To reach Conviction the no brainers are obviously Benediction and Imp/ Judgements. So is the thought that Imp. BoM is better Utility than Heart of the Crusader? I assumed that since I would be judging to not only keep up Wisdom but to maintain JotP that the Raidwide crit gain would be better than the AP gain from Imp. Might. Am I missing something?
Why would you take Imp Judgements? You want to judge as little as possible to minimize the number of GCDs you lose. You really only need to judge once every 20s to keep up JoW.
Why would you take Imp Judgements? You want to judge as little as possible to minimize the number of GCDs you lose. You really only need to judge once every 20s to keep up JoW.
Ahhh.. my bad. ;-) I've been playing with a Shockadin leveling build with JotW and I just got used to Imp. Judgements being there. Thanx.
A little off topic but does anybody know anything about Assassination dps? Master Poisoner - Spell - World of Warcraft doesn't stack with Heart of the Crusader, so is a bit of our utility lost or will there not be assassins to worry about?
Toaster remember that the far majority of Holy paladins will have Imp BoM. If you have 2 holy paladins in raid, you should be sorted.
Divine Guardian is a really strong talent (offers a 2nd shield wall for a tank or quite large aoe dmg reduction). And holy is the only spec who can take it without botching up the spec (ret) or use it without restrictions (prot).
Alternatively at 80, BoL specced Holy paladins can take BoK with only minor losses (3 % spell crit).
Increasing the cost of all spells by ~1.8% and reducing throughput by ~1.5% are not "minor losses" for a healer. They're a sacrifice.
Would someone mind telling me exactly what Prot Paladins lose for taking Kings? Sanctuary is a luxury in comparison to Might/Wisdom and Kings, even for a tank.
Increasing the cost of all spells by ~1.8% and reducing throughput by ~1.5% are not "minor losses" for a healer. They're a sacrifice.
Would someone mind telling me exactly what Prot Paladins lose for taking Kings? Sanctuary is a luxury in comparison to Might/Wisdom and Kings, even for a tank.
You have to drop at least one threat or utility talent, which might be a big deal depending on your raid composition. Sanctuary is also flat out better for tanks than Might and *definitely* better than Wisdom. In WotLK from what I've seen so far, your tanks threat isn't really a large issue, making Might less good, Wisdom simply provides less mana regeneration than Sanctuary does for Protection Paladins. Also Sanctuary reduces damage by 3%, which is less good than Kings for survival, but better than the other two blessings. Finally, Sanctuary helps Warriors and Druids especially for threat consistency during avoidance streaks, which can be a big deal early on in a fight.
As for exact talents lost: You'll typically lose Reckoning, and you also have to either get rid of Seals of the Pure, or not pick up Heart of the Crusader (Usefulness of which depends on your raid setup) and Pursuit of Justice (And even with a ranged taunt 15% extra movement speed is awesome for a tank).
Anyway, depending on how the dual spec system works in 3.1 this might all be a moot point anyway. If it's going to work as freely as is being said at Blizzcon, then pretty much any Paladin has the capability of having Kings on their secondary spec while not sacrificing anything in their primary spec.
Last edited by Chicken : 10/12/08 at 7:31 AM.
buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of
Kings is dumb. 25 man content will be balanced around it making it required. 10 man content shouldn't be balanced around it since a paladin can't be guaranteed, so having it makes an encounter easier which makes having a paladin required which forces Blizzard to balance 10 mans around it. Pretty dumb design. Either get rid of it completely or roll it into Sanctuary so a tank can give both, or give the buff to another class. +10% stat aura to whichever spec is currently the weakest.
A little off topic but does anybody know anything about Assassination dps? Master Poisoner - Spell - World of Warcraft doesn't stack with Heart of the Crusader, so is a bit of our utility lost or will there not be assassins to worry about?
Mutilate is a very strong build (quite possibly the highest potential dps, even over combat swords, if the rogue is good enough at watching their timers and managing their energy/CPs).
That said, if there's a pally around to maintain HotC, they'd all much rather spec into Turn the Tables for +6% crit on Mutilate (and they can't get both, as the points are simply too tight and there are better alternatives available in their secondary trees, whereas HotC is pretty much a given for any Ret spec).
Thanks for the well written response. I guess that leaves us that utility .... unless of course melee hunters become the fotm!
You may have missed the memo where Blizzard is trying to ensure that there is no class/spec that brings any unique utility to a raid...
