I'm probably going to run something similar to this to raid/solo. I may not even put the points in divine intellect and throw 2 more points into ret. Divine Strength would be good, but if you plan on healing, the 3 points in Healing Light are really hard to pass up. Divine Storm isn't even a necessity, but the ability is so much fun when doing melee I wanted to grab it.
I should have tried it in beta myself, but I just though of it now.
Do you guys think it would be possible to play as a melee-style-healer in normal instances as a 51 retri guy?
Normal meleeing (to get crits), judging light, hitting divine storm at every cool down, and in between do instant FoL on tank, and when at need, cast a Holy.
In terms of consumables post 3.0, which flask should have the highest effect on tanking? Fort was obviously my first guess, but with the conversion of stam -> sp, as well as str -> block, I started wondering if Chromatic Wonder might be worth it.
Given the changes to how pushback works, Imp. Concentration Aura is a lot less useful. 2/2 Imp BoW is probably better, and then a point in Blessed Life or Imp. LoH.
Ironically, like every other healing class looking forward to Imp. Conс aura, so they can drop their pushback talents.
This seems to me like the most Raid-Friendly Retribution Spec. I don't like missing out on 3/3 Swift Retribution, but Divine Guardian has sooooo much potential. Even with an Improved Moonkin, I'm not sure if his aura will reach melee. If if it will, through careful planning of his positioning, then perhaps that point could be better used elsewhere.
I don't care about missing Sanctified Retribution, because we usually have at least one BM hunter, and 3/3 Ferocious Inspiration is more than 1/1 Sanctified Retribution. It might not have 100% uptime, but it should be pretty close depending on the hunter's gear.
EDIT:
This is my favorite Prot spec, but I'm not sure where to put the last three points, I was thinking either Divine Intellect or Benediction, 9% more mana, or 6% cheaper spells. Decisions, decisions.
Last edited by Petersen : 10/14/08 at 7:01 AM.
¬The Original PalaTank, William Erik Petersen The Unbreakable
Tanking with a Paladin since before it was cool.
I'm probably going to run something similar to this to raid/solo. I may not even put the points in divine intellect and throw 2 more points into ret. Divine Strength would be good, but if you plan on healing, the 3 points in Healing Light are really hard to pass up. Divine Storm isn't even a necessity, but the ability is so much fun when doing melee I wanted to grab it.
How do you imaging healing in twins fight with this build? Usually people use 'hug-column' tactics. If you stay down to judge, you run too much to not loose the tank as well as have a chanse to be stunned (3sec without a landing heal is deadly). If you stay up you can't judge to restore mana. I see problems with M'uru and Kil'Jaeden healing too. Well, basically I don't see potential problems for your gear lvl only in Kalec fight, BT/MH and below. But in BT you may as well heal without any talents and be probably fine.
Don't get me wrong, but your spec is OK for fights you outgear. Aka fights where spec isn't really important. If some T5/low-T6 geared person tries this spec in SWP he will fail.
This is my favorite Prot spec, but I'm not sure where to put the last three points, I was thinking either Divine Intellect or Benediction, 9% more mana, or 6% cheaper spells. Decisions, decisions.
I don't get why you take seals of the pure and divine guardian. Why not take heart of the cursader, conviction, persuit of justice or vindication?
I don't get why you take seals of the pure and divine guardian. Why not take heart of the cursader, conviction, persuit of justice or vindication?
Well, Divine Guardian can be extremely nice for tankadin as OT on 1-tank boss. Or when raid wide shield wall is needed. Few examples : Magtheridon nova, last % of Entropius encounter, Archimonde when a few people died, loads of moments in KJ encounter when reflections tank can use it.
I don't get why you take seals of the pure and divine guardian. Why not take heart of the cursader, conviction, persuit of justice or vindication?
