WotLK talent trees/abilities discussion - Page 229

Deris · 10/28/08, 7:57 PM

Originally Posted by djkillingspree

Well, I'd like a pony, too. But the fact remains that Prot Paladins have all the tools they need to hold aggro just fine - and Prot Warriors/Ferals can get into the opposite problem on AoE pulls (not being able to taunt off all of the various obs that are going after the AoE caster). Again, unless there's something I'm not aware of, burst threat at the beginning of a fight has never been one of Prot's weaknesses and in fact has always been one of their biggest strengths relative to Warriors and certainly Druids.

Again, in the specific situation you're describing - in 3.0+ WoW - you just aren't generating enough threat if you are behind two people as a Prot pally. You have to really try hard to pull something off of a good tank.

Holding aggro isn't the problem - taunting on certain fights is. When your only taunt is actually detrimental for a few situations, there IS a problem.

Denogran · 10/28/08, 8:51 PM

Originally Posted by Deris

Holding aggro isn't the problem - taunting on certain fights is. When your only taunt is actually detrimental for a few situations, there IS a problem.

I've always found this way overrated myself. I've done all the TBC content as a tank now (except Archi), and I was annoyed at RD only a coupla time, in Gruul's lair. Other than that, the only annoying bit about it was the cooldown. I had no trouble telling other tanks to "taunt back, because I'm gonna get them all," and it never resisted any more than my fellow warrior or druid tanks.

To be fair, I've used a macro since the beginning of TBC. RD _was_ unusable before they added in the cast on enemy player. And yes, I think they should change their internal code to match the macro. But when I see comments like Questioner's above, I really gotta wonder what's going on. I've tanked Brut 10's of times now, and have taunted well over a hundred times, and not once have I had even a resist. So I'd be really hesitant to agree that the reason 6/10 taunts failed was due to RD.

As for a single-target taunt, I've more often wished for an AoE taunt than a single-target taunt myself. I can see how other people would find this one annoying though.

Kaylee · 10/28/08, 8:53 PM

Originally Posted by Dekkar

The exact reason they didn't remove seal procs from instant attacks is most likely Hammer of the Righteous. Prot needs it to proc seals.

It would have to be as a specific exception that Divine Storm and Crusader Strike didn't proc seals.

Well... strictly speaking, Hammer of the Righteous would be the exception if none of the other paladin strikes will proc seals. I don't see that being much of a problem anyway... even with unnerfed seals, so long as Hammer of the Righteous remains only usable with a one-handed weapon, the possible burst damage it can do is underwhelming in PvP anyway.

Anedris · 10/29/08, 12:36 AM

The RD behaviour that's annoying doesn't crop up on bosses because it happens when a mob is ricocheting around among many people. When a mob is swapping targets as RD is cast, the taunt doesn't land and the cooldown is used without any effect. (This is most obvious when there's a loose trash mob running all over the place - it's an uncommon but fairly regular occurrence for me to throw a taunt at such a mob and have it do nothing at all.) This would be entirely solved if they just allowed RD to act as a single target taunt whenever it failed to find a friendly target to stick to for whatever reason (i.e., current functionality plus whenever you target it on a hostile it single-target taunts that hostile in addition to its other effects).

Prinsesa · 10/29/08, 4:15 AM

Originally Posted by Dekkar

The exact reason they didn't remove seal procs from instant attacks is most likely Hammer of the Righteous. Prot needs it to proc seals.

It would have to be as a specific exception that Divine Storm and Crusader Strike didn't proc seals.

I don't see this as being a problem - if HOTR deals too little single target damage/threat if it loses a Seal proc, then pass it along to HOTR directly.

If it deals too little AOE damage? Same thing.

We'd like to think that the ability to offload a stack of Seal of Vengeance is a huge thing, when in reality you'd have more than enough mana to spam Consecrate in an AOE situation (whether due to BoSanc procs or SA healing) and be able to quickly build up stacks of SOV on everyone anyway via auto-attacks given our move into sub-2.0 tanking weapons.

Ivriniel · 10/29/08, 6:32 AM

So why do they come up with more Protection nerfs to get Retribution fixed? If the problem is Retribution solve it in a matter that only affects that one spec, not the two others.

