WotLK talent trees/abilities discussion - Page 211

• frmorrison · 09/09/08, 9:28 AM

The only issue is 20% of total mana on a judgement makes Holy really powerful, since they will have around 20k mana at 80.
JotW should be changed to 25-30% of base mana instead.

Divine Plea being like Bloodrage sounds neat (lose some life for rage).

Noctivagant · 09/09/08, 9:37 AM

Originally Posted by Blackthought

Mana issues with Ret will not be fixed until we have the ability to regen mana when we have been reduced to 0. If this is acceptable for shaman then it has to be acceptable for paladins. I also believe that seals need to become weapon imbues like shaman have so that they are not dispellable and last longer than 2 mins. This would have the added benefit of allowing sanctified seals to be made into something more interesting.

Well, DP takes care of the 0 state, *if* it's decent. If JoTW can hold us up long enough for DP to come around then we have the perpetual motion machine we seek. DP needs to be shorter than 5 minutes, more like 2-3. JoTW-20 and a 2 min ability that would cover say 33-50% would shut me up =)

I imagine working the work, getting mostly a profit, but slowly dropping until, ta-da, DP comes around, back to full, then back to slowly falling, slowly working it down, DP comes up, etc. I dont have a Shaman with SR, but again, I imagine this cycle to be like Water Shield + SR.

I couldn't agree more on Seals. Are we meant to switch them up or not? It takes a nasty 28% just to get out of your current seal, do something and come back. One of the JoTW-20 doesn't even cover a single seal change and back!

This is a big part of my resistance to SoW.

- If you balance around using it all the time, then its a crutch and it makes the damage seals meaningless.
- If its intended to be a mana regen mechanic, the first 14% you generate has to make up the cost of casting it, then you have to regen up (slowly) and then are going to pay 14% to get out of it and back to damage

If you think about it SoW is no different than a weak HoT that would do 14% damage to your health when it started and 14% damage when it ended!

Why do all the seals have to have the same costs anyway? Enc Shaman have say, shocks and totems that have various costs, why not seals? Furthermore, if the point of SoW is to get mana back, maybe it shouldn't have a cost?

Blackthought · 09/09/08, 9:54 AM

I also think that having JotW return a set perecentage of base mana (regardless of the percentage) is a stupid idea. I am not a fan of non-scaling mechanics (other than the energy system). There should be some scaling component. I would argue that having it return a percentage of the damage caused on judgment or CS makes more sense. That would allow for scaling of rets and reduce the worry that it makes holy overpowered.

Geerock · 09/09/08, 10:01 AM

I like what I'm hearing in regards to the mana regen, but they might be right in that it's too powerful for a Holy build.

So spec that deep into ret, would it hurt holy that much? I don't think it would. Especially with SP being the new mechanic and Holy Shock being a nasty nasty ranged spell now.

If they keep it as it is, we mught see a whole new version of Paladin... Wait, isn't that what they are going for anyway?

Hylo · 09/09/08, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by Blackthought

I also think that having JotW return a set perecentage of base mana (regardless of the percentage) is a stupid idea. I am not a fan of non-scaling mechanics (other than the energy system). There should be some scaling component. I would argue that having it return a percentage of the damage caused on judgment or CS makes more sense. That would allow for scaling of rets and reduce the worry that it makes holy overpowered.

Blizzard seems to be a fan of non-scaling mechanisms what it comes to mana-regen. It's easy to see why. Once your basic dps-rotations is set up, the cost of that rotation is not going to change when you move from Naxx to Icecrown. DPS-scaling comes from offensive stats, not from "ability to spam more". I believe this all has been discussed in this thread already.

In other words, rets don't need scalable sustainability. Rets should be self-sufficient from greens to the best epics from Icecrown. If you are self-sustaining there is no need for scaling.

Only healers should have scaling mana-regeneration and they also have it, in form of regeneration stats in gear.

levk · 09/09/08, 10:53 AM

The mana regen from replenishment (the 10 person buff) scales as it should. It scales with int which rets don't have but that's not the point. This is because caster mana consumption scales with haste. Ret mana consumption doesn't scale with anything as it's cooldown limited. You could argue that ret regen should scale so that it would allow for more expensive rotations as your gear improves like the warriors get more rage and convert that to damage. This is a flawed argument I think - nobody will take rets to raid until they get better gear and they won't get better gear until they raid and warrior is a bad comparison, completely different class much more about gcd management than rage.

I think the JotW undocumented regen was meant to be based on base mana, and probably the 20% is what they're thinking. You should probably theorycraft off that. Most interestingly, does taking benediction allow a more aggressive rotation over a 5 minute fight as that will directly impact your talent choice.

Noctivagant · 09/09/08, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by Blackthought

I also think that having JotW return a set perecentage of base mana (regardless of the percentage) is a stupid idea. I am not a fan of non-scaling mechanics (other than the energy system). There should be some scaling component. I would argue that having it return a percentage of the damage caused on judgment or CS makes more sense. That would allow for scaling of rets and reduce the worry that it makes holy overpowered.

Well, first, you mention energy, and you never see scaling energy returns, its always fixed for fixed. If you think of turning our blue bar into an energy/rate/rp type bar, then % for % make sense. I think its going to end up base for base eventually. Really, its moot, it IS base for base unless they did something to change our mana from gear system.

If the much chewed on str->mana mechanic were ever to enter, then both the JotW-20 becomes scalable as well as replenishment. If they are ever toing to do that, they could consider just making mana for Paladins intrinsically come from the greater of STR or INT. Same formulas as now, just the second STR gets above int (which is any non-holy paladin) the mana reflects that gear.

Voldin · 09/09/08, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Noctivagant

Well, first, you mention energy, and you never see scaling energy returns, its always fixed for fixed.