Everything is supposed to be replaceable by something else. If a raid without a retadin is gimped in some fashion, Blizz has messed up. Shadow priests and survival hunters duplicate replenishment, BM hunters duplicate the damage bonus on talented ret aura (or are supposed to - there was a blue post suggesting FI was intended to be raid-wide and presumably non-stacking), battle shout duplicates BoM, assassination rogues duplicate the 3% crit (and elemental shaman? I think there's is spell-only but I'm not sure if it stacks or not), and I'm not sure if the haste from talented ret aura stacks with windfury and/or wrath of air.
You may have missed the memo where Blizzard is trying to ensure that there is no class/spec that brings any unique utility to a raid...
You missed the memo where they said they are alright with certain unique utilities. Heroism, Wrath of Air, Judgements in General, Kings, Battle Res, Power Word: Fortitude...
Yes, but Ret is the only tree that sacrifices only utility to pick it up. You don't lose any DPS throughput (aside from conditionals like PoJ) for speccing Kings.
Maybe I'm missing something here, but I just calculated it out and even with SotP SoR is coming out a little behind Blood for me.
Someone check my math eh?
The argument we're working with at the moment is that SotP + SoR would add a DPS gain, so you DO lose DPS assuming this is true.
On the other hand, yea I've been relying on numbers from the ret thread spreadsheet, however I too can't help but feel that something is fishy with SoR + SotP > SoB. From practical tests, despite specing 5/5 SotP for testing purposes I'm getting better results with SoB (hitting harder, judging harder as well as being able to crit).
I'm somewhat swamped with work at the moment, but I'll try to go over your math as well as break down the spreadsheet to see where the difference lies.
Originally Posted by mkultra55
Just a quick question as to why everyone is saying most Holy Pallies will be getting Imp. BoM.
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So is the thought that Imp. BoM is better Utility than Heart of the Crusader?
Assuming you'll have a Ret paladin (which this argument is based on), you don't need HotC. Also as others have stated, you really don't need imp Judgement when raiding as holy.
Originally Posted by Malleus
Increasing the cost of all spells by ~1.8% and reducing throughput by ~1.5% are not "minor losses" for a healer. They're a sacrifice.
It was more the thought that where as every statistical point for DPS counts, healing (to an extent) is more of an art form than a statistical breakdown of points. Skill and coordination matters more than pure stats. In full SW healing plate, I couldn't care less if you took 5% crit away, I'd still be able to heal fairly well (obviously this depends on gear level vs content level). In contrast, skill in DPS will not allow you to do more damage than your gear can support.
It's the mentality that once you're above a certain limit and can keep your targets alive, it doesn't matter how much extra crit or throughput or regen you have. In contrast, killing things faster is always desirable, it shortens the fight duration and works in favor of healer longevity.
Anyway, it ends up "cost of all spells by ~1.8% and reducing throughput by ~1.5%" for holy vs "~2.5% damage" for Ret. As said, we don't know yet, we still need to conclusively work out SoR vs SoB.
Read this very carefully (preemptive derail avoidance): Do not turn this into a back and forth banter about specs over a throw-away remark. It "really" doesn't matter what I or others think about this, I just thought I'd illustrate why I think 3% spellcrit in the grand scheme of things is not a major loss, but I can accept if you hold it more dear than I do.
Originally Posted by Chicken
Anyway, depending on how the dual spec system works in 3.1 this might all be a moot point anyway. If it's going to work as freely as is being said at Blizzcon, then pretty much any Paladin has the capability of having Kings on their secondary spec while not sacrificing anything in their primary spec.
This is actually a pretty interesting point that has the potential to throw everything upside down. Depending on how (or if) they choose to handle it, it could end up one big mess. Sigh, I really have to wonder why they're being so stubborn about BoK. It's gone from 31 point ret, to midlevel prot (iirc) to T3 prot to 5 point talent in T1 prot. Just take it out or baseline it already.
Regarding the SoR +SotP > SoB discussion, so far all the calculations i have done (assuming Sheath effects everything) have shown SoB to be top.
The two quick things that stand out is the SoR is doing more damage than SoB and JoB is doing more damage than JoR.
This effect means that Str, AP, Haste and Weapon Expertise all favour S/JoR more , and Agi,Crit,Weapon DPS, Weapon Speed all favour S/JoB more, whilst hit has a equal effect on both.
With the different stats favouring different abilities, whilst it is theoretically possible to stack towards AP/Haste etc to put SoR on top, with the distribution of stats on raiding gear S/JoB is coming out by 5-10% more damage than S/Jor.
My calculations have left out boss resistance which if my understanding of the abilities is correct should also push in favour of SoR, however I still personally feel SoB is ahead. The difference is small, but from what I can tell in terms of dps
You missed the memo where they said they are alright with certain unique utilities. Heroism, Wrath of Air, Judgements in General, Kings, Battle Res, Power Word: Fortitude...