Lowering Judgment damage and cooldown would simply mess up Prot rotations (we already have enough low cooldown abilities at 80) and possibly results in a net TPS loss. (Maybe someone with an US Forum account can point this out to GC)

Also HotR procing seals is one of the major benefits it has, removing it to balance Retribution dps doesn't make sense at all.

I've said it two months ago and it's still true, SoL has had a devastating effect on the Paladin class and it's not getting any better.

Littleitchy · 10/29/08, 7:19 AM

Originally Posted by Avitus

New single target Consecration ability: Whether a new standalone baseline ability or talented (or even a Consecration conversion through Glyph as has been suggested) it would do the same damage as consecration does now, scale the same way, have the same cooldown, but cost less mana (manageable/intended to be used for PvE rotation) and be single target/no AoE effect.

Edit: Posted about here, feel free to copy to US board (sometimes I really have to wonder about some people).

Just going to mirror what I said on the forums for futher discussion for balance's sake

Originally Posted by From My Post on Blizzard EU Forums

Honestly, if such an idea goes through, I wouldn't create it in the form of AoE consecration.

In order to create a balance, I would implement the ability as a physical DoT (obviously having the same traits you have mentioned), which would only deal damage when you are NEAR the unit you have placed the dot on.

PvE :- You would be, obviously, in meele range to the target upon which you have placed this debuff, that's OK

PvP :- The marked unit, could, if they so wish to, move away from you and proceed with ranged attacks

Such is my opinion anyway. Ideas quite frankly are worth more merit than the uninformed whine-fest the class has become

jere · 10/29/08, 9:17 AM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

I don't see this as being a problem - if HOTR deals too little single target damage/threat if it loses a Seal proc, then pass it along to HOTR directly.

If it deals too little AOE damage? Same thing.

We'd like to think that the ability to offload a stack of Seal of Vengeance is a huge thing, when in reality you'd have more than enough mana to spam Consecrate in an AOE situation (whether due to BoSanc procs or SA healing) and be able to quickly build up stacks of SOV on everyone anyway via auto-attacks given our move into sub-2.0 tanking weapons.

In solo'ing and levelling situations, you aren't going to be using consecration as much unless you are able to pull large groups. In many cases I found myself pulling 1-3 mobs, which really wasn't very efficient for spamming consecration, even with BoS up. The utility of proc'ing seals was pretty important to me at least. SoV would finish off runners usually. Plus HotR can proc the other seals too, so it isn't always about damage. Having multiple seal procs is a nice utility when you are by yourself, which is an aspect of this game for many of us.

Questioner · 10/29/08, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by Denogran

To be fair, I've used a macro since the beginning of TBC. RD _was_ unusable before they added in the cast on enemy player. And yes, I think they should change their internal code to match the macro. But when I see comments like Questioner's above, I really gotta wonder what's going on. I've tanked Brut 10's of times now, and have taunted well over a hundred times, and not once have I had even a resist. So I'd be really hesitant to agree that the reason 6/10 taunts failed was due to RD.

I never said it resisted. IT JUST FAILS. It goes on cooldown and the fight continues as if I had done nothing. No message in the log. It really suprises me that you've never seen it happen.

Edit: See Anedris post above.

I would imagine the specific on Brutallus the issue is him casting burn. I taunt, and the working of RD selects the other tank as it is the currently targetted person, and between that time the msg is registered on the server Brutallus switches targets to cast burn on someone else. Since nothing is aggro'd on the other tank at that time, RD completely fails. Hence why I described it as a race condition.

Corronach · 10/29/08, 11:06 AM

It was definitely problematic on Kalecgos. You'd taunt the demon down below and nothing at all would happen.

The generic reason a single target taunt is useful is for taunting off other tanks. You don't want to grab all their mobs, just a specific mob. It just seems weird that Blizzard would throw out the homogenization card on this one. (If the concern is being able to taunt 4 mobs at once, just put the two on a shared cooldown)

Anauel · 10/29/08, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Avitus

Edit: Posted about here, feel free to copy to US board (sometimes I really have to wonder about some people).

Since I didn't see anyone respond, I've posted it on the US Paladin forums.

