WotLK talent trees/abilities discussion - Page 237

• frmorrison · 09/16/08, 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by Spenda

I thought the following items were the AP PvP set the premades have:

LK Arena - Paladin Melee Set
LK Honor - Plate DPS Belt / Bracers / Boots

All of those had strength on them at the time mmo-champion listed them.

The 80 Pre-mades have that blue set (I don't recall if it has the epic non-set, but it has strength on them) and 2 epic rings with strength and an attack power trinket and two weapons enchanted with 90 AP.

Andrast · 09/16/08, 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

The 80 Pre-mades have that blue set (I don't recall if it has the epic non-set, but it has strength on them) and 2 epic rings with strength and an attack power trinket and two weapons enchanted with 90 AP.

If you got onto Murmur quickly enough you could purchase some of the "Season 5" Hateful epic gear from the plate vendor in Dalaran. You also get a variety of necks/trinkets/cloaks. Coincidentally the cloaks have an enchant that isn't active since it required 400 enchanting.

I really wished they'd provided us with some pve gear to facilitate better testing. It is VERY difficult to compare pallies with a 2-hander who are potentially less dependant on hit to enhance shaman to rogues to mages all when barely anyone has any hit available on their pvp sets.

Tuftears · 09/17/08, 1:00 AM

Here are the 51 prot/20 ret stats, self-buffed with BoKings

Spellpower:
1853 spellpower
38 hit rating
18.70% spell crit
128.5 dps melee (1.6 attack speed)
586 attack power
19.92% melee crit
6 expertise (-1.5% dodge)
370 block value
202 str, 1387 sta

Melee:
596 spellpower
54 hit rating
24.68% crit
348.7 dps melee (2.6 attack speed)
2618 attack power
29.11% melee crit
6 expertise (-1.5% dodge)
758 block value
778 str, 1823 sta

So there's a clear strength difference.

I think I may have misquoted the Shield of Righteousness stats from the shockadin version. It should have been:

Spellpower: Shield of Righteousness (739 avg, 1477 crit)
Melee: Shield of Righteousness (1349 avg, 2787 crit)

Sorry for the error!

Tuftears · 09/17/08, 1:57 AM

To atone for my error, I stripped except for shield. Still 51 prot/20 ret spec'd.

Naked:
192 str, 255 sta
604 AP, +126 damage (from sta and shield), 12.80% crit
Block of 377.

Shield of Righteousness: avg 1176, crit 2353

AP-gear only:
192 str, 690 sta
1272 AP, +257 damage (from sta and shield), 17.57% crit
Block of 377.

Shield of Righteousness: avg 1294, crit 2587

Switched to enough strength gear to equal the AP from above:
484 str, 803 sta
1280 AP, +290 damage (from sta and shield), 18.78% crit
Block of 567.

Shield of Righteousness: avg 1679, crit 3xxx

-- dangit. World server crashed again before I could get that last number.

Spenda · 09/17/08, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by Tuftears

Still 51 prot/20 ret spec'd.

Naked:
192 str, 255 sta
604 AP, +126 damage (from sta and shield), 12.80% crit
Block of 377.

Shield of Righteousness: avg 1176, crit 2353

AP-gear only:
192 str, 690 sta
1272 AP, +257 damage (from sta and shield), 17.57% crit
Block of 377.

Shield of Righteousness: avg 1294, crit 2587

Thank you for all your work on this. Something still seems out of place here. In both your Naked and AP-gear only you show an identical 377 block value, and yet the damage done is different. If you are sure they were both at 377, then that seems to indicate that Shield of Righteousness may scale with AP and/or SP as well as block value. I was not aware of that. Can anyone else confirm this?

bellator · 09/17/08, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by Spenda

Thank you for all your work on this. Something still seems out of place here. In both your Naked and AP-gear only you show an identical 377 block value, and yet the damage done is different. If you are sure they were both at 377, then that seems to indicate that Shield of Righteousness may scale with AP and/or SP as well as block value. I was not aware of that. Can anyone else confirm this?

Think you've missed something here. The damage difference is exactly 10%. In the naked test he had no sword, and in the AP test he had a sword equipped which would trigger thr 10% bonus from 1H Weapon Spec, accounting for the difference

flyingtoastr · 09/17/08, 1:00 PM

So in the next push they're giving Death Knights "rewards for the selfless buffer".

-- Abom's Might now grants 2% Strength at all times.
-- Improved Icy Talons now grants 2% haste at all times.
-- Ebon Plaguebringer now grants 3% crit at all times.

Here's to hoping they do the same for such lackluster talents as the ret utilities.

Davenrothz · 09/17/08, 2:07 PM

I wish I checked here first as someone created a very nice one, however I don't think it was done for all items of gear, just for weapons.

Here is the one I've been working on:
http://www.careerprofessionals.info/...ion_Values.xls

I created it because I wanted to know with the gear I have now, what values will it turn into if you include the 15% str, etc. I also wanted to know my TPS with these new values, when you add in spell hit, melee hit, etc (I believe that Inspiring & Heroic Presence still affect one or the other).

It would've been nice to include tons of gear, but I figured I'm lazy ... and I'd just figure out the difference myself with a calculator, plug the number in, and see the results. I've also included drop down boxes to indicate what buffs you'll have during the raid.

