WotLK talent trees/abilities discussion - Page 28

Divinefury · 07/24/08, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by GSH

Hammer of the Righteous is pretty weird at the moment. It may be bugged. This is what I observed.

Base weapon (Amani Punisher-1.6spd): 20-113
Character sheet damage: 116-213
Observed white damage: 76-132
Observed HotR damage: 35-120

The damage was much lower than I was expecting. Also, I haven't seen it crit yet.

Bah. Damage.

What about the threat? Does it cause so much threat your eyes bleed? It could cause 1 dmg if the threat it causes is massive.

• Chicken · 07/24/08, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Aeverius

Am I missing something? Since when is Holy Light a channeled spell?

Considering we have no actual channeled spells I think it's safe to assume he meant spells with a cast time. Anyway, the only post I can find which seems to refer to Holy Light and not interrupting swings is here:

It looks like all Paladin spells have been changed to not reset the swing timer. This means that a Holy Paladin could actually DPS a raid boss effectively while healing by at least running Seal of (Damage Over Time) on it and casting Hammer of Wrath when appropriate. Of course this assumes that they don't have to spam FoL or something like that.

WotLK Wiki • View topic - Hammer of Wrath not resetting swing timer

Another poster in that thread says you can't swing while casting Holy Light but once Holy Light finishes you'll swing immediately. Kind of like how Hunters currently work with Steady Shot.

Not to rain on WotLKWiki's parade, but could someone on the beta try this out? And if it does work, I really wonder if it's intended.

Palados · 07/24/08, 12:40 PM

If this is the case I could even spam FoL and letting my weapon swing the boss between casts. Sounds interesting. Will healing from JoL (in some sence self healing) trigger spiritual attunement? Never bothered with it before, but it could be handy in wotlk.

• Chicken · 07/24/08, 12:43 PM

Unless it's being changed Judgement of Light doesn't provide healing through Spiritual Attunement, regardless of who the person that put up the Judgement of Light is.

Thorgred · 07/24/08, 1:19 PM

Wouldn't it be fantastical for everyone involved if Divine Strength got switched with Benediction?

Pros:
Beacon-holy = No more complete waste of 5pts in tier1 prot.
Sheath-holy = Higher AP
Ret = You're probably getting both talents anyhow.
Prot = Removes the obligation to take Benediction as filler to get to deflection.

Also,
I don't know if it has been discussed yet, but has anyone considered a high-threat Prot build with 3/3 sheath of light? It seems that at the moment our 51-point is kind of lackluster. If a Prot pally has say 2000 AP raid-buffed come end-game LK (quite easy to obtain with Might, Battleshout, Strength of Earth and a little strength), thats an extra 600 spelldamage. Add that to approx 1800 stam (rough guess) and a +400 spellpower weapon, and you're looking at upwards of 1500 Spellpower upon entering raids.

Something like http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZE0zhxzzggoeohZtcxz0f0h 0/48/23

Friesia · 07/24/08, 1:20 PM

Originally Posted by Chicken

Considering we have no actual channeled spells I think it's safe to assume he meant spells with a cast time. Anyway, the only post I can find which seems to refer to Holy Light and not interrupting swings is here:

WotLK Wiki • View topic - Hammer of Wrath not resetting swing timer

Another poster in that thread says you can't swing while casting Holy Light but once Holy Light finishes you'll swing immediately. Kind of like how Hunters currently work with Steady Shot.

Not to rain on WotLKWiki's parade, but could someone on the beta try this out? And if it does work, I really wonder if it's intended.

This is not true. Casting both HL and FoL definitely does reset the swing timer. Just tested it now.

◊ Cathela · 07/24/08, 1:22 PM

Originally Posted by Thorgred

Wouldn't it be fantastical for everyone involved if Divine Strength got switched with Benediction?

Prot = Removes the obligation to take Benediction as filler to get to deflection.

Some Prot paladins prefer to skip Redoubt and Shield spec, so they might be annoyed at being forced into Benediction.

Personally, I make Redoubt part of every tanking build I do, so this would be great for me.

◊ Cathela · 07/24/08, 1:25 PM

EDIT: Dammit, sorry for the double post.

Originally Posted by bellator

Out of interest, has anyone tested to see if Hammer of Righteous builds up stacks of SoV on all the mobs it hits in the was Divine Storm does? If it does then SoR could be the single target seal, and SoV could be the 2-3 mob tanking seal

[...]

Unfortunately that was a typo. With DS proccing SoR, i'm using SoR and finding that JoL,DS,CS can kill most mobs. Sometimes an extra tap is needed (since mt gear is beyond poor). I usually use SoC when i notice my mana is going low for the quick stun, JoC mana refresh

Can someone check to see which seals can and cannot be procced by Divine Storm and Hammer of the Righteous?

(If I recall, Crusader Strike can proc anything but SoC?)