• Theras · 10/29/08, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by Questioner

I never said it resisted. IT JUST FAILS. It goes on cooldown and the fight continues as if I had done nothing. No message in the log. It really suprises me that you've never seen it happen.

Edit: See Anedris post above.

I would imagine the specific on Brutallus the issue is him casting burn. I taunt, and the working of RD selects the other tank as it is the currently targetted person, and between that time the msg is registered on the server Brutallus switches targets to cast burn on someone else. Since nothing is aggro'd on the other tank at that time, RD completely fails. Hence why I described it as a race condition.

I've only seen this issue occur on Nalorakk, Kalecgos/Sathrovarr, and Brutallus to people that still use a Righteous Defense macro. You don't need one any more for taunting off players. If you do use a macro, and it happens to fire while the boss is using an RSTS ability, you get a taunt failure because the macro is actually targeting the boss' target instead of using the built-in implied targeting on the current tank. The only situation in which implied targeting doesn't seem to work is when you're taunting off an NPC (like Kalec), and in that rare case you can just hit your assist hotkey after RD and it works fine. That doesn't mean we don't need a single target taunt of course, I'm just explaining my observation on "taunt failure" that honestly shouldn't happen any more.

As a side note, I am a little concerned about how I'm going to do encounters like the Four Horsemen with my planned Protection Paladin MT / Retribution Paladin OT 10-man setup in WotLK (caveat: I only did 4H pre-TBC; I don't know how they've changed). I'd really hate to need a different class for an off-tank, when one of Blizzard's big drives in the expansion was to ensure (at least to some degree) that you bring your best players instead of specific classes. And when you have to sit your raid leader because his class' mechanics just plain don't work, that's a rather pointed failure on Blizzard's part.

Denogran · 10/29/08, 1:07 PM

Originally Posted by Questioner

I never said it resisted. IT JUST FAILS. It goes on cooldown and the fight continues as if I had done nothing. No message in the log. It really suprises me that you've never seen it happen.

Edit: See Anedris post above.

I would imagine the specific on Brutallus the issue is him casting burn. I taunt, and the working of RD selects the other tank as it is the currently targetted person, and between that time the msg is registered on the server Brutallus switches targets to cast burn on someone else. Since nothing is aggro'd on the other tank at that time, RD completely fails. Hence why I described it as a race condition.

See, again I just don't see this. 6 out of 10 times? I definitely was casting taunt while he had someone else targeted for burn last night and it was still working. And I can't ever remember it just failing, with no error message of any sort. Like ever, and I've been tanking( and taunting ), since kara.

I had RD not work for me _one_ time in last night's Sunwell clear, and that was because a warrior taunted nearly at the same time and stole my mob. It would have worked fine, but he managed to get his taunt slightly after mine.

And again, with regards to a single-target taunt, I think that we definitely do not need one, and that if you're having trouble pulling multiple mobs, you just need better coordination with your other tanks. Ya, when I was first starting SSC/TK, I'd die a bunch because my fellow tanks had no idea how my taunt worked and weren't anticipating all the mobs jumping on me. Now, they know that when I taunt, they grab their target back right quick and it all works fine. Like I said before, the lack of an all-encompassing AoE taunt has been a much bigger annoyance to me personally.

◊ zeidrich · 10/29/08, 1:07 PM

Originally Posted by Theras

As a side note, I am a little concerned about how I'm going to do encounters like the Four Horsemen with my planned Protection Paladin MT / Retribution Paladin OT 10-man setup in WotLK (caveat: I only did 4H pre-TBC; I don't know how they've changed). I'd really hate to need a different class for an off-tank, when one of Blizzard's big drives in the expansion was to ensure (at least to some degree) that you bring your best players instead of specific classes. And when you have to sit your raid leader because his class' mechanics just plain don't work, that's a rather pointed failure on Blizzard's part.

I was thinking about this the other day and the best thing I could come up with was:

Prot paladin glyphs for 1 target AS.
Prot paladin taunts off Ret paladin.
Ret Paladin taunts off Prot paladin.
(At this point Ret paladin has aggro on both, both have incredibly similar levels of threat)
Prot paladin AS his new target, ShoR, and Judgement. (This should hopefully put him over the ret paladin's threat assuming the fight doesn't go too long.)

