all your points are spent? Or does chain judging refresh the prior cooldowns such that you maintain a running 5-stack of JotP buffs at 3/6/9/12/15% haste even with 5 points spent in JotP?
SirSilk, wouldn't that bonus disappear after a few minutes, once all your points are spent? Or does chain judging refresh the prior cooldowns such that you maintain a running 5-stack of JotP buffs at 3/6/9/12/15% haste even with 5 points spent in JotP?
And even if you could maintain this 5-stack the entire fight. No one is going to spend 50g every mob to go respec to have one fight with a huge stack of haste. I suspect that this is a running "bug" with all talents that are programmaticaly similar to JotP, but Blizz realizes that extremely minor situations where this might possibly occur, and as such has dismissed it as deeply low on their priority to fix.
And even if you could maintain this 5-stack the entire fight. No one is going to spend 50g every mob to go respec to have one fight with a huge stack of haste. I suspect that this is a running "bug" with all talents that are programmaticaly similar to JotP, but Blizz realizes that extremely minor situations where this might possibly occur, and as such has dismissed it as deeply low on their priority to fix.
I didn't say this was the be all end all of bugs. I simply stated how it works, not what practical applications it had. I'm certain it will be fixed eventually.
No, you can not maintain the individual debuffs, only the last one. You do end up with 28 seconds of a 5 stack.
You don't typically need JotP or Beacon of Light for trash pulls in a raid setting, so there would be no need to go respec. You would however have the ability to wait until the first boss and attempt to find a way to take advantage of the increase in haste...if an advantage could even be found.
If you're going to put in that much work AND gold to use the bug for 30 seconds, I'd almost say you'd deserve to enjoy it.
Hey it is 28 seconds!
Anyway, the focus required to judgement, then click another point, judgement, etc. can likely mess up your healing more than just normal healing.
Anyway, the buff should be fixed so someone doesn't exploit it somehow. I will report it tonight.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
1. Shield Specialization has been fixed to correctly increase block value from STR, which makes Redoubt an invaluable talent. Instead of simply decoupling the bad Redoubt from the great Shield Spec, combining Redoubt and Shield Spec makes a great talent into an awesome one.
2. Our only parry-able abilities are auto-attack and Hammer of the Righteous (Shield of Righteousness used the ranged hit table), which means Expertise is not a very important stat for us. Don't assume that we lost the 4% STA just because they gave us the 6% crit. We were given the crit as a 'fun' addition to an already near-mandatory talent, and the loss of the 4% STA was a fix to our scaling.
EDIT for Kigale: Earlier testing revealed that Holy Light's that were made instant by IOL were not affected by Benediction, nor were FOLs made instant by AOW. I assume that the same holds true for FOLs made instant by IOL.
Hello Prinsesa,
Thank you very much for clarifying the mechanics on shield specialization. I do have to agree it is a great talent now that it was fixed to include block value gained from strenght. I didnt know that was fixed.
As far as the crit bonus ... you claim it was given to us for "fun". Could you elaborate on what "fun" means for you, because to me fun = useless. Main reason I ask, is because if crit is now necesary for tanking, I could max out conviction on the ret tree and gain an additional 5% crit, else I will spend does 5 points in other more useful talents.
Lastly, not to bug you, but how is the 4% loss of stamina a fix to our scaling. Are we not the worse tanking class in the game regarding health?
Anyways, thank you very much for your help, I really apreciated.
"Fun" is why we should all play this game. Big crits are "fun" and this talent helps make that happen more often. If you want to look at it from a sustained standpoint, this is roughly a 6% TPS increase, which is statistically significant. Considering most prot gearsets have around 4% to crit before talents, the added 6% is pretty substantial. Point for point this talent gives more in 3.0 than it does in live, with the only nerf being that we're only allowed 3 points to spend in it rather than 5.
Nobody said crit was necessary for tanking. This talent gives a nice bonus; leave it at that.
The scaling issue mentioned compares us directly to warriors. Prior to the change we had a 10% modifier and a 6% modifier. Now we have two 6% modifiers compared to warriors that only have one. We still gain health faster from stamina than they do, but it's not as wide a spread as it once was. And don't forget that we've had our base HP increased since beta started plus another 3% damage reduction from Shield of the Templar, so the gap between the two classes is definitely closing.
