• Arikah

Yeah, that aligns almost exactly with tonight's brut kills and what i saw; 41% physical damage, 41% judgement and seal damage, consecration/how/exorcism make up the rest. You can have a look here: Wow Web Stats

So the raid boss armor drop will give us what, around a 4% damage increase? And if the new RV dot does act like deep wounds, with the new AoW that's about another 5% damage increase (there was math and spreadsheets done in either this thread or cromfel's). The other physical dps classes are going to get the full benefit from it, so we should be just in line or slightly behind... what i'm confused about is why they see it necessary to push physical dps even higher, when it's become quite apparent that casters are falling behind by a fairly large amount (browse the night's wws to see where casters score on every fight)

The 3.0.3 sheath change should just give out the correct co-effs from sheath's spellpower, which should bring martyr out of being bugged and might tone down jocomm... not sure though.

 

Hidden

Raid boss armor drop? It's being increased by 10%, not reduced. Or have I missed something?

 

• Arikah

Oh dear, well then i'm an idiot and shouldn't read forums at 3 am :s

Just reverse what I said then, we should only see a ~4% damage loss.

 

• Avitus

One more minor element to the equation which I don't think has been mentioned before:

As an AoE instant holy weapon attack on 4 mobs Divine Storm was a fairly powerful tanking move when tanking as Ret on beta, Rets replacement for Hammer of the Righteous if you will. With this change it's going to be much less useful for that purpose (though not completely useless as an aggro frontload opener on multiple mobs).

I'm not too fussed about the coming multiplier changes (assuming our PvE DPS stays the same), though I'm not sure making Divine Storm physical was that needed on top of those changes. The name, the feel of the class and the fact that it's a 51 pointer all work against it being a physical attack, as someone mentioned it's somewhat offputting that our 51 pointer is now equivalent to what warriors get as baseline (probably even worse considering Whirlwind specifically can be improved further).

This is yet another example of Blizzard noticing something is wrong, then instead of changing one thing (which would be acceptable), they change multiple things across the board (which as a sum is too much). Considering there has been no blue "patch notes" like post yet about all these changes (just a blue post answer), I hope that only some of this goes in, but not all.

 

Hidden

However that specific change helps Paladins scale with Armor Penetration gear a bit more, something I wouldn't call bad.

By the way, on the Beta server I'm currently getting following results (sorry if it's nothing new):
Sheath: works correctly for all abilities I tested now
SoB: does exact tooltip damage, no spellpower coefficient
SoC: does more than tooltip damage, seems to have a ~17% spellpower coefficient
JoB: manually adding all damage multipliers (1.1*1.03*1.03*1.06 for my build/glyph setup), tooltip damage is correct now (and includes Sheath spellpower)
JoC: manually adding all damage multipliers (1.1*1.03*1.03*1.06 for my build/glyph setup), tooltip damage is correct now (and includes Sheath spellpower)

SoB vs SoC:
SoB has higher Judgement damage (17-18% for premade gear) while SoC has probably higher Seal damage due to Spellpower scaling (1 SoC proc does ~17-18% more damage than 2 SoB procs for premade gear).

Edit #2: JoW/JoL can still chainproc (no CD).

 

• Avitus

Please refrain from quoting a whole post and summing it up in one response Pick out the part you want to respond to specifically.

Anyway, that's a really confused way to look at things. A little bit of improved scaling with a stat that is still going to remain fairly weak despite this change is not comparable to the actual loss we're taking (in functionality as well as feel of the class). As a matter of fact, I wouldn't call it "improved scaling" as much as it is "added dependency" on an additional stat that wasn't needed for DS to perform before.

If they changed your traditional elemental Shaman shocks to physical armor-mitigated attacks, would you see that as a "buff in scaling"? Think about it.


What 3.0.3 Sheath change? Can you elaborate/point to source? I went over the patch notes and there's nothing in there about a sheath change.