Otherwise there's always this option:
Prot paladin taunts off Ret Paladin.
DPS warrior or DPS/Healer druid or DPS DK taunt off Prot paladin with their 20 yard taunt.
Ret Paladin taunts off temporary tank before it gets to them.

Which of course begs the question, why isn't the person in the middle step just filling the OT role? And isn't this counter to their intentions for any tank class to be viable tanks?

• Avitus · 10/29/08, 1:15 PM

Originally Posted by Anauel

Since I didn't see anyone respond, I've posted it on the US Paladin forums.

Thanks, hope it can stir up some attention from those in charge.

Originally Posted by Theras

As a side note, I am a little concerned about how I'm going to do encounters like the Four Horsemen with my planned Protection Paladin MT / Retribution Paladin OT 10-man setup in WotLK (caveat: I only did 4H pre-TBC; I don't know how they've changed). I'd really hate to need a different class for an off-tank, when one of Blizzard's big drives in the expansion was to ensure (at least to some degree) that you bring your best players instead of specific classes.

If Karazhan at the start of TBC was "entry level", I'd classify Naxx 10 (as well as 25) as severely below entry level, you really shouldn't worry about anything in that instance, let alone class setup. We had locks and hunters "tanking" some of the 4 HM in 10 man, pretty much anyone can.

Grigorim · 10/29/08, 1:20 PM

Originally Posted by Theras

I've only seen this issue occur on Nalorakk, Kalecgos/Sathrovarr, and Brutallus to people that still use a Righteous Defense macro. You don't need one any more for taunting off players. If you do use a macro, and it happens to fire while the boss is using an RSTS ability, you get a taunt failure because the macro is actually targeting the boss' target instead of using the built-in implied targeting on the current tank. The only situation in which implied targeting doesn't seem to work is when you're taunting off an NPC (like Kalec), and in that rare case you can just hit your assist hotkey after RD and it works fine. That doesn't mean we don't need a single target taunt of course, I'm just explaining my observation on "taunt failure" that honestly shouldn't happen any more.

As a side note, I am a little concerned about how I'm going to do encounters like the Four Horsemen with my planned Protection Paladin MT / Retribution Paladin OT 10-man setup in WotLK (caveat: I only did 4H pre-TBC; I don't know how they've changed). I'd really hate to need a different class for an off-tank, when one of Blizzard's big drives in the expansion was to ensure (at least to some degree) that you bring your best players instead of specific classes. And when you have to sit your raid leader because his class' mechanics just plain don't work, that's a rather pointed failure on Blizzard's part.

I've had Righteous Defense fail fairly frequently (on Nalorakk and various trash, alas my guild is not in Sunwell) since they changed RD functionality, and I stopped using a macro as soon as the change went in.

Also, I'd be more worried than the RD race condition if your raid plan is 2 pallies tanking. It's physically impossible to taunt on Gothik since the other tank is out of line-of-sight. 4 Horseman has been done with 2 pallies tanking, but it's no picnic (I imagine it would be much like the dual bear pulls before Nalorakk, you just need the DPS to take it easy for a minute and hit your single target buttons to aggro and split the melee horsemen).

• Theras · 10/29/08, 1:24 PM

Problem solved. I've been advised that the Four Horsemen are all rooted in the correct corners of the room (in Naxx 10 at least). It won't matter terribly much in the context of that encounter since we'll just have the melee follow you around, and when we cross in the middle of the room I'll taunt off you, you'll taunt off me, and my horseman should stick to me because I'll be the only person in melee range (and yours will to you because you'll actually have aggro).

Still, it doesn't bode well for running a double Paladin tank setup if we have to rely on stringent encounter design to actually work.

Edit: And yeah, anybody got any ideas for how we're going to do Gothik like this?

Corronach · 10/29/08, 1:25 PM

Originally Posted by Denogran

And again, with regards to a single-target taunt, I think that we definitely do not need one, and that if you're having trouble pulling multiple mobs, you just need better coordination with your other tanks. Ya, when I was first starting SSC/TK, I'd die a bunch because my fellow tanks had no idea how my taunt worked and weren't anticipating all the mobs jumping on me. Now, they know that when I taunt, they grab their target back right quick and it all works fine. Like I said before, the lack of an all-encompassing AoE taunt has been a much bigger annoyance to me personally.

