Yet they can go on doing their rotation forever. Thats the part that really matters here. Forever >> 5 minutes

I don't understand why they screw melee hybrids so bad. Any buff requested in pvp is met with "you can heal" and healing is then made almost impossible due to lack of mana.

The biggest thing I can see is lowering the mana cost of our offensive abilities across the board by 50% - this would keep JotW where it was in terms of an offensive cycle, while making it a little bit harder for us to heal, while lowering holy's use for the talent.

Boom.

(I wish.)

Lowering mana cost would not help us in pvp. One priest, warlock or hunter can destroy us just by beeing there ... thanks to war gear at level 80.

Then you tread into DK territory, which for most has too many moves and not enough GCD's to use it in. Right now its Rune move Rune move Rune move RP dump repeat. But even then there are just times you have to wait for those 10 second runes to come back up before something can happen again. Even then you would decide whether to dump that RP into Deathcoils or wait for the next rune to use something stronger.

Obivously a good rogue will spend CP rupturing, SnD, envenom, etc. But its not being done after every second. Even with Relentless Strikes, there will be times you hit 0 energy. I can say that at least with my mute rogue.

Warriors and rogues play by not letting their resources touch either edge. To little and they risk missing a beat in their cycle. Too much and that's just dead time. As it stands a Ret paladin is a never ending guitar riff. You're hitting each note in quick succession, juggling cooldowns. Like a shadow priest. But casters eventually stop to evocate, or us shadow fiend, or switch to viper. Shamans have SR for that same reason, while Ret pally here just has to pluck at the same 4 notes indefinitely.

But then is this a reason for you to use Divine Plea? Or do you just hold back and judge your mana back up before going down again? The idea is no class is doing something all the time (Maybe except a blood DK, but that's new). There will be rests between each measure. What if you didn't need to be doing something each GCD to maintain competitive dps? What if you should squeeze in something different every 20 seconds or something to even things out in the longer run?

Also typing this I started thinking of Johnny and the Devil.

Eh counterclass/what else are they going to do? Somehow a cheaper cleanse should be on the table.

Why should we need to stop to use divine plea or anything else if it means dropping our DPS behind everyone else? Mage damage is fine despite the fact that the evocate. Your last question seems to indicate that you understand this...if we did competitive DPS while having to break our rotation there wouldn't' be a problem. But the fact is that we do, which is the entire issue.

I'm going to assume you mean blessing of wisdom, since seal of wisdom would tank DPS. But even then, why should our rotation only be sustainable if we have wisdom? That just makes buffs more annoying in a raid, because if you have two paladins you'd have to be with a warrior to get battleshout (assuming you get Wis and Kings as blessings).

I meant blessing of wisdom yeah, seal of wisdom should be used like aspect of the viper, basically cripples your dps to fix your mana quickly. Every mana using class with the possible exception of enh shamans takes blessing of wisdom as their second blessing, and I think even enh prefer having BoW + BS over BoM + nothing.

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I don't think hunters will want wisdom anymore either, unless it happens to be floating around free in the raid. So the other two physical DPS classes who benefit from might do not need blessing of wisdom, while all the casters who don't benefit from might do. I don't see why it would be unreasonable for Ret to be in the former group.

I would imagine hunters would want it, since AoTV is a huge dps loss, so they want to use it as little as possible, but I haven't done the necessary theorycraft to confirm this.

Well the idea is upping overall damage is easy, like readjusting the judgement coefficients. Or double AoW. Just the theory behind it all has to be sound to support it.

I just also figured something else, Warriors and Rogues are mechanically restricted from spamming their moves to achieve maximum dps, as in waiting becomes part of their cycle. Here rets are just one key after another. Without the JotW change, it means not holding back. This just means to spice up gameplay. Now how its all going to work out is another thing.

we got so many nerfs in last beta patch that even dont discuss all of them and focus on the most hurting one like

judjement of the wise nerf.

But i think nerf to our seal and judjement damage is also huge and maybe bigger then previous divine storm nerf.

