◊ Cathela

They don't actually have to make the two values equal just because it's the same rating now. For example, 48 hit rating could give you +4% spell hit and +3% melee hit.

Doesn't seem all that likely, but it's possible.

Interesting. Can you judge against someone else's stack, or only your own?

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

flyingtoastr

Of course. That's what I meant (sheathbot spec) but I wasn't clear.

Some people's minds are like cement: all mixed up and permanently set.

 

Roywyn

All the caster 1H weapons in WotLK actually have increasing melee DPS.
They are not locked a 41.4 DPS like in vanilla/BC, they only lose like half their scaling or something.

Not sure if that makes the caster weapons better again, or if it will still be a wash.

Try looking around with Weapons - Items - World of Warcraft
There aren't many items yet, sadly.

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

Siddown

Nice attitude there Toaster. It's not whining, I looked at the video multiple times and the two hit at the same time or at the very least it was inconclusive. You somehow used the same video with horrible resolution to somehow come to a concrete conclusion on a complete change of the mechanics of the spell all the while completely ignoring the person just a few posts early who is in beta who says that it delays the swing timer.

I find that scrolling combat text can be a bit iffy, especially when two attacks land at the same time. All I'm saying is that I don't think that is nearly enough "evidence" that our swing timer won't be clipped.

Just not resetting the swing timer is a huge buff though. Weaving in a HoW every once in a while won't be a big deal.

 

◊ Cathela

Hmmm.

Looking at melee and caster weapons between ilevels 138 and 158 (greens):

• Melee weapon dps increases by 9.3 over 20 ilevels
• Caster weapon dps increases by 5.0 over 20 ilevels (roughly -- a few small variations in ilevel 138 weapons)
• Caster weapon spellpower increases by roughly 40 over 20 ilevels (also approximate)

So caster weapon dps increases at a little bit more than half the rate of melee weapon dps. If that keeps up, it's going to improve the HotR damage for the caster weapons.

It'll be interesting to see the level 80 weapons and the threat modifier for HotR.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Raggsokk

Now that we got Spell Power, more classes will probably need the same "caster" weapons. So it's logical that protection paladins will use "warrior weapons" in WotlK.

 

Nodrak

This needs more testing to be conclusive. I have seen various instances on live where only 1 stack was generated between multiple paladins. WoWWiki points in this direction too, but take WoWwiki as what you will.

I am not discrediting your SS, but I believe the instances of multiple stacks of Veng are created when 2 paladins happen to proc it at roughly the same time. The so called 'double polymorph' effect, where the server does 2 mutually exclusive calculations at the same time. (Either latency issues, or a lack of proper timecoding outside of server calculation cycles) I have seen first-hand multiple stacks of Veng up on a single target, but it was the exception not the norm.

Its a shame your Combat Log is covered by Omen spam.

Further thoughts would be good.

 

Jessie

I tried it a bunch of different ways, but I never once got it to only give one stack. I've also done previous testing on this in the past with other holy paladins in during a raid, and we all received separate stacks. In this particular case, I was playing both characters, so I had a decent amount of control over the test.

When we look at you we don't even see the testicles on your chin. We see the testicles in your heart.

 

Nodrak

Interesting... Perhaps it has changed since I last used it, which is well over 4 months now

 

• Chicken

I'd personally hope it'll turn out "normal" weapons are superior. The spell power weapon table is already going to quite congested with class desirability, though on the other hand with the change to spell power your tanking caster weapon could easily be the same as your healing weapon. While the desirability of melee weapons itemized with tanking is smaller; though it wouldn't be completely exclusive to a single spec of a single class like spell power weapons itemized for tanking.

The implementation of spell power weapons is still a mess though, there's always going to be cases where a spell power weapon is not usably by everyone that can have a use for it because Paladins can't use daggers. Spell power maces shut out Warlocks and Mages, while spell power swords shut out Druids, Shamans and Priests. Though it's less of a problem if Prot Paladins would want to use normal tanking weapons for the most part; in this case spell power maces can be itemized with additional stats most suited towards healing, while spell power daggers can be made with additional stats most suited towards dealing damage.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

• Vinsent

Well lets try to look at the breakdown.