Also, I've only included this for level 70 gear because my brain hurt too much to think about level 80 gear.

It helped me find out that I'd rather stay with my Amani Punisher rather than the healing mace that turns DPS with 3.0.2 because of the spell hit affecting SoV & Shield of Righteousness so much.

Also, the new forumlae for SoV SUCKS in WoWHead. With my current gear I get about ~1k non crit when I judge with 5 applications, but it looks to be 40% less than that after patch. I'm quite confused because a lot of my gear that didn't give me threat before because of lack of Spl Damage, and with all this newly found threat, I get less DPS? HUH?

I hope those forumlae are tweaked back to their original values, or inbetween.

SoV Application --> Right now:
(0.019*SP + 0.039*AP)*6
Old:
(0.034*SP + 0.070*AP)*6

SoV Judgement --> Right now:
(1+0.32*SP + 0.20*AP)*1.1^5 [or is it 1.1^4?)
Old:
(1+0.58*SP + 0.36*AP)*1.1^5 [or is it 1.1^4?)

Consecration & Shield of Righteousness didn't get forumla nerfed, just SoV. I didn't pay attention to SoRighteousness tho... perhaps I should check on that Seal now that it got nerfed.

**EDIT**: I tried to post on the Maintankadin site, but it asked me for some authentication code, which I thought I put the right name in, but didn't work out that way and locked... but I was able to host it on my site noted above.

Blutelf · 09/17/08, 2:59 PM

Posters on both beta and PTR forums claim that there currently is a bug with Sanctified Wrath and damage absorption shields, possibly similar to the Sudden Death bug that would let Warriors deal six-figure hits, but not as extreme. The theory is that the damage is actually doubled or something.

Has anyone been able to reproduce this, or is it just another rumor? There have been quite a few sources claiming this.

Tuftears · 09/17/08, 3:31 PM

Originally Posted by bellator

Think you've missed something here. The damage difference is exactly 10%. In the naked test he had no sword, and in the AP test he had a sword equipped which would trigger thr 10% bonus from 1H Weapon Spec, accounting for the difference

Thanks for reminding me of that, I was wondering too! My next run was going to be to see if spellpower had any effect on Shield of Righteousness... But this seems like a much more likely explanation, sparing me the work.

Thought: Shield of Righteousness should maybe be on same cooldown as Holy Shock and Crusader Strike? Buff some other damage source to make up for it, perhaps, but it feels wrong to be treating it as a damage source for holy specs.

Khaelarys · 09/17/08, 3:41 PM

I disagree completely - it does a fantastic job of making up some of the loss dps for ret when I shield up, and it's another instant ability to blow when I need to shield up and pick up adds to spread around some of the damage.

As for holy... I guess I'm not sure why this being available as a cooldown is a problem. They certainly have cooldowns to spare for dps, is it because it's not purely spell based in scaling ?

Tuftears · 09/17/08, 3:52 PM

More my thought is that it's a 'high threat' move, and if you're instance-DPSing for some reason, you don't want to out-threat the tank - so I would make it share a cooldown with the other 'instacast' DPS abilities and increase their DPS somewhat to compensate. In other words, if you're throwing on a shield as ret in order to help tank, it would lock out crusader strike but do equal damage and give you more threat. Otherwise, you have other instacast DPS moves.

Davenrothz · 09/17/08, 4:13 PM

Originally Posted by Davenrothz

I wish I checked here first as someone created a very nice one, however I don't think it was done for all items of gear, just for weapons......

Sorry if my post was a bit 'not in line' of how the conversation was going, I just didn't have a choice!

I couldn't create my own thread, and had to 'interrupt' here. I just needed/wanted some feedback on my TPS calculator as well as input as to the formula changes. I didn't have another place to go and I know EJ's reputation for being a bit of a thinktank/theorycrafter, as well as not finding such a spreadsheet existing 'in the wild'. I'm a tankadin looking for some luv...

Thanks ahead of time for any and all feedback

Selenia · 09/17/08, 4:20 PM

Originally Posted by Blutelf

Posters on both beta and PTR forums claim that there currently is a bug with Sanctified Wrath and damage absorption shields, possibly similar to the Sudden Death bug that would let Warriors deal six-figure hits, but not as extreme. The theory is that the damage is actually doubled or something.

Has anyone been able to reproduce this, or is it just another rumor? There have been quite a few sources claiming this.

It's not just a rumor. And the bug seems to be affecting damage absorbtion shields period. Hunters, mages, rogues and warriors have all reported huge crits piercing through damage shields.

I've only been able to reproduce a small one, which amplified my damage by around 600. If you check the combat log on absorb, it'll occasionally list the absorbed amount as a negative. That damage seems to get added onto the damage tally rather than absorbed off.

Why it does this? Noone knows. Exactly when it does this? Noone knows.

Investigation is ongoing.

Khaelarys · 09/17/08, 4:21 PM

I understand the mechanics of what you're saying, I'm still just baffled as to why. If you think the dps is too high with SotR available all the time, why would you adjust the "dps somewhat compensate". Did I just completely miss where you reasoned this out?

High threat abilities have intrinsic deterrents to using them for dps - but a completely arbitrary shared cooldown on abilities just because they're both instant damage abilities seems - well, it just seems 'Huh?'.

Davenrothz: Feedback is, your guild link is too long.