Yeah I definitely agree the work around is as simple as the other tank classes knowing to grab their mobs back. The issue comes up when you have two protection paladins, it's a relatively minor concern, I just don't see why it's a big deal either way so why not allow it?

An AoE taunt would definitely be nice for the oh crap moments, but I think they want us BoPing people who are in trouble over taunting everything.

Grigorim · 10/29/08, 1:31 PM

Originally Posted by Theras

Edit: And yeah, anybody got any ideas for how we're going to do Gothik like this?

Druid, warrior, or death knight taunting, then you taunt off of them. In which case, as was said earlier, why aren't they just tanking instead? This has been brought up multiple times between Ghostcrawler stating "If we find that the lack of a single-target taunt really hurts paladins, then we'll give it to them. But we're not convinced that is the case yet." Note that this is after people were doing Naxxramas on beta and Paladins were bringing up the arguments re: Gothik and Horsemen (Gothik being the impossibility, Horsemen just being an inconvenience).

Brute · 10/29/08, 2:00 PM

Originally Posted by Grigorim

Druid, warrior, or death knight taunting, then you taunt off of them. In which case, as was said earlier, why aren't they just tanking instead?

Because if they're not tanking they're the dps? All they're essentially doing is 'the pull' for you... Its not exactly a new or unheard of mechanic to have other classes 'pulling' mobs for tanks. And a response of 'I shouldnt have to rely on other classes to pull my mobs for me' really doesnt hold a lot of weight when its a single encounter. If raid encounter design moves forward and paladins need other classes pulling/taunting for them on more fights, THEN theres an issue. When its a one off encounter... its a one off encounter. I dont know I just think you're turning the Gothik issue into a mountain when its really a molehill...

Deris · 10/29/08, 4:37 PM

Well I see a Prot Paladin as a liability, when you could have someone else tanking instead who won't screw things up. Sure it doesn't matter with Naxx, but nothing matters with naxx since you can bring in 25 people who have never seen a raid instance and clear the place. When we hit the harder instances, who is to say that single target taunt won't be all but required? It just seems like a stupid oversight on blizzard's part, since EVERY other tank has a single target taunt, and a multiple target taunt - but Paladins do not?

Sounds eerily familiar with Healing - all other healers have a multi-target heal and HoTs, but Paladins do not.

Denogran · 10/29/08, 5:58 PM

Originally Posted by Deris

Well I see a Prot Paladin as a liability, when you could have someone else tanking instead who won't screw things up. Sure it doesn't matter with Naxx, but nothing matters with naxx since you can bring in 25 people who have never seen a raid instance and clear the place. When we hit the harder instances, who is to say that single target taunt won't be all but required? It just seems like a stupid oversight on blizzard's part, since EVERY other tank has a single target taunt, and a multiple target taunt - but Paladins do not?

Sounds eerily familiar with Healing - all other healers have a multi-target heal and HoTs, but Paladins do not.

Oh My God!!!! Bust out the tinfoil hats!!!!

Blizzard has stated explicitly that they want paladins to be viable MTs and healers. If you don't believe them on that, then really the sky is falling for you and there's nothing anyone can say to fix it. If you do believe it (and they've never said anything that explicit with regards to paladins before), then you can assume they won't be stupid enough to create instances where we can't function, and then we won't have to solve problems that haven't even occurred yet. Which I think is the better solution since there are a ton of problems that have occurred and aren't fixed yet. See ret.

I mean, they could just as easily have invisible mobs in a future instance, in which case a paladin's taunt would be far superior to any other, as we could just use it on friendly targets and not have to fish around for the mob. Bam, suddenly we're the premier taunting class.

And, I agree with you that we need an AoE taunt, like all the other classes. I've wished for that about 10,000 times more in the last two years than I have for a single target taunt.