To get any of that T3 Retribution stuff I would need to spend 3 more points in Retribution (assumed as Benediction, since Heart of the Crusader will be redundant with the Retribution Paladin that is sure to be in the raid) and would therefore have to give up some vital lower-tree Prot stuff, or Seals of the Pure. I really don't think Conviction, or any other suggestions you pose would make up for the threat loss from Seals of the Pure. Divine Guardian (as well as 1/5 Reckoning) is sort of 'filler'. I need 3 more points in the upper Prot tree and they seemed best placed in Divine Guardian/Reckoning (though Stoicism is a close second).
¬The Original PalaTank, William Erik Petersen The Unbreakable
Tanking with a Paladin since before it was cool.
Can anyone confirm the talent tree on mmo-champion ?
It seems they didn't update the end of the Holy tree (New IoL, EJ and JotP) ...
Do you think we will see it before the launch of Wotlk ?
The talent trees as they appear on MMO-Champion are accurate insofar as the last known build of the PTR/currently playable build of the beta.
It is quite possible that the patch we're getting today is not going to be that last PTR build, but rather a more updated build that includes these Holy (and Prot) changes that were announced but never made it into the public releases.
Most of the Blizzard staff was probably busy with Blizzcon, which explains why the PTR/beta was never updated, but only time will tell if they'll either release the same build or go with an updated one that hasn't been tested yet. Mind you, Warriors and other classes are also awaiting their own talent changes with bated breath.
Fake edit: MMO-champ has the final patch notes, and indeed the patch notes don't reflect the last round of changes, but given that the patch notes are horribly outdated (Vengeance still stacking to 2), I think it's safe to say that this is a case of "wait until you're actually in-game or someone decides to datamine the trees"
The patch to live is 9056 build, latest beta build is 9061. So it won't have newer stuff that what's on beta. It is a later build from the PTR though.
What does this mean in terms of our talents, though? AFAIK, even the beta build doesn't have the IOL/JOTP/Enlightened Judgements/Shield of the Templar changes.
An interesting thing that might happen if it's the build that's on the PTRs and Beta is that the extreme Judgement proc rates will go live. Somehow I'm expecting a hotfix after that happens.
Well, Divine Guardian can be extremely nice for tankadin as OT on 1-tank boss. Or when raid wide shield wall is needed. Few examples : Magtheridon nova, last % of Entropius encounter, Archimonde when a few people died, loads of moments in KJ encounter when reflections tank can use it.
Am I misunderstanding how the talent works? The way I read the tooltip, everyone in 30 yards gives 30% of their damage to you. I.e. if there's raidwide damage going out, and you're standing next to four people, you're already taking 120% damage. (It's even more because it's using their mitigation instead of yours.) For the concrete example of Mag's Nova, if you're taking novas it means things are already going badly. So you pop shield to help the raid. If you're in range of 15 people (reasonable?), each tick hits you for ~11k. Your sacrifice will be remembered, but you're not going to live through the experience. (Assuming it ticks twice. If it only ticks once, no one was going to die anyway.)
It's a quirky talent that seems like it will have some cool situational uses, but in the case of large raid damage you're gonna get gibbed. OTOH, it's far enough down that it's a real stretch for Holy or Ret to pick up.
EDIT: Whoops, damage is applied pre-bubble, not post-bubble. Nevermind.
To get any of that T3 Retribution stuff I would need to spend 3 more points in Retribution (assumed as Benediction, since Heart of the Crusader will be redundant with the Retribution Paladin that is sure to be in the raid) and would therefore have to give up some vital lower-tree Prot stuff, or Seals of the Pure. I really don't think Conviction, or any other suggestions you pose would make up for the threat loss from Seals of the Pure.
Threat generation has been greatly increased. I don't think you need to worry about this.
Last edited by allythepally : 10/14/08 at 11:40 AM.
Sozar got it - Divine Guardian has been changed to only work with Divine Shield, which is when you're immune to all damage anyway. This allows a Tankadin to take it and still have 'safe' use of his Divine Protection, but is rather situational since you'll never bubble in a tanking situation anyway.
Or rather, if you did, it would be to save your own hide, not to save the raid from some AOE damage.
An interesting thing that might happen if it's the build that's on the PTRs and Beta is that the extreme Judgement proc rates will go live. Somehow I'm expecting a hotfix after that happens.