I believe Blizzard is fine with class-unique utility as long as its not spec-specific. That seems to be the pattern anyways (with kings a bit of an outlier since it's talented, though it's accessible to all specs (with greater or lesser sacrifices as has been discussed), and some of the others have talents that improve them). Now HotC is low enough (and ret attractive enough as a subspec) that most paladins will probably have it regardless of spec, so it didn't overly need to have alternatives (though the assassination rogues will hardly complain about being able to skip those talent points and just let the paladins put up the crit buff).
Didn't they do away with that in Beta? I was under the impression that you no longer had to relearn abilities with every respec.
You don't have to relearn the ability, but if you switch off of the Kings spec back to your primary spec, everyone who has a Kings buff from you will lose it. At least, that's my suspicion.
I was under the impression that we (mostly) agreed on SoR/SoV vs SoB, in that the differences between the seals was very small until you factor in haste. The ability to crit on SoB more or less cancels out the 15% SoR/SoV damage increase from SotP, but when you start adding haste in addition to having the ability to crit, SoB comes out the clear winner. And don't say 'well what if you don't have haste', quite a few people have this at 70 already and it looks plentiful on 80 gear.
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SoB scales WORSE with haste than SoR. SoR procs on only 2 specials, while SoB procs on 3. Both proc on autoattacks 100% of the time and as such when you are using SoR you benefit more from haste than SoB in relative terms. So yes, people at 70 have haste, and yes, they will have it at 80. This isn't convincing anyone that SoB is better.
I have a spreadsheet made that takes all raid/gear stats from a level 80 paladin with full naxx10 gear. With 3/5 SotP or better SoR does more damage. With 0/5 SotP SoR does about 3% less damage, with 5/5 it does about 3% more damage. Since 3/5 SotP is something you can get absolutely trivially with a ret pve build while missing nothing, I would suggest SoR as the best seal for level 80.
Note with that build you might want to drop 2/2 Imp Ret Aura for more SotP, and you might also be able to get away with dropping Kings, Swift Retribution, Sanctified Retribution or Pursuit of Justice depending on circumstance and raid composition. There are a number of ways to get up to 5/5 SotP, but since 3/5 is easy to get without missing anything good, I like SoR as the basic seal for now.
One caveat is that the latest build mucked with a ton of things that might alter my numbers. The WD coefficient on Blood went up to 45%, SoC got a spellpower coefficient and SoR got 2hspec added onto it. In addition to that all kinds of things are bugged to hell, especially Sheath. As such my sheet reflects the previous build since I don't really have any idea what is right or wrong with this new build.
You don't have to relearn the ability, but if you switch off of the Kings spec back to your primary spec, everyone who has a Kings buff from you will lose it. At least, that's my suspicion.
Gotcha, I see what you mean now. While this feature is still in the works, I think it's safe to say that it's not Blizzard's intention for players to be running around with secondary buff specs, solely meant to circumvent the choices talent points are meant to create.
1. SoR is possibly the most boring seal we have.
2. I cannot imagine Blizzard would want to make two seals completely useless. If SoR pulls ahead for ret, it will be fixed.
Pardon if I fell out of the loop, but did SOR only get back into the limelight because it's now being affected by Sheath of Light (which may or may not be intended)?
It's a little jarring to hear about Holy having soloing problems purportedly because SOR hits like a day-old kitten and then having it compared to SOB within a few pages.
I hate to say it, but Holy solo at 80 is quite bearable. Today I specced 51/5/15 to test Holy in Naxx, and after the raid I went to do some dailies in full healing gear. In mix of 70 epics and Northrend blues, with healing mace and shield, using SoV, JoW, Shock and ShR, DPS wasn't stellar - felt slightly lower than prot - but there was literally no downtime, I was looting the mob and immediately running to next one, regenning mana faster than I could spend it. As prot I was killing mobs maybe 1-2 GCDs faster (my prot gear is vastly superior), but 5600 mana was tight even with BoS, I had to drink from time to time.
As of healing, 51/5/15 build has all improved blessings missing only 3% crit (a sacrifice, yes), healing while trying to manage JotP haste, BoL and SS is immensely more involving and complicated compared to lvl70 facerolling, and to lvl80 JotW build max HL spam. I don't have efficiency numbers, but what's important - it feels fun. Just let's hope that they buff deep holy enough to justify BoL builds in raids...
No, this is not a whine post. It's legal to be a pessimist.
I would agree with you (I've been running around Icecrown as 51/0/20 for a change of pace), but right now the reason Holy is so decent is because JoW is bugged to hell. It has a 100% proc rate with no internal cooldown, so you're getting massive amounts of mana back. I would expect once that is normalized holy will go back to about the state it is now--bearable but dull.
10/12/08, 3:53 AM
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