Kirion

I'm probably missing something, but in current beta BoM is 550 AP and Battle Shout is 548. Both corresponding talents increase this value by 25%. So talented BoM can't be overwritten by BS, right?

42.

 

Noules

Even under ideal circumstances (where you can spam FoL + HoT on 8 different people and there's no overheal from the HoT) your maximum throughput with the FoL Glyph is only 20% better than FoL without the glyph. With haste the situation becomes worse (in that you need more targets you can get complete use out of FoL). Even if it worked with Bacon, it would still be a pretty bad glyph. If the general mechanic is kept, it would have to do either much more healing or do it in a shorter period of time to be of much use...even if did work with Bacon.

Personally, I think it should add a big HoT in return for making FoL more expensive.

 

Prinsesa

For anyone currently on the beta, I have a few questions regarding the latest build, in reference to MMO-Champion's posted changes, especially since we may be getting this patched to Live in today's maintenance:

Judgement of Light now grants attacks and spells made against the judged enemy a chance of healing the attacker. (Old - Didn't include spells)

Has the bug with JOL not having its 4 second internal cooldown fixed?

Judgement of Wisdom now unleashes the energy of a Seal spell to judge an enemy, giving each attack a chance to restore 2% of the attacker's maximum mana.

Has the bug with JOW not having its 4 second internal cooldown fixed? Also, does this change mean that spells/casters can no longer proc JOW?

To be consistent with stances, presences and aspects, paladin auras are now off of the GCD with a 1 sec cooldown

Was this announced change implemented in the latest beta build?

EDIT: Follow-up questions

According to their tooltips, Seal of the Martyr is currently dealing 25% weapon damage, while Seal of Blood is dealing 45% weapon damage. Has this been fixed?

I never really got a clear picture, but apparently Seal of Command has a 'bugged' high spell power coefficient, which is why it's currently better than SOB for single-target DPS. Has this been changed? Alternatively, can someone shed some light on exactly how high the coefficient is?

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Soralin

That would be nuts. It would mean that only Ret Paladins, Prot Paladins, and Enhancement Shamans (and possibly Hunters) would benefit from the mana regen of JoW... none of whom really need it (except perhaps hunters).

It has to be a miswording of the tooltip, surely.

 

Andrast

Actually to be strictly accurate enhance shaman will definitely appreciate more regen. But otherwise you are correct.

 

StormScion

Yea did it without any outside buffs , or even wings for 20% more dmg. I was using holy beacon + retri build premade char with blue pvp gear and blue pvp shield for healing ( version with crit ) for max spell/melee crit but nothing to realy improve SoR top dmg. 1500 crits were quite common on lvl 75+ mobs.

 

• frmorrison

Auras on Beta are off the GCD.

As of two days ago, Seal of Martyr was doing less damage than Seal of Command (on the premade), so I assume the possibly bugged (I don't know if it is intended) Seal of Command is still there.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

flyingtoastr

There's a very substantial difference between "attacks" and "melee attacks".

As of a couple minutes ago JoW still seems to proc on ranged attacks and spells as normal. They were just finally updating the tooltip to the % of mana instead of the scaling from way back when.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

Vinehorn

Thanks to Amera. This is the kind of Devil's Advocate reply I was looking for. /target Amera. /Bow. FYI: Last night, those Felmyst skeletons whooped me something fierce. I got push back like crazy!

Anyway, I really just want my main toon (pally holy end-game healer) to be more than "just a healer". It was fun to gear up in end-game raids as a healer, but it really sucked to do dailies/solo as a holy pally prior to 3.0.2. I want to find a spec that will allow me to effectively heal in end-game raids and have fun in soloing/dailies. (Note: I will be set when dual specs become active. Until then I need to fill the void). So far 53/0/18 seems to fit the bill.

You are correct in inferring that I am trying to do something non-conventional or not "cookie cutter". For the past 3.7 yrs my main has always been an end-game healer. Since my main got most of the end-game gear, I neglected my main in daily/solo "fun" pursuits b/c "holy/heal/resto" specs don't cut it. I tended to use alts (huner/feral) for daily/solo pursuits. I want this to change. I'm trying to make my "main toon" (holy pally) into a "real main toon"... not just during scheduled raids.