Dram · 07/24/08, 1:31 PM

Actually I don't think Crusader Strike can proc and damaging seals, however Divine Storm is definitely procing SoB/SoC.

flyingtoastr · 07/24/08, 1:32 PM

Originally Posted by Cathela

If I recall, Crusader Strike can proc anything but SoC?

CS can't proc any damage seals (and I've never taken the time to test the others).

Zcion · 07/24/08, 1:36 PM

My question doesn't refer primarily to paladins, but I thought I would ask in this thread about a curious thing a friend told me.

Even though he is at best an unreliable source as he spends all his time on the official wow forums and takes anything written there as gospel, what he was arguing against me yesterday made me worried.

He is basically saying ( and arguing strongly ) that even though some abilities like the warrior's battle shout or the paladin's aura are now raid wide in Wrath, they would apply only to the 5 closest/applicable raid members. He says he has a coworker in the beta that confirmed this to be true.

I really don't think this is true and even think it is kind of silly, but I just wanted to be sure he isn't right. If he is, I see a lot of potential problems in raids that were way easier to deal with by building 5man groups in it with these abilities in mind.

bellator · 07/24/08, 1:41 PM

Originally Posted by Cathela

EDIT: Dammit, sorry for the double post.

Can someone check to see which seals can and cannot be procced by Divine Storm and Hammer of the Righteous?

(If I recall, Crusader Strike can proc anything but SoC?)

Divine Storm can proc all seals. Dont think hammer can proc any (might be wrong about jol/w)

jere · 07/24/08, 1:48 PM

Originally Posted by GSH

Hammer of the Righteous is pretty weird at the moment. It may be bugged. This is what I observed.

Base weapon (Amani Punisher-1.6spd): 20-113
Character sheet damage: 116-213
Observed white damage: 76-132
Observed HotR damage: 35-120

The damage was much lower than I was expecting. Also, I haven't seen it crit yet.

I didn't see anyone post this info yet in the thread, so forgive me if I missed it.

Hammer of the Righteous does seem to crit, and it crits for 200%

**Posted by Worldi on Maintankadin

Friesia · 07/24/08, 1:50 PM

Originally Posted by Cathela

Can someone check to see which seals can and cannot be procced by Divine Storm and Hammer of the Righteous?

Divine Storm will proc anything and everything, about to test the Hammer now.

edit: Bellator beat me to it :P

edit2: From limited testing (as the realm is now down) Hammer of Righteousness will not proc any seals. It does, however, proc judgement effects, so if you have JoL on all the targets then you can get back a fair chunk of HP. If anyone finds evidence to the contrary please let me know!

Marcos · 07/24/08, 1:53 PM

It's been too long since I've played the game, and as such I can't remember for sure whether Righteous Defense was usable outside of the GCD or not, but has anyone checked to see whether it is usable outside of the GCD in Wrath assuming it is limited by the GCD currently in Live?

Friesia · 07/24/08, 2:19 PM

Originally Posted by Marcos

It's been too long since I've played the game, and as such I can't remember for sure whether Righteous Defense was usable outside of the GCD or not, but has anyone checked to see whether it is usable outside of the GCD in Wrath assuming it is limited by the GCD currently in Live?

Righteous Defense does trigger the GCD.

Marcos · 07/24/08, 2:29 PM

Originally Posted by Friesia

Righteous Defense does trigger the GCD.

Thanks!

Now I'm just left wondering whether they will eventually give Righteous Defense the same GCD benefit as other taunts, ie. Taunt, Death Grip and Growl. This is, of course, assuming that I didn't misread another post stating that Death Grip did not trigger the GCD.

GSH · 07/24/08, 2:37 PM

Originally Posted by Thorgred

Wouldn't it be fantastical for everyone involved if Divine Strength got switched with Benediction?

I'm not sure this would be good. Baseline 2 Strength = 1 Block Value. Between Redoubt, Shield Specialization and Holy Shield we block an awful lot. Strength might actually turn out to be an effective *mitigation* stat as well as a threat stat through Hammer of the Righteous, the new Seal scaling, and Shield of Righteousness.

We may end up primarily using Strength for threat and mitigation, and Stamina for threat (indirectly through Spell Power conversion) and health. This would allow us to gear using warrior plate defense gear. Take a look at the Cobalt blacksmithing armour. Imo, that style of armor may end up being very powerful Protection gear.

Kadrok · 07/24/08, 3:19 PM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

Has anyone tested how Judgements of the Wise assigns its mana in a party situation? I'd assume a Chain Heal-esque AI that looks for whoever's lowest on mana, then always the Paladin himself, but you never know.

I tested this over the course of a few hours last night, and Judgements of the Wise does not appear to be functioning properly in party / raid situations. I still received 60% mana just as I do when solo, but no mana was rewarded to other party or raid members, regardless of current mana levels.

It might prioritize the individual that has the lowest total mana pool or some such odd mechanic. I'll try doing some more specialized testing tonight.