 

Hidden

I didn't want to sum up anything, it simply was no reply to a specific sentence but to the whole post.

While I agree that Armor Penetration still is quite bad, I suspect you won't be able to avoid it completely so increasing its value always helps.

Edit:
I edited in my test results from current Beta realms above, please tell me if you find anything that's changed from the behavior before. I heard SoC was bugged but didn't really play on Beta the patch before.

 

• Arikah

As usual the 'official' patch notes are far from complete. Pulled from MMO-champ:

 

Prinsesa

I haven't seen this mentioned yet, but it seems Seal/Judgement of Light is bugged.

To be precise: SOL appears to have a 15% AP + 15% SP coefficient and does not benefit from Sheath, while JOL appears to have a 10% AP + 10% SP coefficient and also does not benefit from Sheath.

My level 42 Paladin has 661 AP and 0 SP (no gear, no Sheath).
Her SOL tooltip reports an expected 185 HP proc, which matches Wowhead-advertised 28% coefficient.
Her JOL tooltip reports an expected 119 HP proc, which matches Wowhead-advertised 18% coefficient.

Actual SOL proc size from beating on mobs is 99 HP, which works out to a 15% coefficient.
Actual JOL proc size from beating on mobs is 66 HP, which works out to a 10% coefficient.

I lowered her gear to 567 AP
Actual SOL proc size is 85 HP, which is still on-target for 15%
Actual JOL proc size is 57 HP, which is still on-target for 10%

-----

Going back to my level 70 Paladin, currently specced for Ret:
She has 2267 AP and 680 SP (completely from Sheath)
Her SOL tooltip reports an expected 825 HP proc, which matches Wowhead-advertised 28% AP + 28% SP coefficient.
Her JOL tooltip reports an expected 530 HP proc, which matches Wowhead-advertised 18% AP + 18% SP coefficient.

Actual SOL proc size from beating on a training dummy is 340 HP, which works out to a 15% AP only coefficient.
Actual JOL proc size from beating on a training dummy is 227 HP, which works out to a 10% AP only coefficient.

-----

I went and put on her healing gear:
She has 580 AP and 1096 SP (922 SP from gear, 174 SP from Sheath)

Her SOL tooltip reports an expected 469 HP proc, which matches Wowhead-advertised 28% AP + 28% SP coefficient.
Her JOL tooltip reports an expected 302 HP proc, which matches Wowhead-advertised 18% AP + 18% SP coefficient.

Actual SOL proc size from beating on a training dummy is 216 HP.

If SOL only scaled with AP, this would suggest a 37% coefficient, which does not match previous tests.
If SOL scaled with 15% AP + 15% total SP (1096), the expected proc would be 251 HP, which is significantly higher than the actual.
If SOL scaled with 15% AP + 15% gear-only SP (922), the expected proc would be 225 HP, which is much closer to the actual

Actual JOL proc size from beating on a training dummy is 144 HP.

If JOL only scaled with AP, this would suggest a 25% coefficient, which does not match previous tests.
If JOL scaled with 10% AP + 10% total SP (1096), the expected proc would be 167 HP, which is significantly higher than the actual.
If JOL scaled with 10% AP + 10% gear-only SP (922), the expected proc would be 150 HP, which is much closer to the actual.

-----

The last tests results were muddied somewhat by Sheath, so I'll try posting some results later on as Prot spec to check the interaction with Touched by the Light. Regardless, even the Sheath-less coefficient does not match both the OP's previously-known and tooltip-advertised values

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Hylo

Maybe, but hes right though. Even if you want to take +str, +AP, +agi and +crit gear, the WotLK items I've seen push you inevitably to take either haste or armor penetration. Haste affects about 1/3 or your damage in beta so... armor penetration might actually be the lesser bad to choose.

 

Hidden

Even in Sunwell you need to get either haste or armor penetration, I don't know any Sunwell piece without one of those stats. Anyway I'd really like if Blizzard made Paladins scale better with at least one of those two stats.