Summary: I want to continue be a end-game raid healer with some viability to solo/dps (outside of raids).

 

Valerys

At level 80, yes. At level 70 however, BS is 1 AP stronger than BoM, which is why the overwriting happens.

 

burghy

Unless they change the scaling you get less than 1% dmg per point in SotP. It's also safe to not take Improved Judgements.
Example of dmg with a premade char: ImageShack - Hosting :: wowscrnshot100508010506jb1.jpg

 

hiro

That pie chart really underscores the problem with Solo Holy. Our Seals and Judgements should be more than 8% and 13% of our damage respectively. One thing that would really help would be a talent in deep holy to improve our seal's return from spellpower, or add strength based on spellpower.

Holy Power seems like an appropriate place to add: "and increases Strength by X% of your spellpower."

(as this talent is already solid, 2-10% is probably appropriate for 1-5 points)

This change would help Holy geared and specced paladins by boosting our seals, judgements, melee, consecration and Shield of the Righteous, while being far out of reach of deep ret.

- I should probably add the disclaimer that even with my poor gear and practice Holy overall post 3.0 has been amazingly improved over 2.X, when not compared to other specs/classes, both in groups and solo.

 

◊ Cathela

I think an SP->str conversion would work fine as far as the mechanics go, but at that point you'd have four different stat conversion talents for the class, and what's even weirder is that two of them would go in exactly the opposite direction.

Which goes back to the idea that Antmaton and I were pimping a couple months ago of having a baseline AP->SP or str->SP conversion for the entire class, and then designing paladin healing gear with a mix of SP and strength. That'd give Holy better dps and also result in a cleaner design.

----

In other news, the SotR animation is better but still unfinished (or at least I hope it is). You actually do the shield slam animation when you use it, which is new (and good), but you still get that glowy shield-shooting-a-beam effect right in front of your character -- the "holy" effect is attached to the character and not the shield, which looks really weird. I would assume (and hope) that they're planning to attach the holy effect to the shield so that it moves with it during the slam animation.

Also, still no sound effect.

And Rank 2 of SotR is in the game, and takes you from 300 base damage up to a whopping 400 base damage. Better than nothing, I guess.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

GSH

The problem with this is that Blizzard wants "roles" to share itemization, not classes. Especially for non-armor pieces like rings, necks, weapons, etc. Holy shares those slots with Resto/Ele shaman, and the other casters (non-Spirit pieces, anyways).

 

Antmanton

Well, the original idea was to redefine roles slightly such that all paladins and shaman would benefit from, and thus share, both AP and SP (as well as intellect, the forgotten bastard child stat of half those possible specs), rather than trying to shoehorn Ret and Prot to share with warriors and DKs and necessitating all these wonky stat conversion talents being continously shuffled around to keep them out of reach of each other. But that ship appears to have already sailed, so no use rehashing it all again.

As far as the current discussion, though, I find it far more likely Blizzard will buff Holy DPS by trying to prop up JotP, probably with some kind of Sanctity Aura-esque percentage modifier to Holy damage dealt, since that's our only functional source of damage. It's a band-aid fix, and it still doesn't change the flaw in that over 40% of our offense comes from one ability, but the source of that problem is so deeply buried in paladin mechanics and general itemization that they'd have to completely revisit most of the work done so far on paladins as a whole to fix it properly.

 

ZulazeeluIcecrown

Which is also why my idea wouldn't have flown: put an SP->Str talent in the Ret tree, leave all the mechanics of spells scaling only with Spellpower, and have everyone wear what is now "Holy Paladin only" gear. Unfortunately, the desire to have Prot wear identical gear to Prot Warriors and Ret wear identical gear to Arms shoots this idea dead.

 

◊ Cathela

So holy paladins wear normal healing rings/necks/cloaks/weapons/etc. Fine. We're not talking about making Holy paladins into front-line dps, we're talking about giving them enough dps to be useful in an off-dps role in raids, be a decent threat in BGs, and be able to solo effectively. The point is that there are eight gear slots where a holy paladin will be wearing gear that is unique to holy paladins. If holy paladins need more dps, there's no reason not to use those eight slots as part of the solution.'