"Fun" is why we should all play this game. Big crits are "fun" and this talent helps make that happen more often. If you want to look at it from a sustained standpoint, this is roughly a 6% TPS increase, which is statistically significant. Considering most prot gearsets have around 4% to crit before talents, the added 6% is pretty substantial. Point for point this talent gives more in 3.0 than it does in live, with the only nerf being that we're only allowed 3 points to spend in it rather than 5.
Nobody said crit was necessary for tanking. This talent gives a nice bonus; leave it at that.
The scaling issue mentioned compares us directly to warriors. Prior to the change we had a 10% modifier and a 6% modifier. Now we have two 6% modifiers compared to warriors that only have one. We still gain health faster from stamina than they do, but it's not as wide a spread as it once was. And don't forget that we've had our base HP increased since beta started plus another 3% damage reduction from Shield of the Templar, so the gap between the two classes is definitely closing.
Thank you for replying so fast to my post, I really apreciated.
Dont get me wrong, I play for fun too; its just simply that for me having fun is being useful and random crit is not what I find fun. Personally if I wanted to do big crit I would play ret paladin.
Anyways, from what I am able to understand from your reply, is that crit are not important for tanks at all, and I should not bother to place points on conviction. I am correct?
As far as the crit bonus ... you claim it was given to us for "fun". Could you elaborate on what "fun" means for you, because to me fun = useless. Main reason I ask, is because if crit is now necesary for tanking, I could max out conviction on the ret tree and gain an additional 5% crit, else I will spend does 5 points in other more useful talents.
Fun might not have been the most accurate description, but basically it's "useful, but nothing to call home about". You definitely "gain" from the 6% crit (TPS gain), but at the same time it's not a make it or break it side effect that you need or something that you should stack. Considering it's a side effect of a talent, it's pretty ok.
Edit: No you don't need conviction as prot nor should you stack crit.
Originally Posted by Tilted
And don't forget that we've had our base HP increased since beta started plus another 3% damage reduction from Shield of the Templar, so the gap between the two classes is definitely closing.
As far as I recall the base HP increase was across the board for all classes including warriors. Was our gain larger than the warrior one? Do you have specific numbers?
I don't have specific numbers. I've just gone by what I've seen on EJ and on MMO-Champion, and I think I remember hearing that paladins got a slightly larger boost than warriors. Don't quote me on it.
About halfway down the page is the following post: "So with naked hp now 8164 (base hp of 6754), the pal-war hp gap has reduced modestly to 1397 (i.e. we gained about 350hp relative to warriors)"
Thank you for replying so fast to my post, I really apreciated.
Dont get me wrong, I play for fun too; its just simply that for me having fun is being useful and random crit is not what I find fun. Personally if I wanted to do big crit I would play ret paladin.
Anyways, from what I am able to understand from your reply, is that crit are not important for tanks at all, and I should not bother to place points on conviction. I am correct?
Not only is it very useful to increase threat by 6% for many of our abilities, the 6% crit will be very useful if a prot spec'd paladin is called on to heal when coupled with the crit heal bonus of touched by the light. Obviously an increase to crit is only reliable as a TPS increase over a protracted period of time as it is completely unreliable as a means to establish early agro.
So whats likely the best ret PVE build at the moment? I have seen a few links, but there have been some changes since then, plus some talent calculators aren't reflecting the current changes. Plus since I don't have a beta key, so I can't test some of the talents.
For PvE ret you just take all the DPS-increasing talents in the ret tree and then pick up divine strength. You can also take kings since you'll have enough points left over.
PvE ret doesn't need or benefit from much in either of the other two trees apart from divine strength, so you're left with plenty of talent points to take everything you need in ret. I imagine it hasn't been discussed much because there simply isn't much to discuss - there's a few leftover points at the end that can go wherever but that's about it.
So whats likely the best ret PVE build at the moment? I have seen a few links, but there have been some changes since then, plus some talent calculators aren't reflecting the current changes. Plus since I don't have a beta key, so I can't test some of the talents.
This is attainable at 70, pretty much everything in there is a must for optimum DPS. The only exception are the 2 points in PoJ which you can shift into imp BoM if needed.