 

Kigale

I understand the desire to scale better but this line of discussion seems weird to me. Starting at x and scaling to x+y is good. Starting at x and getting nerfed to x-z and then scaling a bit better with gear to get to x-z+y is a nerf and is exactly what happened. Saying it is an increase in scaling is correct, but it isn't a buff. Making armor penetration a more attractive stat in this way is not anything to be positive about.

Haste scales some of our attacks. Take haste if you are stuck with haste or armor pen and want to scale and leave DS holy. Haste scaling is pretty high as it is compared to other classes.

 

Exemplar

Are we overstating the armor change a bit or did I mis-read things? They're increasing boss armor by 10%. Flat armor bonus, not increasing their reduction from melee attacks by 10%.

A) It's only bosses. Divine Storm for AOE tanking is still fairly effective, since that should be for non-boss fights or adds.
B) 10% armor increase on bosses is not a loss of 10% physical damage.

As I don't know L80 bosses' (L83) armor ratings, let's use Kil'jaden as an example. According to the armor thread he has 6200 armor - this is ~34% mitigation. +10% is 6820, which is ~36% mitigation. For every reasonable* number range I try increasing armor by 10% works out to about a 2 to 2.5% mitigation increase - only on physical damage.

So if you figure we're doing 65% of full white damage (35% reduction) and change this to 63% (37% reduction), it's a loss of about 3% on that white damage. 3% of 40% is about a 1% overall DPS loss. Noticable, but I don't think it's raising ArmPen's value enough to be something worth seeking.

* - note: +10% to very low armor ratings gains less than 2% more reduction.

 

• frmorrison

Also note the 10% armor buff for bosses is likely part of the tuning of dps classes.

The dev intentions are to make it so Hunters, Mages, and Warlocks are a better dps than hybrids (but not too much), and currently Hunters are out of line.

As seen above 2-3% damage lose isn't much, especially with Ret Aura soon giving 1% more damage and a potential RV buff.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

◊ Cathela

But x isn't really on the table. Ret paladins had x, and the developers didn't like it.

What people are saying is that since x isn't an option, at least x-y+z is better than x-y.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

• Avitus

DS for tanking losing effectiveness is really just about the damage not being classified as "holy" anymore and therefore not gaining the holy threat multiplier from righteous fury. Armor has little to do with it (only damage wise). I think there are multiple discussions here crossing wires.

Is this your assumption or is this based on actual blue confirmation? If it's the prior, lets really try to make clear distinctions between assumptions and facts please, if it's the latter: Rogues aren't included? Link?

 

Tilted

You are absolutely right that 10% armor increase does not equate to 10% less physical damage. However, due to how debuffs and armor penetration work, it's a lot bigger change than what you have posted here.

Let's take your KJ example of going from 6200 armor up to 6820. Sunder drops these numbers by 2600, and CoR by another 610. So if your guild uses these debuffs his armor is actually going from 2990 up to 3610, which is a ~21% increase.

Rogues, warriors, and hunters get hardest by this change. I imagine ret's relative position to other melee classes will actually go up with this change, especially with the addition of the Righteous Vengeance DoT.

And on the topic of Righteous Vengeance, please stop complaining that it's a "tier 10 knockoff of a warrior tier 3 talent." They have 2 DPS trees that need the talent to compete. We just have ret. It really doesn't matter where in the tree it is, as you'll get it at 80 one way or another. The only thing it affects is ret leveling pre-60, which probably isn't much of a concern for any of us.

EDIT: Maybe KJ isn't the best boss to look at for this change. They're only changing level 80 raid bosses.

 

Dekkar

I'm not sure how I feel about the Avenger's Shield bounce getting reduced to 10 yards from 15. As far as I see it, it's a mixed bag. On one hand, it makes it more annoying to grab mobs that are slightly too far apart; however, on the other hand it makes it much much safer to pull groups that are in proximity to each other without pulling two simultaneous groups. For some of us, this may change our decision on whether or not we Glyph our holy frisbee or not. I had been planning on glyphing it solely for the purpose of safety when pulling (with added damage to bosses as a small bonus). Now, I'm no longer sure I want to do that because it's now safer to use.

