tayedaen

The fact that you do not get the race condition (ricocheting mob) as often as I did does not mean that the problem does not exist.
Perhaps you are just more lucky then I am.
Some players get this problem more often then others. Perhaps that's related to latency, I don't know.
But it _IS_ happening, so I would like to have a fix.
And please try not to dilute the discussion by mixing it with an AoE vs. single target discussion.
My main concern is the mechanic, not the number of targets.
I really do not care if it's AoE or single target. My point was always: It needs to go to (a) hostile target(s).

 

Fqubed

Make RD the on par with the shield, it taunts the current target and two nearby targets to you. This maitains the "AoE uncontroable" falvour and makes sure it does not simply fail if the mob is runing wild,

 

Smurfman

Hey Guys,

I'm new here, but I've been reading for a while. I've read lots of people's opinions on the nerfs/fixes to retadins (I've been Retadin since I hit 70 in 2.2, and lived through the never get a group outside my guild stuff). I just wanted to voice a few of my concerns, and I think I saw one mentioned before, but I never really saw a reply to it. Either way, thanks.

Righteous Vengeance - Question was answered below. I understood how stacking works with Deep Wounds, I was just confused how it worked with this ability since the tooltip said 40% damage instead of 40% damage caused.

Divine Storm - Umm yeah. I asked if it was really worth getting because of all the nerfs to it. I hadn't had my coffee yet, heh.

Mana - Answered in the past few pages.

Anyhow, thanks for the responses. If there are answers to all my questions, don't go search for them, just let me know and I'll look harder for them in the thread. Thanks guys!

Editted: to not sound so dumb. and not make people re-read questions that have been answered.

 

Tilted

Here's the deal. There are potentially three problems revolving around RD failures.

1) Some people still use the old targetoftarget macro for RD. This causes problems with RSTS abilities, causing RD to effectively do nothing. The simple solution is to ditch the macro and just use the base spell.

2) The target of your target changes during the latency involved in your client sending the server the RD message (aka "lag"). This can be threat changes, target death, soulshatter, feign death, whatever. This is an inherent flaw in RD's current design, simply because this is a game played over the Internet, and we don't all have sub-50ms ping times.

3) RD just simply fails. This isn't a macro problem, this isn't lag, and this isn't some funky design decision. This is a bug, and it needs to be fixed. It's not readily reproducible, such to the point where some people haven't even experienced the problem (including the poster I quoted). However, when it does happen, it happens a lot, and is a massive source of frustration. I've had it happen 3-4 times on a single Nalorakk fight, and I've had week after week without seeing it. The reason it only seems to be a problem on Nalorakk, Kalec, and Brut are because those are the only bosses in in all of BC raid content where tank switches via taunt are a critical aspect of the encounter. It's most noticeable on those three because a single taunt failure can lead to a wipe in a hurry.

 

Redcape

Smurfman, are you actually asking if it is worth ONE talent point to get a instant strike that procs seals? I would spend 15 talents points on DS if I had to. If you want the answers to these questions, read the previous pages, all of them are answered most definitively there.

 

Anedris

Righteous vengeance simply means that damage equal to 40% (8% per talent point) of your crit is dealt to the target over the next 8 seconds. The "stacking" simply means that you won't lose any damage by critting again during those 8 seconds - the DoT damage from the new crit simply gets added to the DoT damage remaining from the old crit and once it all ticks out the total damage done by the DoT will be equal to 40% of the damage of each crit. Not really complicated.

On mana you might want to read the last few pages of this thread (go back to before the RD discussion that surfaced in the last page or two). That's more or less all people have been talking about. The short version is that you will have enough mana to run a basic rotation (judgement, CS, DS) but whether you can use consecration, throw heals, or use hammer of wrath may depend on how much mana you're getting through spiritual attunement.

On divine storm... what else were you planning on doing with that GCD? Stand around looking pretty? And where were you going to put that talent point where it is going to increase your DPS? A rudimentary consideration of ret paladin rotations and the talent trees should make it very obvious that divine storm isn't going to be a DPS loss.