They increased the base damage of the abilities by a fair bit though - 10% increase in damage is a lot more than 20% increase in crit.

There's a difference between 'should' and 'is'.

Seals cost a massive 16% of base mana to switch to and from, compared to a mana-free (and now GCD-free) Aspect switching for Hunters.

While making Seal of Wisdom a Viper-esque damage-for-mana ability is a distinct possibility, its current status does not support the ability to do so.

I don't think any serious retribution paladin thinks the burst nerfs are unjustified. The major issue now is our resource, mana. With Judgement of Wisdom, Divine Plea every cooldown and a priority 7 sec Judgements, I am barely holding up a rotation of CS, Judge and DS. Was 33%->15% too much? I would think so. If it was about 25% we might be able to squeeze in a Consecration or HoW where applicable. I am hoping this is like the initial Vengeance change many builds ago, where they are looking at the deep end of nerfs and 'testing things out' like they have before.

so you think guys that nerfing our sp and ap coeficients in half for judjement and seal is not noticable nerf?

also nerfed weapon part of seals damage of comander and martyr(blood)

Well it was mathed out earlier that the costs of DS/CD/Seal/Judge was about even to the new regen of JotW, but not by much. Barely enough to consecrate, and definitely not enough for any other specials. Though for HoW I would think during the last 20% burn stage you're allowed to blow through your resources to get it down. Your anti evil spells? Gimmicks.

I am actually of the opinion that what we bring to the table on top of our DPS in PvP is our healing... a warrior DPSes and applies MS/Hamstring/Stuns, retribution paladins DPS and throw HoP/HoF/HoSac and can throw a small heal every now and then (lets remind ourselves that HL we're still prohibitively expensive and time consuming in PvP - equal to most of the mana gained back from a Judgement and a whole 2.5s cast = interrupt city) The utility both provide is actually comparable, as the value of MS and snares in PvP is HUGE! Not to mention their gap closer.

As such, reducing the cost of our offensive ability, while fixing the PvE longevity issue, would still leave us as a warrior who forgot to put hamstring/MS/intercept on his bars in PvP.

Last, don't look now, but we're doing again. We're all making concessions. People are writing well thought out posts offering middle of the road "solutions" - forget that, reducing crit coefficients from 265% to 200% should have done it, PERIOD. Healing is something we bring because we don't have MS, we don't have WP, we don't have an offensive dispell or snare or closer. We lack all those things because we can "bubble and heal". FINE. Let's not all accept the destruction of our ability to heal in PvP as required. It wasn't.

This reminds me of the early TBC era feral druid knee-jerk nerfs, where, in response to similar PvP complaints about feral druids in bear form, they gutted bears so badly, they were forced to almost immediately hotfix mangle and lacerate, and most of the changes were effectively removed or toned down in future patches.

It's sad, they say they don't listen to complaining, but then too often the class that's being complained about gets hit with a gigantic overdone nerfbat.

But for a melee pvp class which has/had burst and defensive utility as its selling points, should the utility not be considered part of our package? That is what makes us different from rogues, warriors, shamans and death knights. All our utility has been focused on dispells, the hand spells and heals. If using any of the 3 specified drains us badly, I dare say retribution will be as it was in TBC, a niche pvp spec.

My sentiments exactly.

If you ever played a cleave team, even enh shamans, that are often touted as THE manaless hybrid, would often run out of mana purge spamming/earthshocking and dropping totems. There are no hybrids that can maintain their utility forever without running into mana issues.

But we already do not have infinite mana when using our utilities, healing alone takes out a large chunk of it. Perhaps it the instant 33% regen that is the culprit? What if the mana was returned slowly or dispersed throughout our abilities? An example would be CS proccing mana regen as well (lets say we keep the 15% figure). That would mean that our regen will be explicitly tied to us being in constant melee combat, and healing in direct melee combat will also equate easier interrupts on us barring bubbles. It also means the regen is staggered, which will not be too much an issue in pve since you will be going on full rotations most of the time and for pvp we can still be vurnerable to our consistent weakness, being kited.