Sozar got it - Divine Guardian has been changed to only work with Divine Shield, which is when you're immune to all damage anyway. This allows a Tankadin to take it and still have 'safe' use of his Divine Protection, but is rather situational since you'll never bubble in a tanking situation anyway.
Or rather, if you did, it would be to save your own hide, not to save the raid from some AOE damage.
Ah! I assumed that since bubble eliminates damage, they would say "reduces party/raid damage" instead of "damage is redirected to the paladin." I didn't realize the confusing wording was a relic of a previous version. That makes that talent a LOT better!
I dunno if it'll happen, but it'd have to be rating.
Well there's no functional difference between "Mana Regen Percentage Rating" and mp5.
Really, if they want mp5 to be a viable stat they'll have to make it cheaper. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised to see that happen in a patch or two. With the downranking nerf, a bit more mp5 on gear probably wouldn't be imbalanced.
Originally Posted by Petersen
To get any of that T3 Retribution stuff I would need to spend 3 more points in Retribution (assumed as Benediction, since Heart of the Crusader will be redundant with the Retribution Paladin that is sure to be in the raid) and would therefore have to give up some vital lower-tree Prot stuff, or Seals of the Pure. I really don't think Conviction, or any other suggestions you pose would make up for the threat loss from Seals of the Pure. Divine Guardian (as well as 1/5 Reckoning) is sort of 'filler'. I need 3 more points in the upper Prot tree and they seemed best placed in Divine Guardian/Reckoning (though Stoicism is a close second).
SotP is certainly better from a threat perspective than Conviction, but if threat isn't an issue (indications are that it won't be in T7 at least) Conviction is nice for the off-healing utility. Plus, SotR crits are fun.
Also with the interrupt on HoJ, I like Imp. HoJ as a tanking talent a lot more.
Originally Posted by allythepally
Ah! I assumed that since bubble eliminates damage, they would say "reduces party/raid damage" instead of "damage is redirected to the paladin." I didn't realize the confusing wording was a relic of a previous version. That makes that talent a LOT better!
Actually, I think the wording is deliberate, because there are forms of damage that go through Divine Shield. (Chaos Bolt for warlocks, and any PvE boss ability that the devs don't want you to be able to bubble out of.)
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
From the blue posts on the beta paladin forums over the last few days, it seems the honeymoon is clearly over. They don't seem to want to acknowledge concerns anymore (check the thread about single-target taunt, and that about AOE healing). They fail to address concerns about even small things like Spiritual Focus or radius of Auras. Seems they're back their "we're right, you're wrong and we ain't changing it" attitude we've been so painfully used to for so many years. They've been brushing away prot and holy concerns, and given that it's numerically proven that both specs are lacking compared to equivalents from other classes, I think we can expect to see a bit of attrition when it comes to guilds min-maxing for progression.
Well there's no functional difference between "Mana Regen Percentage Rating" and mp5.
But look at armor penetration.
If it's total mana, then it would be rating and I could see it working out, however there's potential concerns down the road since one stat (mana regen rating) scales with the other used for same purpose (int).
If it's base then it doesn't matter any static mp5-like stat will be outpaced by int for paladins at least - or it would be overly strong for all other classes.
An interesting thing that might happen if it's the build that's on the PTRs and Beta is that the extreme Judgement proc rates will go live. Somehow I'm expecting a hotfix after that happens.
It is build 9056 that is going on live, the last version on the PTR/Beta was 9038. So there will be a lot of changes that were said but not implemented yet, and a probably few surprises.
If it's base then it doesn't matter any static mp5-like stat will be outpaced by int for paladins at least - or it would be overly strong for all other classes.
That's a good point. I guess I'm just used to the old situation where mp5>>>>int for paladin healing, and now it's been changed so that int>>>>>mp5. But if mp5 is still useful for other healers at its current pricing then that's just the way it is.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
I know there has been posts, but is there any speculation or predictions on what will be in the 4th ZA chest? Is there a source for the rumor that a neck piece would replace the ZA bear mount?
10/14/08, 2:30 AM
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