 

Smurfman

Yeah, I actually was. To that extent, I was more thinking that if we didn't need that, and RV doesn't turn out to really be very effective, then putting points elsewhere. However, in the end if RV really is supposed to help us with sustained DPS, then we can't get rid of it, so yeah one point is worth it. I'll check the last few pages and see if I can get the answers I was looking for. Thanks!

 

Anedris

Where would you put the points? There's virtually nothing in any of the other trees that would contribute meaningfully to ret DPS apart from divine strength, which you should already have. You're always going to take every DPS-beneficial point in ret because there's simply no competition anywhere else for those talent points.

 

incogn.egro.ito

double post delete please.

 

incogn.egro.ito

So I have been thinking about a few things, on how to better uplift the Paladin to be "on par" in all specs.
The things that I currently believe the class is missing is the following things.
1. Tanks are missing a fear break and a way to deal with MASSIVE spell damage.
2. Holy Paladins have nothing to really "do" in PvP. There is a lot of downtime as a Holy Paladin especially in 2s. This was the core reason for why, we were so gimped, because the only thing we could do to apply pressure is autoattack with seals and maybe holy shock.
3. Ret needs a "gap closer".
4. Crustrike needs some utility.

The fear break, gap closer and something to do other than stand there could be solved by this idea for an 11pt Prot talent.

A Test of Valor (30sec CD) 15% of Base.
The Paladin fills the target with Holy Energy questioning their valor. The target is immobilized for 6seconds.
This is not a fear break persay, but it does solve the biggest issue with why being feared is so annoying for tanks, positioning. If you are feared, I do not believe (correct me if I am wrong) avoidance. This also gives Holy Paladins an ability to help their partners stay on their targets and Ret another way to catch up.

I believe Holy Shield and Santuary should be rolled into a 1pt talent and placed where sactuary is. 31 Prot should be:
Temple of the Light (20CD)
Paladin fills himself with Holy energy rebuking the next negative spell, and converting the damagen to healing for 3 raid or party members, within the next 6seconds.

As for CruStrike, it is obvious that Ret would NEVER get a healing debuff. So what is the next best thing? Well with Ret being able to regen a groups mana, provide buffs, do good burst and provide spot healing with an nearly "unlimited" supply of resources. Ret has a new group to play with the defensive comp. I think that Crustrike should also provide an offensive spell damage debuff. It helps Ret against it greatest weakness casters, and is extremely unique. The offensive spell debuff can not be LARGE, but needs to be good. Anywhere for 10-20%. Quick example if a fireball was going to hit a targt for 5000, with a 10% debuff it would hit a target for 4500. It doesn't seem like a lot initialy, but it adds up and places mana pressure on a target it without actually pressuring them.

Comment on my ideas, please :P. Sorry if this is a little poorly written sneeking it in at work.

 

Denogran

We already have this as a baseline spell, talented by Tier 4 of Prot: Hammer of Justice. Blizzard really doesn't enjoy incapacitating bosses though, so it's almost never functional. I'm not sure if it screws with their code mechanics, or they just don't like the burst that could be leveraged at that time (or the suspension of raid damage), or what, but they've been very reluctant to make bosses affected by stun affects (which is basically what you're proposing).

 

incogn.egro.ito

It would be a stun or incapacitate. It would be a root. That you can place on yourself for PvE, so you can stay in position, so you would still be "feared" just not running around like an idiot, while in PvP it is just a way to stop someone in their tracks.

 

◊ Lord BEEF

Don't wishlist please.

 

Khh

imho we dont need a new ability

specialy since we a new ability(divine storm) that seems to have no purpose besides making our entire class balanced around it

is not hard to see that we need a new attack abilities and to some extent an aoe attack, but doesnt take a genious to see that being able to do 3 strong instant attacks while we can auto attack in the time of our stun is extremely overpowered

if they had gave up on divinestorm being something other than a instant attack likely the current nerf mess woulnt have happened

 

GSH

One solution is to tie CS, DS, Judgement, and Consecration together with a 3s shared cooldown. Effectively double the GCD for Retribution paladin strikes. That spaces out the damage, allowing individual abilities to be tuned higher, but not being able to string them together for burst. We hit hard, but hit slowly, and we don't need to have our mana tuned so strictly.