A slow 1h melee weapon drops -
Wanted by:
Fury Warriors
Prot Warriors
Rogues (all specs) x3
DKs
Enhance Shaman
Hunters (depending on stats) x3

so total of between 8-10 specs competing for the weapon Dependant on stats

A caster 1h drops
Priest (all specs) x3
Shaman (Ele/Resto) x2
Holy Paladins
Resto Druids
Mages (all specs) x3
Locks (all specs) x3

so a totally 10-13 specs competing for the weapon Dependant on stats.

So looking at it this way it makes sense to have us fit into the melee pool since it is smaller.

Simpler you can look at just classes:

Melee:
Warrior
DK
Rogue
Hunter

Caster:
Druid
Priest
Warlock
Mage

Leaving Shaman and Paladins as the outliers, Shaman want melee in one spec, and caster in two specs.

So logic would say to keep things balanced Paladins should "want" melee in two specs and caster in one spec.

However I cut it, from a "gear consolidation" standpoint it would appear that they should want prot paladins wielding melee weapons.

I like using caster weapons, I like the feel of it, but I can see the logic of moving us over to melee weapons.

 

Siddown

Jessie, can you clear up the debate about whether HoW clips the Swing Timer or not? It obviously doesn't reset your timer anymore which is fantastic, not clipping our swing would be icing on the cake.

If you can't, that's understandable, I'm sure you have a catelogue of requests.

 

JettJaguar

You fail to take into account the different kinds of weapons and what classes can use them. Caster swords would be limited to Mages, Locks and Pallies; Daggers to Priest, Mage, Lock, Shammy; etc. You also don't account for the fact that some casters are just going to want staves.

Additionally, taking the raw number of specs who *can* equip an item isn't accurate either. For example, Why would a Sub spec rogue be in your raid? or Why would an Assasination spec rogue want a sword or mace? or Why would a DK want a 1h weapon at all?

Not all classes are created equal and I don't really think that Blizzard really tries to itemize based on how many classes or total specs can use it. Players will want the best item reguardless of intent (ex. the leather melee dps craftable gloves from sunwell used by rogues, warriors, hunters, enh. shammies, and ret pallies in my guild. Performance not intent should dictate.

 

Smurrf

Dual-wielding? Or did they lose that ability, and I just haven't seen it yet?

 

Selenia

They should still have it, but generally speaking it looks like most of their abilities synergize better with a 2h anyway.

 

Lunkhedd

It looks like the intent of the talent is to counter mana starvation due to high avoidance, kind of like the new warrior "Stalwart Protector" talent. Back-of-the-envelope calculations suggest it'll scale up pretty rapidly (I'm estimating about a 24% discount on Consecration with 1 incoming attack per second at 40% dodge+parry), so it could be useful even in non-AoE situations. More important if there's no int at all on tank gear, of course.

Speaking of tank gear, I'm wondering if it'll even be possible to reach 100% avoid-or-block in WotLK, at least in the first few tiers. If block rating is relatively rare due to the gear homogenization push, it could be quite a challenge. I'm not sure what the effects might be other than making Redoubt more useful, assuming that crushing blows are indeed gone.

 

GSH

Okay, I made a mistake on the SoV proc earlier. The proc depends on weapon speed.

SoV proc: Damage = 1.2% * WS * SP

Now for the part that blew my mind.

The value of the JoW and JoL procs depends on your current stats, not the stats at the time of Judgement!

I started a fight with a single JoW. I gained 148 mana per proc. Midway through, I cast Blessing of Might on myself, increasing AP by 220. Immediately, my JoW procs jumped to 167. I did not re-judge at any point during the fight.

Similar effects happen with JoL, clicking off Might, and swapping to a spell damage weapon mid-fight.

I don't know if this is special because it's my own Judgement, or if you'd see similar effects if a different paladin suddenly got Battleshout in the middle of a fight. I'm not sure if it happens because I am refreshing my own Judgements, or how it interacts with Crusader Strike. I also have no idea what would happen if the paladin died.