This is not true. Rogues get energy back through Combat Potency on the Live servers, which increases in effectiveness as they upgrade their gear. Adding additional Hit/Expertise/Haste all generate additional energy that they can spend on more attack skills.

Druids don't really see the same benefit currently, although Omen of Clarity acts as an additional energy regen mechanic for the most part. This is also increased by additional hit/expertise. Druids are also currently able to powershift for additional energy returns, effectively converting mana into energy.

This is really that different from the positive feedback loop created for DPS using a rage bar. The more damage you are doing, the more fuel you have to push buttons more often. It isn't an unheard of mechanic by any means, and is largely in effect for the other melee DPS classes currently.

Khaelarys · 09/09/08, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Noctivagant

Well, first, you mention energy, and you never see scaling energy returns, its always fixed for fixed. If you think of turning our blue bar into an energy/rate/rp type bar, then % for % make sense. I think its going to end up base for base eventually. Really, its moot, it IS base for base unless they did something to change our mana from gear system.

If the much chewed on str->mana mechanic were ever to enter, then both the JotW-20 becomes scalable as well as replenishment. If they are ever toing to do that, they could consider just making mana for Paladins intrinsically come from the greater of STR or INT. Same formulas as now, just the second STR gets above int (which is any non-holy paladin) the mana reflects that gear.

At which point we're the only % for % bar that is drainable.

I don't disagree with anything in this post - I agree that % for % regen makes sense for a melee class, but I feel compelled to point out that the fact that we are without any significant passive regen, and combined with the fact that we can be mana burned into the ground in four casts (what, 5-6 seconds for a disco priest?), unless Judgement (our mana return ability) is free or very, very cheap, I'm still going to spend a lot of my time with nothing but auto attacking to show for it.

Altirias · 09/09/08, 11:20 AM

It's been discussed quite a lot in the ret thread, but I still don't get why people don't see the issue that it would be for us to have a mana bar that behaves like rage, above all in a PVP environment.

It's all about the difference between enough and infinite. Balance, in a word.

Yet, I'm not going down that road again, I feel I've already said to much and I'm going to be harassed again by some regular readers....

Anyway, Mana regeneration is a real issue, yet it would be great to read people talk about it considering every aspect of our class, that's including all our arsenal and not only our dps tools.

Nhul · 09/09/08, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by Altirias

It's been discussed quite a lot in the ret thread, but I still don't get why people don't see the issue that it would be for us to have a mana bar that behaves like rage, above all in a PVP environment.

It's all about the difference between enough and infinite. Balance, in a word.

Because nobody fears a holy paladin in small scale PvP due to their inability to stand and heal while humping a pillar. Take that holy paladin into the open field and see just how difficult it is for them to heal outside of their bubble.

Infinite mana means nothing if you cannot use it, and using it to heal is not something easily done in the middle of the fight with ANY class near you besides maybe..another paladin.

Suicidal Zebra · 09/09/08, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

Divine Plea being like Bloodrage sounds neat (lose some life for rage).

I think, nay hope, that GC didn't mean Bloodrage-like in that you trade off health for mana. I think that she meant that you gain a large chunk of mana initially and then more mana every second for X seconds thereafter.

--

I agree that Plea could stand to be on a slightly shorter cooldown (3 minutes would be gravy) and Crusader Strike still needs some utility. While I wouldn't complain over the new JotW effect being rolled into CS I'd love to see something a little more imaginative and above all offensive as a secondary effect.

Blackthought · 09/09/08, 11:33 AM

A Spellbreaker effect on CS would make a lot of people happy while not being overpowered in the arenas. It seems like a no brainer to me.

Redcape · 09/09/08, 11:43 AM

Rogues get more energy from haste, hit, and expertise.

Cats get more energy from haste, hit and expertise.

Warriors get more rage from every offensive stat available.

Enhance shamans get more mana from AP, hit, expertise and haste.

Hunters get more mana by proccing JoW more from haste, which is a low return.

Ret paladins and DK are currently the only physical dps that do not get energy/rage/runic/mana from increased stats on gear.

While the original JotW was over the top, the idea of a scaling mana return on damage is not new or automatically overpowered, it is in fact the standard for melee dps. JotW in its most recent form is enough to make retadins sustainable, and that is great, but it does create issues with holydins regen. I would prefer a damage scaling return instead that gave the same amount of mana for now to prevent that issue.

I generally shy away from random wishlists, but this is one thing I thought of that has some very nice things going for it:

Benediction: Reduce the cost of your Judgement spells by 20/40/60/80/100%.

It offers enough mana savings to be actually worth 5 talent points and fixes some severe ret issues in arena. With this talent you could not shut out a ret paladin completely with mana burn, they can always get back into the fight after a judgement. It also means that every paladin feels ok about putting a few points into ret and notices a difference. The lack of being totally boned at zero mana is something prot and holy might even find useful in pve sometimes too.

Blackthought · 09/09/08, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by Hylo

Blizzard seems to be a fan of non-scaling mechanisms what it comes to mana-regen. It's easy to see why. Once your basic dps-rotations is set up, the cost of that rotation is not going to change when you move from Naxx to Icecrown. DPS-scaling comes from offensive stats, not from "ability to spam more". I believe this all has been discussed in this thread already.

In other words, rets don't need scalable sustainability. Rets should be self-sufficient from greens to the best epics from Icecrown. If you are self-sustaining there is no need for scaling.

Only healers should have scaling mana-regeneration and they also have it, in form of regeneration stats in gear.

By healers do you mean, hunters, locks, mages, elemental shaman and boomkins? Because they all get mana return scaling with replenishment (they have int on their gear) as it returns a % of total mana. The only classes that do not are Rets and Enhancement Shaman. Why does this make sense?