◊ Cathela · 10/29/08, 7:38 PM

Originally Posted by Denogran

Blizzard has stated explicitly that they want paladins to be viable MTs and healers. If you don't believe them on that, then really the sky is falling for you and there's nothing anyone can say to fix it. If you do believe it (and they've never said anything that explicit with regards to paladins before), then you can assume they won't be stupid enough to create instances where we can't function, and then we won't have to solve problems that haven't even occurred yet.

Well, it's not exactly a monolithic entity we're talking about here. There's not always perfect communication between the people working on one thing (class development) and the people working on something else (raid design, itemization, etc). Remember mp5 on the T4 tanking set? Or the prot paladin badge gear with spellhit that was released in the same patch when RD was changed to use physical hit? This little idiosyncrasy of RD is exactly the kind of thing I could see slipping through the cracks.

Personally, I don't care about an AoE taunt or a single-target taunt as much as I care about just having another taunt I can use when RD is on cooldown for whatever reason. In other words, either Mocking Blow or Challenging Shout would be fine with me.

Volrath50 · 10/29/08, 11:55 PM

Originally Posted by Cathela

Well, it's not exactly a monolithic entity we're talking about here. There's not always perfect communication between the people working on one thing (class development) and the people working on something else (raid design, itemization, etc). Remember mp5 on the T4 tanking set?

I always found that interesting. It really seemed to me like the Kara itemization was probably done early in the TBC process, and not revisited until 2.1. IIRC, when people calculated the item budget of the pre-2.1 items, they found that on many of the pieces the stamina was calculated under the old, classic stamina formula. It would also explain the MP5 on tanking gear, Spiritual Attunement wasn't in the game at the time they made the items, thus, they were designed on the deathbone model.

Additionally, the fact that there is almost no non-set pieces for what were, in classic "off-specs" (feral/boomkin, DPS warrior, prot/ret pally, ele/enh shammy) and only gear for what was in classic the only supported "raid specs", led me to believe that the Kara itemisation was done very early in TBC design, before the decision was made to support non-healing specs for hybrids. Then at some point, before all the skills were done, they added the tiered hybrid sets, but didn't go back and increase the itemisation beyond (like in classic raids) a few token DPS plate, feral, moonkin, etc pieces.

This would make sense, as I remember seeing screenshots from Kara back in late 2005, that look pretty much like it does today, when it was already billed as an "epic 10-man", and well before the 40->25 man change was announced (and probably even made).

Aquaman7 · 10/30/08, 5:55 AM

If any class is the "fill in the gap" healer, it's the Holy priest. Their strength is in versatility -- they have single-target heals, group heals, instant heals and hots. The standard (but by no means only) way to heal a raid is to have a Holy paladin on the tank along with a Resto druid, have a Resto shammy AE heal the group, and then put the Holy priest wherever you need them. We are also trying to get the Disc priest into a role similar to the paladin, but based more around damage avoidance than efficient, quick heals.

Just the latest post from GC that talks about Holy Paladins.

Well, since nobody says anything, I will add my thoughts about this.

1. - This is official confirmation that Discipline Priests will be on pair with Holy Paladins in PvE Tank Healing.

2. - GC said that he wanted Holy Paladins to be on a niche that is Tank Healing, and that's the reason for not making us equal to other healers, that means giving us one real Group (ae) heal or a Hot.

3. - Why should I play 1 Holy Paladin if a Disc Priest can do the same as me in a PVE Raid and when he goes PVP, he does way better then me and he also has more dps then me?

4. - Why GC doesn't promise to Holy Paladins that they goal is that they will be viable in Arena 2vs2 and 3vs3 with ratings of 2200+, like he did to Retribution Paladins?

5. - Is Retribution the only viable specc in arena for a Paladin?

6. - Did you ever wonder why a Paladin that wears Plate (the heaviest armour ingame) is far easier to kill then a Priest that wears Cloth (weakest armour ingame)?

Solutions: Hand of freedom / Hand of Sacrifice cooldown needs to be revised, Infusion of Light needs to be back to instant Holy Light with internal cooldown (30 sec maybe), Holy dps needs to be revised and to be on pair with other healers, Shockadin dps needs to be higher then other pure healing Class, Plate gear needs to bring more benefit to Holy Paladins in PvP.

EDIT: - To add my thoughts about this latest post from GC.