 

Stardusty

I've noticed something strange about mana costs on the Talent Calculator from the official site

Repentance: 395 Mana
Crusader Strike: 100 Mana
Divine Storm: 181 Mana
Hammer of the Righteous: 263 Mana

As opposed to Wowhead's information of

Repentance: 9% Base mana
Crusader Strike: 8% Base mana
Divine Storm: 12% Base mana
Hammer of the Righteous: 6% Base mana

What gives?

 

Spiry

I read somewhere (however accurate, though I do believe it to have been on these boards) that the official site's calculators aren't accurate to the current beta build and will most likely lag behind a fair bit.

I guess the easiest way to see what "gives" is for one of the beta testers to give us the numbers of their abilities.

 

Lunkhedd

It occurred to me that there's a Protection version of a Sheath of Light build, something like 5/42/24. Might be sensible for a paladin who's mainly an AoE tank and offtank in a raid without a Ret paladin. Could probably heal pretty well in tank gear, too, especially if having high strength on tank gear remains the trend.

 

GSH

Unleashing Seal data (ie, the damage caused by casting a Judgement):

uSoR: Damage = 45% * AP + 73% * SP

uSoL/W/J: Damage = 36% * AP + 58% * SP

Unleashing Seal of Light, Wisdom or Justice does 80% of the damage from unleashing Seal of Righteousness.

uSoV (0 debuffs) = 36% * AP + 58% * SP

uSoV (5 debuffs) = 54% * AP + 87% * SP

Unleashing Seal of Vengeance on a full stack does 20% more damage than unleashing Seal of Righteousness.

 

Prinsesa

More great investigation from GSH. If I could make a request, could you look into the coefficient of Judgement of Command?

I've been trying to recreate the scenario for the screenshotted 18k JoC crit, but my best estimates only go up to half of that, assuming (30% weapon damage + 43% SP).

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Redcape

Does anyone else see SoR doing an absolutely obscene amount of damage for a retadin?

With SoR doing almost 25% of AP every 3 seconds (given you have Sheath) your seal should be hitting for something like 1400 on every swing with raid buffs and talents. I assumed 4k AP, 5% misery, 15% from Vengeance, 2% from aura, 6% from 2h spec on a 3.5 speed weapon.
This is assuming Bellator's figures of 15% AP and 30% SP per 3 seconds is right.

That is far higher than Blood or Command is going to be hitting for (given that it always procs and never misses), and the judgement will be delivering 3300 damage or so baseline, so you should easily be able to hit 14k crits with Art of War up without any other procs/abilities. Unless I have misinterpreted someone's numbers, SoR could easily be the default seal to use. This calculation was using the same numbers I used for the seal damage above, but obviously ignored 2h spec.

I didn't account for AW, trinkets, or any other such things yet so we could see some much, much bigger numbers if people went out of their way to test them. I would love to see some tests to validate this.

From the numbers everyone else has been posting it seems like Judge Command gets much bigger crits because of the doubling on stun, but SoR seems like the highest sustained damage of any of the seals with the highest non stunned judgement. This would be a bloody strange turn for them to make both the talented and the high level trained seals inferior to the basic seal you get at level 1, but no more strange than the faction split of the seals was in TBC.

 

Rasputin

But I don't want to work Seals of the Pure into my spec!

IT would be very very odd for this to happen, but as you said, not without precedent. However it's still early in the beta, and i'm guessing that they will tweak the numbers to make SoB/SoM(or possibly Command, though it seems more and more like a pvp seal exclusively) the seal of choice for retadins. But as you mentioned with the faction split, stranger things have happened.

 

GSH

My numbers for Judgement of Command and Judgement of Blood are messed up. Also, my results are way higher than 30% weapon + 43% SP.

I'll start with Seals:

SoC: Damage = 70% * Weapon + 20% * SP

SoB: Damage = 35% * Weapon

JoC and JoB seem to be way higher than they should be. With weapon damage ~216 and no spell power, I'm doing normal JoCs and JoBs of 607 to 615. So unless JoC/B is intended to do 3x weapon damage, I think there's something wrong.