Divinefury · 07/24/08, 3:35 PM

Over on Maintankadin it looks like Hammer of the Righteous may benefit from a slow 1 hander.

Originally Posted by Vanifae

Hammer of the Righteous

Hammer of the Righteous is awesome.

I tanked Utgarde Keep again last night much more assured of how to handle the dungeon. I started off using my Hammer of Judgment but I decided to experiment and use Coldstone Cutlass instead just after the first boss.

Now these numbers are rough but with the hammer I was doing about 200ish holy damage per hit with Hammer of the Righteous. When I switched to the cutlass my damage per hit jumped to about 540ish holy damage per hit. Keep in mind this is hitting up to three targets every three seconds for about 140ish mana.

I will get exact numbers tonight, along with a Combat Log for better documentation.

Now you may think my overall spell damage suffered but my attack power increased, not enough to be commensurate with the loss but not so much that I would be gimped. What I noticed is that I could change my cycles up; I did not have to use Consecrate much, beyond maybe initial contact with the pull or to pick up incoming adds. Once I had them established and on me, I could tab target Hammer of the Righteous and hold threat very easy while keeping a modest mana pull only resorting to Consecrate when I needed a threat boost on several mobs at once.

This ability is ridiculously cheap at this point, usable every six seconds, and it deals really nice damage when you have a proper weapon to take advantage of it. I know it may be hard to do, but I am inclined to say that the days of us hunting down spell damage weapons may be coming to an end; or it will be reserved solely for AoE damage and even then that may be questionable.

Personally I enjoyed it, it made paladin tanking seem much more active; Hammer of the Righteous is a step in the right direction. Cheap high threat ability that hits multiple enemies so it plays to our strengths as a tank, and yet allows us much greater flexibility in and out of tanking role.

I still have to verify if it can crit, I have not seen it crit, but then again I need to look through my combat logs to see for sure.

More to come as I play with this ability more.

If that bears out, we may be better off farming one of these weapons for Wrath:

Merciless Gladiator's Slicer
Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler
Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver
Breeching Comet
Heartless
Netherbane
Talon of Azshara
Rising Tide

More testing needs to be done, of course.

◊ Cathela · 07/24/08, 3:38 PM

Originally Posted by Marcos

Thanks!

Now I'm just left wondering whether they will eventually give Righteous Defense the same GCD benefit as other taunts, ie. Taunt, Death Grip and Growl. This is, of course, assuming that I didn't misread another post stating that Death Grip did not trigger the GCD.

Yeah, this definitely needs to change. Having RD on the GCD wasn't too big a deal when the tanking rotation was HS->Cons->Judge/Seal->sit on your ass for 6 seconds->repeat, but now that we're going to be spending every GCD on some kind of ability while tanking, we're going to need more freedom to RD anytime.

I tanked Utgarde Keep again last night much more assured of how to handle the dungeon. I started off using my Hammer of Judgment but I decided to experiment and use Coldstone Cutlass instead just after the first boss.

Now these numbers are rough but with the hammer I was doing about 200ish holy damage per hit with Hammer of the Righteous. When I switched to the cutlass my damage per hit jumped to about 540ish holy damage per hit. Keep in mind this is hitting up to three targets every three seconds for about 140ish mana.

540 damage a pop is about what you'd expect for that weapon with ~1400AP, so it sounds like HotR is doing the correct damage in at least some cases.

Mordekhuul · 07/24/08, 4:29 PM

Are any of you leveling as prot in beta? I am wondering how much better or worse it is than leveling prot is in TBC.

jere · 07/24/08, 4:35 PM

Originally Posted by GSH

I'm not sure this would be good. Baseline 2 Strength = 1 Block Value. Between Redoubt, Shield Specialization and Holy Shield we block an awful lot. Strength might actually turn out to be an effective *mitigation* stat as well as a threat stat through Hammer of the Righteous, the new Seal scaling, and Shield of Righteousness.

We may end up primarily using Strength for threat and mitigation, and Stamina for threat (indirectly through Spell Power conversion) and health. This would allow us to gear using warrior plate defense gear. Take a look at the Cobalt blacksmithing armour. Imo, that style of armor may end up being very powerful Protection gear.

I think he is implying with that change, that we would be able to spec into DS to get to Deflection in ret, leaving Benediction in the protection tree as an optional talent. If I understood him correctly.

MCHamster · 07/24/08, 5:49 PM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

CS can't proc any damage seals (and I've never taken the time to test the others).

It has been for me.

Seal of Command Proc one
Seal of Command Proc two

It has happened to me numerous times, but Crusader Strike has been accompanied by a Seal of Command hit many times over my beta experience. These two are just from last night when I decided to try and duplicate it.

Gevlin · 07/24/08, 5:55 PM

It would help if you had time stamps in your log. Is it possible that SoC is just landing before the Melee swing its procing off of?