 

• frmorrison

Rogues should be there, my mistake.

The post was buried in a GC thread yesterday, something like the 3rd reply, saying pure dps will do more dps than hybrids. He was answering a question if guilds would take 5 Paladins and 5 Druids to raids. GC made a lot of posts yesterday, so it may be tough to find again.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Exemplar

Good point, I forgot to factor armor debuffs. This increases loss to physical damage from ~3% to ~4%.

Using Arikah's # of 41% physical damage, 4% of 41% is ~1.6% total loss. Still noticable, but not crippling.

Just trying to point out 10% armor change does not nerf us "TO THE GROUND, BABY!" The impression I received from multiple posts was an overall 10% loss and I wanted to correct this for the casual reader and those who don't crunch the numbers themselves.

This loss negatively impacts haste (more autoattacks which with less damage due to higher armor) and positively impacts ArmPen. But both are still "bad stats" to hunt for on gear.

This will definitely impact hunters, rogues, and warriors far more. However this is the paladin thread so I'm just running numbers for how it would affect us.

If Righteous Vengeance DoT winds up not being physical, then this will alter the ratio of physical/holy further away from physical, producing less of an overall reduction.

Note: Again, we don't have armor numbers for 80 raid bosses. So I pulled KJ out of the air as an example. With both armor and the armor-debuffing scaling, I would expect the end numbers at 80 to be quite similar - 1-2% total change.

 

◊ Cathela

What was the bounce range in TBC? It feels longer now, but that's just a gut feeling. I observed earlier that HotR seemed to have the same bounce range as AS, but right now it clearly doesn't, and I don't know if there was a range change or if I just didn't look carefully enough.

In TBC I can't think of a case where my shield bounced to another group that I didn't want to pick up, except when I was trying to be a badass and pull patrols that were walking towards another group. (i.e., the only times when I got an extra group were when I was clearly doing something stupid.)

Here's something that someone can try: At the beginning of Mechanar you have two groups of 3 elves each in front of you, with a robot between them and a little bit further back. You're supposed to be able to pull all 3 of those groups separately (indeed, you had to if you were doing heroic Mechanar in blues). If the shield can bounce from one of the elf groups to the robot, that's definitely too much bounce. If it can't jump between those groups, then I don't think there's any danger of it group-hopping anywhere (so long as you're reasonably careful).


[e] On a totally separate topic, does anyone know how SoR is affected by haste? e.g., if you start with no haste and then get a WF totem for 16% melee haste, does your SoR dps go up by 16%?

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Redcape

Last I checked SoR was working properly with haste. If it was doing 200 per hit before haste, it was doing 200 per hit with a lot of haste. The tooltip was wrong though, when you put haste on it was lowering the damage, though the actual damage done was correct. I don't have beta access though so I don't have the latest information.

 

Bismar

So the Warlock Curse of Elements says all magic: Curse of the Elements - Spell - World of Warcraft

But the Moonkin Earth and Moon says all magic but Holy: Earth and Moon - Spell - World of Warcraft

Does that mean we should be pushing for Warlocks using COE in the raid?

 

• frmorrison

It matters what you have in your raid comp, but normally with a Balance Druid or Unholy DK means the Warlock will use a different curse.

The spell database says Apply Aura: Mod Dmg % Taken (All) 13, so that means the tooltip is incorrect, since it will affects magic damage.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Iluminati

That's the right way to look at this right now I think. Ghostcrawler had said already that Ret paladin damage was much too high and that some nerf/changes were definitely coming. The ultimate goal is for pure dps to do more dps than hybrid dps at 80. So unless there you are saying that these changes will put Ret Paladins below the shamans, priests, and druids out there, it's better to accept them and start doing the new theorycraft around these changes.