This is just a suggestion of how to deal with the 10 more points you get at 80, though it's in no way as rigidly required to get it exactly this way as it is with the "bare bones spec" (where almost every point is required). The 10 extra points are put in utility that makes most sense from a PvE raiding perspective, though they won't affect your personal DPS.
It's the same as the previous build +Imp BoK, Imp BoM, SoC (you will need it in some PvE encounters) and two left over points put into Imp Ret Aura (nothing else makes much sense for PvE and maxing it is beneficial for your tanks, specifically protadins).
For PvE ret you just take all the DPS-increasing talents in the ret tree and then pick up divine strength. You can also take kings since you'll have enough points left over.
PvE ret doesn't need or benefit from much in either of the other two trees apart from divine strength, so you're left with plenty of talent points to take everything you need in ret. I imagine it hasn't been discussed much because there simply isn't much to discuss - there's a few leftover points at the end that can go wherever but that's about it.
Assuming you get Imp Might, Kings and Divine Strength you'll have 2 points leftover which I normally stick in Pursuit of Justice. Running quickly between adds is a nice DPS increase as you can see in the Enhance Shaman think tank article.
Maybe I'm speccing in the wrong things then, cause with all dmg increasing talents and raid utility talents, I'm left with only 4 points left for divine strength till I can hit lvl 71.
EDIT: Thanks for the links Avitus. I was putting 2 points into Imp Ret aura, so thats why I was coming up short. I heard from beta testers that it was doing great damage AND scaling, so I thought it was worth the 2 points, if anything, for the tank. Is it not worth it? I should have asked how much damage "great damage" was.
Ret Aura is doing better damage then on live, its still not enough that I would take it at level 70 its certainly a talent that gets better as you level and you have more flexibility with your talent points. I think at level 80 in mostly SWP gear my Ret aura does ~250 damage per attack.
EDIT: Thanks for the links Avitus. I was putting 2 points into Imp Ret aura, so thats why I was coming up short. I heard from beta testers that it was doing great damage AND scaling, so I thought it was worth the 2 points, if anything, for the tank. Is it not worth it? I should have asked how much damage "great damage" was.
I can't get on beta server right now to give you specifics since it's down, but Imp Ret Aura is really just taken as a "meh no where else to put the points". It's much better than it is on live, but that's about it, in reality it makes almost no statistical difference.
At level 70 you'll only have Ret Aura rank 6 which returns 62 damage whenever struck. It gains ~1 damage per 15 spellpower.
Assuming 0 spelldamage, Imp Ret Aura will add 31 more holy damage.
200 spelldamage, Imp RA will add: 37.6 holy damage
500 spelldamage, Imp RA will add: 47.6 holy damage
1000 spelldamage, Imp RA will add: 64.3 holy damage
(I'm going to ignore multipliers for now, keep in mind this is increased a little bit by multipliers, but we're talking about such small numbers it really doesn't matter).
In a boss fight, usually only your tank will benefit from this, adding a whopping 31-64.3 DPS to the raid assuming a very generous 1 proc per second.
For soloing the Improved part of Ret Aura is equally overrated, the only exception is if you AoE grind with a very large number of mobs, then it could make a slight difference.
At level 80 things look up slightly as the base damage is increased from 62 to 112, making "Imp" RA somewhat better, yet still nothing more than a points dump since there's nothing better to put them in (strictly speaking about PvE).
Thanks for the breakdown. I definately want to maximize my raid utility to be "that guy" you want in raids, but it's nice to know it isn't a necessity at the moment. Thanks guys.
Has there ever been a coherent explanation given for why Sacred Shield is unaffected by Spell Power granted by Sheath of Light? Differentiating between sources of Spell Power almost seems nonsensical at this point. I'm not even talking about equivalent scaling between Holy and Retribution, an additional multiplier could easily be folded into any of the latter tier Holy talents, but to not modify it at all when Sheath of Light grants the exact statistic needed to scale Sacred Shield?
While this may sound odd, one of the more attractive aspects of the expansion—for me—was the streamlining of much of the game's looney mechanics, and this seemingly opposes that in the most unpredictable of ways.
10/08/08, 2:41 PM
Similar Threads