EDIT: And yeah, what Antmaton said, it's beside the point now.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

midnightwinter

I'm very curious to see what will become of the deep wound effect on RV. Do these changes further encourage us to say bye-bye to stacking any kind of meaningful crit and piling on the AP? Should I be looking to have -just- enough crit now to keep Vengeance up?
We can only assume the dot effect won't stack, so does this mean we'll effectively be seeing a crit, a tick of the dot, another crit, the tick of the new dot, etc? With a variety of instants at our disposal now, it annoys me that we've had our specials critical damage bonus so harshly cut down. I understand the pvp implications of our burst potential at 70 but as someone who couldn't give a damn about pvp, it bothers me. We've lost a 45% crit modifier and in exchange we've been given a small base damage increase and an extremely questionable bandaid dot.
Impale and deep wounds are tier 3 arms, and we're spending 5 pts to get a deep wounds knockoff in tier 10.
Unhappy bunny.

 

Prinsesa

Assuming the new Righteous Vengeance is anything like Deep Wounds in its stacking functionality, it may actually be a sizable sustained DPS increased for us.

To clarify, if a Warrior crits a second time during Deep Wounds' duration, the 'unticked' damage is carried over and averaged out through the new ticks, such that you never really lose damage.

This new stacking mechanic makes Deep Wounds so powerful that:
* Those 15 points in Arms are more powerful than going for Titan's Grip
* It makes Axe Specialization significantly more powerful than Sword or Mace, because of the increased crit leading to more procs
* It encourages Warriors to dual-wield slow/fast weapons, since Deep Wounds always uses the MH's damage, even if it was the OH that crit

A casual browse through the Warrior's WOTLK thread reveals Deep Wounds counting for as much as 20% of a Warrior's damage and ticks reaching as high as 5,000 damage.

Of course, a lot of this hinges on just which of our ability crits will trigger the RV and if the RV even works similarly to Deep Wounds, but I'm pretty confident that they'll leverage on mechanics that are already there.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Anedris

I expect the DoT to stack. The priest heal-when-crit proc was I believe changed to "roll" and I *think* deep wounds now rolls as well (I'm not sure of that - I haven't been paying attention to the warrior threads - so someone confirm if you can). I expect the DoT-effect to have no effect at all on our sustained DPS (well actually I don't have quite that much confidence - Blizz will probably not get their numbers balanced perfectly when they try to compensate for the lowered damage of DS - but I expect it'll be close enough), it will simply reduce our burst damage.

Edit: What Prinsesa said.

 

GSH

Raid boss armor is being increased by 10%: WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Upcoming boss armor change

Ret damage goes down, but Prot paladins might gain threat respective to the other tanks.

 

◊ Cathela

Well, Deep Wounds is pretty clearly overpowered right now.

But yeah, I think it's almost certain that the Ret DoT effect will roll somehow. The whole point of these crit-enhancement talents is to give you a reason to stack crit beyond the trivial amount necessary to keep Vengeance up. If the damage doesn't roll, then the DoT just becomes a flat X additional dps no matter what your crit rate is, as long as you're critting often enough that it doesn't fall off. A rolling mechanic means that extra crits add more damage, which is what the devs want from the talent.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Prinsesa

As far as Deep Wounds being 'overpowered', I think that has more to do with the fact that OH crits will still cause MH Deep Wounds damage.

This leads to 'gaming' the talent by going 51 points into Arms but avoiding all the two-hander talents on Live, or speccing 20/51/0 but wielding a 3.80 MH plus a 1.30 Dagger in the beta.

I don't think there's any potential for that kind of shenanigans with Paladin mechanics, so I fully expect the rolling mechanic to be kept intact.

Getting back on-topic: Between Seal procs, Consecration (when possible) and Hammer of Wrath, just how much of our damage is still Holy damage? A 10% armor increase might still be a damage increase relative to other physical classes depending on how much of our armor-ignore remains.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Foxconfessor

I'm clocking around 40% physical in my week's experience using FCFS and the judgement/consecration glyph, and of course the 45% JoB. Swing clocks in at about a solid 25% of dps, judgement and seal damage combined is about double the amount of swing damage, and divine storm is a drop in the ocean on a single target fight. Crusader strike is 10% or less, with consecration a few percent behind.

 

kostyash

i read in 3.03 patch notes that shealth of light will now work correct with judjements of comand ,blood, martyr.

What was not correct before ?

And how will it effect our dps?