More here (with graphs!):Blessing of Kings: A Retribution Solution

 

Antmanton

Yay, a little more collateral damage to Prot and Holy via the AW forbearance nerf. Not that invincible burst-kills were really fair or balanced, but the fix seems unnecessarily harsh when they could have simply linked the cooldowns instead. It's not really much fun trying to look ahead two minutes in the future trying to guess whether or not I might need my shield or can afford to risk popping wings for burst healing, threat, or damage, with the penalty for not being sufficiently clairvoyant being death.

Can anyone with beta raid experience at level 80 as a Protection paladin give some impression of your threat situation now? Is AW something you really used or counted on while tanking, or were you still light-years ahead of your DPS's threat even without it (counting the recent Seal nerfs)?

Similarily, to the Holy paladins raiding on beta, did you make much use of AW for burst healing, or is it something you think you can do without if you have to? For the Arena junkies, was AW ever a part of your rotation, whether for emergency healing or to try to apply some extra offensive pressure?

 

Jebraltar

From my time on the beta doing Naxxramas, I could have thrown darts at my keyboard and held aggro. I was doing Naxx until about a week before 3.0 hit live, so there's been a few other nerfs since then. (Again, mostly collateral from Ret nerfs...) Even so, I don't really see threat as a serious problem with this - I barely ever remembered to use wings and DPS never came remotely close to pulling.

 

Suicidal Zebra

I quick point on the change to Avenging Wrath mentioned by Antmanton.

Seeking to hotfix this ability rather than placing a change in the next content patch hamstrings their options quite severely. It is quite possible that re-linking to Forbearance was the only change they could make that satisfied the requirement for a nerf and the nerf utilises a mechanic that we are all familiar with.

I'm not sure that the PvE Ret impact will be all that great except on very specific fights with dangerous debuffs that can be Shielded away. Of course for PvP, Holy and Prot especially this is a pretty significant change as it effectively locks out multiple abilities from use. I've never particularly like the Forbearance mechanic, and time hasn't made me more amenable to it.

EDIT: It would probably be a mistake to assume that threat limitations (or lack thereof) in Naxx are going to be indicative of the whole of Wrath's Raiding cycle. I really don't think that they designing in the irrelevancy of threat in the long run, merely giving them a lead for entry-level raiding.

 

Hulabaloon

AW for healing has never felt very well implemented since it's on the GCD. It would only be useful if you knew the fight well enough to be able to plan well ahead of time when to use it. As a tool for reacting to increased damage it's completely useless.

Now that it's tied to bubble cooldown I may as well just take it off my bar completely.

 

• Avitus

I really doubt the way to go is to completely change how everything works. 3 second GCD between everything would pretty much destroy how the class feels, would be horribly boring to play (you press a button every 3 seconds) and would require a multitude of adjustments/rebalancing to how hard everything hits. I think such sweeping suggestions will generally go no where.

This is exactly the problem. In small instances/10 mans AW is usually a death sentence half the time. Similarly in PvP it's almost never used unless Bubble is on CD. In 25 mans, I can't count the number of times I died due to some random effect where healers expected me to bubble (burn, twins conflag) and all I could say was "I had forbearance from AW".

I'm fine with them trying to balance it, but forbearance is not the answer, it really makes it way too cumbersome to use most of the time. The correct way of doing it would be this:

Using AW, cancels currently active Divine Shield. Using Divine Shield, cancels currently active AW. Hell, with a /cancelaura macro you could achieve this if "coding it" is a problem.

 

mclem

I'm only familiar with Nalorakk of those three, but I do note that most of my problems with taunting on that went away with two changes: One was to learn to not taunt during the charge (i.e. RSTS problems), the other seemed to go away when patch 2.4.3 came. I note in 2.4.3 patch notes there was this little tidbit: "Taunts will now properly stick when a target is stunned while being taunted. "

Nalorakk pauses briefly while he shapeshifts. Do the other two enter a brief no-damage/emote state during the period that the taunt is required? May that constitute a 'stun' somewhere in the code?

 

Selenia

Either that or they could change the bubble debuff from a penalty in swingtime to a penalty in damage dealt.

This would let you use AW to mitigate some of the loss in DPS from bubbling, would prevent bubblewings-instagib in PvP and most importantly, it'd let Holy use Wings to amplify healing output while bubbled in Arena or during heavy raiddamage, something they could most certainly need.

I certainly agree that Forbearance isn't the answer though.

 

Cevil

Two things we can take from this:

1.) They're clearly balancing for PVP at 70. This hotfix proves it. If they weren't concerned about that, they would've waited for a patch.

2.) There's only so much you can do with a hotfix. Since they are clearly balancing for 70, and doing it with hotfixes, they're really not interested in the class being underpowered at the moment, in PVE or PVP. PVE, right now, no one can honestly say this matters in the grand scheme of things when you can pug Hyjal and have Ret be the top DPS. Things are soout of whack right now that Blizzard's decided cutting back TOO far is probably better than not cutting back far enough. Thus, ham-handed hotfixes.

The correct solution to this, mentioned many times in many places, is to just make the two spells: Bubble and AW, mutually exclusive. That doesn't seem like something hotfixable, so we're going to have to wait for a patch baseed change on that.

Right now, Ret's overhaul from a PVP standpoint has been a failure. Given GCs latest statement about a compensatory 11-pt. Prot talent, I think it's clear Blizzard is coming to the same conclusion. They're in damage control mode on Ret at 70 right now. I don't think anyone can make the case otherwise, nor can anyone make the case that they're taking many factors into account when not all the changes have been patched in yet.

Because of that, I'm really not sure if there's anything concrete we can take from Ret right now. I fully expect things like Divine Storm being Physical to be reverted at 80. I think Seal of Command damage will jump back up. Judgement of Wisdom is going to be changed in functionality again. My guess is mana drains as well. This AW / Divine Shield issue will also be fixed in a correct manner; the arguments against it's current fix are too sound. The entire point of taking AW off Forbearance was so people would use it. They're not going to sacrifice that mentality because Bubble/Wrath was so strong (which it was.)

 

Sapp

The 100% attackspeed debuff on the bubbles is the core of the issue, really. It's a deprecated debuff that is fundamentally irrelevant now that we have real instant damage sources. It is an artifact of 1.0-era when all of our damage, such that it was, was based directly off our auto-attack.

By the way, in case you didn't notice, this hotfix also removed the defense-penetration portion of the talent for AW. That was overpowered, but stealth nerfing it without even mentioning the change, especially after people had complained about it for so long in beta, does not sit right with me.

Wings' current state is, rather amusingly, worse than it was before 3.0. Remember, they took it off forberarance and nerfed it from 30% to 20% because of that, and then increased forbearance by 2m because it would no longer lockout AW. So we've gone from 30% with a 1m lockout to 20% with a 2m lockout.

Edit: Cevil's conclusions are probably the right ones. Some hope can be drawn from that, then, that some if not all of these nerfs might be reverted at 80.

On Ret paladins:
<Fyr> its like they went from sniffing powdered sugar for 3 years, got real cocaine for 2 weeks, and are pissed that they're going back to the sugar again

 

flyingtoastr

I wouldn't write off Sanctified Wrath at the moment. One of the other "Forbearance" talents (Divine Guardian) is also bugged to hell right now as a result of Blizzard hotfixing instead of patching.

Incidentally, the DG bug sticks you with the effect after you use AW for the remainder of your time online. In other words you permanently take 30% of the raid's damage.

Divine Favor still costs mana.